An AU Azeroth without the Orcs...

[haiyken]

yes the elves were needed for victory, but they key of the story was getting them to get their act together. so much less could have been lost if they had gotten their act together faster, or even had had their act together before the legion arrived.

which is exactly the point, they had no reason to have their act together.


the horde vs the alliance conflict leads to much stronger and bigger standing armies than the alternative: the individual human kingdoms had some conflict but never that much. the individual orc clans had infighting but never to the level of total war.

The first Legion invasion during the War of the Ancients was only made possible by Azshara. The Legion didn't arrived out of nowhere. The Kaldorei were pretty together at the point and only Azshara and the Highborne were going against the rest, using more (and too much) arcane magic that it did upset Wild Gods like Cenarius, who was otherwise pretty happy with the unity of the Kaldorei with the nature of the world.

Also, the War of the Ancients didn't last for thay long. I couldn't find an exact timeline but maybe a few months at the most, with the initial invasion by Hakkar not being noticed. The Kaldorei Rebellion was pretty effective, same with rallying the dragonflights and the Wild Gods. I honestly think they were pretty effective in pushing back the Legion. They already had a military force used for fighting the trolls all accross the continent, meaning they were prepared.

I don't really understand your overall take on the Night Elfs. From what we know in the lore, they were a formidable civilization, especially before the Sundering. It's really possible they were, then, more powerful and greater in number than the Alliance and the Horde combined.

[Clone]

Erm... without the orcs, Legion wouldn't even manage to enter Azeroth for the 3rd time.

Remember who killed Cenarius? And how? Did you play WC 3?

They were already there before Cenarius was killed.

[Hellobolis]

But can we say that with all the losses they incur fighting themselves?

Sure hte survivors are stronger and more experienced for the battles they endured, however each of these groups have more than half their populations wiped out and considerable power losses too. Can we honestly say they needed that to win? They'd be stronger iwth more people and power - and may have found a means.

think of it like world war 2. in a few short years more weapons technology was developed than in decades since. more tanks/soldiers/planes were produced per year than in a decade now.

sure there are massive drawbacks to a war economy too, but war fighting capability was the highest it's ever been.

[Palapop]

They were already there before Cenarius was killed.

Who? The Legion? Or the Orcs?

Yes to both. But Cenarius wouldnt be killed if there was no orcs.

[Hellobolis]

The first Legion invasion during the War of the Ancients was only made possible by Azshara. The Legion didn't arrived out of nowhere. The Kaldorei were pretty together at the point and only Azshara and the Highborne were going against the rest, using more (and too much) arcane magic that it did upset Wild Gods like Cenarius, who was otherwise pretty happy with the unity of the Kaldorei with the nature of the world.

Also, the War of the Ancients didn't last for thay long. I couldn't find an exact timeline but maybe a few months at the most, with the initial invasion by Hakkar not being noticed. The Kaldorei Rebellion was pretty effective, same with rallying the dragonflights and the Wild Gods. I honestly think they were pretty effective in pushing back the Legion. They already had a military force used for fighting the trolls all accross the continent, meaning they were prepared.

I don't really understand your overall take on the Night Elfs. From what we know in the lore, they were a formidable civilization, especially before the Sundering. It's really possible they were, then, more powerful and greater in number than the Alliance and the Horde combined.

they weren't formidable. they just had OP magic from using the well unrestrained (and that entire force was basically usurped by the legion at the start of the invasion).

only 1 elven lord (ravencrest) kept a proper military force. all the others actively held military efforts back by their delusional notions of grandeur. it took god knows how many elven lives before they even considered accepting help from "filthy lesser races". lots of stuff like that until they were desperate at hyjal and were willing to listen to the people who had a clue what to do.

if the elves had been remotely prepared they wouldn't have been pushed back all the way to hyjal before resistance became effective.

[Daedius]

Instead of dealing with the Horde you would be dealing with the Swarm, a conglomerate of Gnomes fed up from the decades of abuse at the hands of the bored 'Alliance' (which only existed to tackle the Orcs/Horde).

[Beloren]

think of it like world war 2. in a few short years more weapons technology was developed than in decades since. more tanks/soldiers/planes were produced per year than in a decade now.

sure there are massive drawbacks to a war economy too, but war fighting capability was the highest it's ever been.

Ah but can we say war fighting capability would not have advanced without the conflicts?

Take the years since WW2, we've had no major global wars, but the dominant nations have been increasingly improving and sharpening both their arsenal and tools for fighting war.

The same is reflected in the story of the night elves, since eating the trolls they had no major wars, yet advancement and development continued at alarming speeds. Same with the high elves in Quel'thalas. And the Darnassians in Kalimdor, without conflicts constantly kept themselves sharp and battle ready for the Legion's return.

yes the blood elves are stronger now for having gone through Wc3, but they'd have had more power and arms without it - but then it's probably impossible to say.

I see your point nonetheless - is there anyway we can be certain? or is this something that a writer simply has to choose as the result because it can go either way. You may not be at war, but you can definitely sharpen up and train extensively.. war destroys, can anyone say they are better off after losing the majority of their population?

Surely the only gain of such tragedy is learning the lessons on avoiding repeating the mistakes that led to it so that it would never have to happen again?

[NatePsy]

Erm... without the orcs, Legion wouldn't even manage to enter Azeroth for the 3rd time.

Remember who killed Cenarius? And how? Did you play WC 3?

The Legion would have still managed to find their way to Azeroth, Outland wasn't the first planet either. The Burning Legion went from planet to planet taking over, the Legion expansion gave us a pretty good idea of how the Burning Legion got shit done on other planets. Remember the Warlock and Demon Hunter Class Halls? The Horde races would've been wiped out by the ignorance of the Human kingdoms and they'd have nobody to help defend Azeroth aside from the races they did have prior to the Horde forming.

[haiyken]

they weren't formidable. they just had OP magic from using the well unrestrained (and that entire force was basically usurped by the legion at the start of the invasion).

only 1 elven lord (ravencrest) kept a proper military force. all the others actively held military efforts back by their delusional notions of grandeur. it took god knows how many elven lives before they even considered accepting help from "filthy lesser races". lots of stuff like that until they were desperate at hyjal and were willing to listen to the people who had a clue what to do.

if the elves had been remotely prepared they wouldn't have been pushed back all the way to hyjal before resistance became effective.

How weren't the Kaldorei not formidable? I'm actually confused. They were the dominant civilization on the planet, with the most powerful source of magic under their control, amazingly advanced cities all accross the continent, a deep and respectful connection to the literal gods of nature that lived amongst them. I don't know if it can be more formidable than that. I'm not saying they were perfect, but in many regards it was the highest point of their civilization, just before Azshara and the Highborne decided to use the Well of Eternity for themselves. Formidable doesn't always mean good. Of course they had issues, racism being one of them.

You make the point of the "OP magic from using the well unrestrained" like they didn't deserve its power or something. I don't understand why. They were made by the Well of Eternity. Elves used to be Trolls and it's only thanks to the Well that they were able to evolve and develop as the Kaldorei. It's not like they stole it or it was magically given to them as a cheat code. It actually part of who they were, the source of their own immortality and the source of many many aspects of magic, even nature magic, on Azeroth. The Well of Eternity is literally Azeroth's lifeblood seeping through the surface of the planet.

Also, until Azshara decided to forsake her people, the Kaldorei didn't need to be prepared to anything. They had enough of a military force to deal with the Trolls and other threats, and keep order. The simple fact that a resistance was easily and quickly formed at the beginning of the invasion shows that the Kaldorei were ready to fight back immediately at something they didn't even understand. We don't have a lot of informations about it but we know that Ravencrest was leading an actual army against the Legion and that Jarod later took command of that army. We just don't know the scale of it, but same with the Legion's invasion.

I'm confused because it's quite clear in the lore that the Kaldorei were successful against the Legion. The Sundering was a side effect to closing the Legion's portal nobody could have predicted at that time, and it was honestly a better solution than just dying to the Legion.

[Vaedan]

Total Legion victory. Without the Horde present at the battle of Mt. Hyjal Archimonde would have succeeded in draining the World Tree, decimating the mortal resistance and then either succeeding in usurping Sargeras (unlikely) or more likely being forced to summon him only for Sargeras then to corrupt the World Soul, turning Azeroth into Argus 2 and all native life dying off.

Debatable. Without orcs, there would be no Lich King. No Scourge invasion of Lordaeron. Nobody to summon Archimonde. There still would be Grand Alliance. Night elves would not surfer great losses to the Scourge And corrupted orcs either...

[Makabreska]

It was already explained what would have happened.

The human kingdoms would kill each other, because there was not an common enemy like the horde.

Without the orcs, taurens would be exterminated by the quilboar and the centaurs, the darkspear by the murlocs, there would be no horde or alliance to fight in the third war helping the night elves, they would Lose and the legion would conquer everything.

Plus, without Broxxigar the night elves would had lost in the first legion invasion

This amazing feeling, to know that your entire tribe got wiped out by a goddamn murlocs.

[Beloren]

How weren't the Kaldorei not formidable? I'm actually confused. They were the dominant civilization on the planet, with the most powerful source of magic under their control, amazingly advanced cities all accross the continent, a deep and respectful connection to the literal gods of nature that lived amongst them. I don't know if it can be more formidable than that. I'm not saying they were perfect, but in many regards it was the highest point of their civilization, just before Azshara and the Highborne decided to use the Well of Eternity for themselves. Formidable doesn't always mean good. Of course they had issues, racism being one of them.

Indeed

It is flawed logic to think they weren't formidable because of the OP well of eternity. IT takes something to be able to understand and use that power, and acocrding ot the story are they not the source of all the magic around and all the advancements that have resulted from it? From an extra-narrative perspective, they are the ones established as the foremost pioneering race, their pioneering spirt continues in the high elves who are a development of the night elves.

You can't attribute every success of the kaldorei to the high elves, but you can every success of the high elves to the kaldorei because that's who they originally are.

The problem with the kaldorei is that they are clearly written as overpowered in the narrative, but drastically under written in the game, this has been the source of much fan ire against the writers concerning them. It's like blizzard lost the will to write a powered race properly so opted for the easier nerf bat.

Or maybe they changed their philosophy at the start of wow and felt every race had to be the same, which was lways unrealitc and stupid - part of hte fun of these fantasy projects is great disparaging inequalities and the under doges still able to somehow come out on top or occassionally do incredible thing. by making the races all equal they remove that.

I guess they couldn't figure out how to balance the stats of the players start without making the races equal, but that was also an easy thing to overcome, you simply let it be known that the player character is a very talented individual. Amognst a super powered race like a night elf, this is not remarkable at all, but amognst average joe humans, this is incredible remarkable. heroes are the same level, but their corresponding races are not.

I always found it stupid that a human could compete with an orc in terms of sheer strength or a tauren, , but he shouldn't be able to, but that doesn't mean you can't have exceptional humans with exceptional strength or skill, and brains too to match any elf.

You make the point of the "OP magic from using the well unrestrained" like they didn't deserve its power or something. I don't understand why. They were made by the Well of Eternity. Elves used to be Trolls and it's only thanks to the Well that they were able to evolve and develop as the Kaldorei. It's not like they stole it or it was magically given to them as a cheat code. It actually part of who they were, the source of their own immortality and the source of many many aspects of magic, even nature magic, on Azeroth. The Well of Eternity is literally Azeroth's lifeblood seeping through the surface of the planet.

Indeed, they actually learned it, and they created a harmonious society that reaped the benefits tot he best level - according to the narrative. I guess the power of the well sometimes stops people from seeing what is truly remarkable there (and overpowered)... how many people have access to great power and instead dominate and oppress and control, losing it.. whiles Azshara does lose it, it happens at the very end, can we really downplay their achievements for thousands of years - who can successfully create a unified and harmonious world spanning empire - it's an incredible feat, it takes much more than raw power to do that.

But the writers gave them all thee elements. It's likely the priesthood that united their spirits, the mages that provided teh wonders and advancements, and the druidic core (which even while they left nature magic in groves) was the underpinning of their benevolent and harmonious tendencies.

if anything it is the power that corrupted, not t what made them great. I wonder if Elune allowed them to power up because they were a race worthy of using such power for good. According to the story they do exactly that, and would have done much better if they didn't get so arrogant. But was it addiction that caused the arrogance? or a mortal failing of "power" going to your head?


I notice the high elves seem to correct hat error when they continue with elven civilization. and even the Hyjal group of night elves seem to have learned the lessons from the past even though up till the start of wow, they don't continue their elven civilization. I wonder.

Also, until Azshara decided to forsake her people, the Kaldorei didn't need to be prepared to anything. They had enough of a military force to deal with the Trolls and other threats, and keep order. The simple fact that a resistance was easily and quickly formed at the beginning of the invasion shows that the Kaldorei were ready to fight back immediately at something they didn't even understand. We don't have a lot of informations about it but we know that Ravencrest was leading an actual army against the Legion and that Jarod later took command of that army. We just don't know the scale of it, but same with the Legion's invasion.

I'm confused because it's quite clear in the lore that the Kaldorei were successful against the Legion. The Sundering was a side effect to closing the Legion's portal nobody could have predicted at that time, and it was honestly a better solution than just dying to the Legion.

Probably kaldorei hate. I use to hate them too. Realised it's pointless it's just part of the story, and a shoddy one that has left me super disappointed recently. But then it was never a master work either.

[Hellobolis]

Ah but can we say war fighting capability would not have advanced without the conflicts?

Take the years since WW2, we've had no major global wars, but the dominant nations have been increasingly improving and sharpening both their arsenal and tools for fighting war.

not really. what they have mostly done is make fancy toys good for beating up people hiding in caves.

in ww2 they made mass production weapons where it doesn't matter if you loose 1000 of them.
post ww2 they make sportcar weapon where if you lose a few you are immediately crippled.

almost none of the sportcar weapons have combat experience against a opponent capable of fighting back.

iron dome is another good example: that's a weapon that actually sees combat use and therefore cost effectiveness and ease of use are high priorities, it also has very little feature creep it just does what it's supposed to do. compare that to US missile defense systems that are very expensive, have never been used, and have to hit more and more complex targets over time.

the US is very stagnated with military development, lots of bureaucracy and politics involved. meanwhile the underdogs who are actually experiencing pressure have to think out of the box. russia has to to come up with clever solutions on a small budget. china needs a counter to carriers while not having carriers itself for another decade or two so they just build one.

and same with e.g. intel and amd. intel was top dog for years so got lazy and stopped innovating, and now that amd struck back they are extremely slow to adapt because they lost their edge.

- - - Updated - - -

How weren't the Kaldorei not formidable? I'm actually confused. They were the dominant civilization on the planet, with the most powerful source of magic under their control, amazingly advanced cities all accross the continent, a deep and respectful connection to the literal gods of nature that lived amongst them. I don't know if it can be more formidable than that. I'm not saying they were perfect, but in many regards it was the highest point of their civilization, just before Azshara and the Highborne decided to use the Well of Eternity for themselves. Formidable doesn't always mean good. Of course they had issues, racism being one of them.

they were formidable at one point. then they got used to it and fell into the trap of becoming stagnant and decadent while relying on their one trick pony.

if the entire night elven army had been on the level of black rook hold, the war would have taken a very different turn.
if they hadn't been so racist and xenophobic, the war would have taken a different turn too.

You make the point of the "OP magic from using the well unrestrained" like they didn't deserve its power or something. I don't understand why. They were made by the Well of Eternity. Elves used to be Trolls and it's only thanks to the Well that they were able to evolve and develop as the Kaldorei. It's not like they stole it or it was magically given to them as a cheat code. It actually part of who they were, the source of their own immortality and the source of many many aspects of magic, even nature magic, on Azeroth. The Well of Eternity is literally Azeroth's lifeblood seeping through the surface of the planet.

the well was their oil. their entire civilization was founded on it. and much like oil, they ignored the "environmental damage" it caused until it was too late.

Also, until Azshara decided to forsake her people, the Kaldorei didn't need to be prepared to anything.

yes EXACTLY. that is the entire argument. they were weaker than they would have been if they had a proper rival.

I'm confused because it's quite clear in the lore that the Kaldorei were successful against the Legion. The Sundering was a side effect to closing the Legion's portal nobody could have predicted at that time, and it was honestly a better solution than just dying to the Legion.

they won. i wouldn't call it a success though. quite the pyrrhic victory. the legion portal that caused the sundering wouldn't have existed if the demon invasion was contained earlier.

[DatToffer]

Erm... without the orcs, Legion wouldn't even manage to enter Azeroth for the 3rd time.

Remember who killed Cenarius? And how? Did you play WC 3?

Cenarius ass had to be saved by his daddy in the War of the Ancients, do you think he would have had a chance against Archimonde AND Mannoroth ?

[panda040]

Whos to say with the legion defeated, we can't just kill all the orcs now? I welcome our peaceful cow neighbors

[Kyphael]

Wouldn't that be whatever version of Azeroth exists in the same timeline as AU Draenor? I don't think The Orcs from AU Draenor ever went to that universe's respective Azeroth. It would be interesting. King Arthas Menethil of Lordaeron? I'd like to play in that timeline.

[Ardenaso]

I believe that without the orcs as a common enemy the human nations would have warred with each other

I think this Warcraft 3 custom game captures it well:

https://www.epicwar.com/maps/263440/

https://www.epicwar.com/maps/301794/

[StationaryHawk]

Debatable. Without orcs, there would be no Lich King. No Scourge invasion of Lordaeron. Nobody to summon Archimonde. There still would be Grand Alliance. Night elves would not surfer great losses to the Scourge And corrupted orcs either...

How so? We're not aware of anything special about Ner'zhul that made him the only candidate for Lich King. With the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne still in hand, someone else would have taken his place.

[Feanoro]

We'll never know because of the nonsensical whitewashing Blizzard did.

"OK, so the orcs made two Legion invasions possible, slaughtered millions, and destroyed multiple kingdoms, but! Uhhhh.... without them, Azeroth couldn't have stood against the Legion! Yeah, that's it! Please forget that the Night Elves and their allies stopped the first invasion."

They crapped out that cheap line about the orcs without remotely thinking it through or explaining further. It's incredibly callous.

"All that death and destruction should be forgiven, those people probably didn't deserve to live anyway! Their deaths allowed the orcs to be there on Mount Hyjal!"

[Daronokk]

"OK, so the orcs made two Legion invasions possible, slaughtered millions, and destroyed multiple kingdoms, but! Uhhhh.... without them, Azeroth couldn't have stood against the Legion! Yeah, that's it! Please forget that the Night Elves and their allies stopped the first invasion."

You mean those Night Elves that were responsible for the first invasion by summoning the Burning Legion in the first place?

It was this invasion that made Sargeras meet the Orcish race in the form of Broxigar and is the reason the Orcs were 'recruited' / corrupted. Two can play this game, the Night Elves are the reason everything is f*cked. Or similarly you can blame the Draenei for leading the Burning Legion to the Orcish homeworld.