About Sylvanas and her fans

[Stardrift]

She was interesting in that we didn't know what her morals and motives were. She had mystery to her, and a pretty cool theme to boot.

But, unfortunately it was dANUSer who took up the mantle of writing, and all mysteries got absolutely shat on with verbal diarrhea and nonsense.

Sylvanas has gone from a character, to a caricature since BFA. It is just so strange to see a character from the background unveil themselves from the shadows to reveal.. that they're just some stupid pawn with a hard-on for genocide.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is the only correct position. Arthas was the face of both the RTS expansion and the most popular MMO expansion, having starred in two WC3 campaigns and having many other characters' stories rotate around him and him dying still didn't have a major impact on the game's viability. Systems and gameplay are king, the lore is a side dish for people like those of us replying to this thread to bitch about on forums.

@TheFirstOnes @Diaphin

BFA Sylvanas does nothing except give evil one liners and fail. The only inkling of depth she has is when she has that little crack telling Saurfang she trusted him and sounds genuinely torn up about it. The real odd man out between Cata to Legion Sylvanas who's about preserving herself through benefit for the Forsaken and later Sylvanas who's motivated by bodycount and abstract cosmic matters though is BTS. Her internal monologue then and what she ultimately means to do are completely different and she shows ignorance of everything from her appointment to Warchief to the Jailer to even whether she wanted a war, which in BTS is cast as being something she'd have avoided if Varian was still in charge and that she meant to end by splitting Alliance lands between the Horde instead of appeasing a cosmic kill counter.

None of this means SL Sylvanas is any better, bro. She’s just as bad as BFA Sylvanas. Prolly cause of the fact Zovaal is fucking with her soul, etc. So, I mean...

Not trying to excuse shit here btw. I’m well aware she’s still evil asf. I’m just saying...

Also, Arthas was only a single face in WC3, and the main face in WoTLK. WC3 had multiple faces, and the first 2 WC games have nothing to do with Arthas. If anything, WC’s 1-3 merely set up our adventure.

- - - Updated - - -

She was interesting in that we didn't know what her morals and motives were. She had mystery to her, and a pretty cool theme to boot.

But, unfortunately it was dANUSer who took up the mantle of writing, and all mysteries got absolutely shat on with verbal diarrhea and nonsense.

Sylvanas has gone from a character, to a caricature since BFA. It is just so strange to see a character from the background unveil themselves from the shadows to reveal.. that they're just some stupid pawn with a hard-on for genocide.

Crazy how everyone and their mother knew Sylvanas and the Forsaken were evil asf since WC3.

[Kithelle]

Quite often, I see Sylvanas' fans claim that if she is killed, Blizzard will lose half or even most of the players and therefore they will never do it. And I have one little question. Do you yourself believe in this nonsense? No, really, you think that there are so many fans of Sylvanas among the players that it will be a huge blow for Blizzard if she dies?
I mean, this is what it looks like in reality:
A minority of all players are interested in lore
The minority of those who are interested in lore love Sylvanas
An even smaller part of those who love Sylvanas will actually quit the game because of her death.

But this is just my opinion, so I think I should create a poll to find out the truth.

Aren't you funny yourself when you say that your goddess won't die because too many players love her? I mean, Arthas had (and still has) a bigger fan base and he died anyway.


Of course, the real reason Sylvanas will never die is that her main fanboy Steve Danuser has jumped into the lead narrative designer, but that's a different story.

Do I think people will quit if she is kiboshed? Yes
Do I think it's enough to kill the game? No

[RasAlhage]

The question is not quite correct and accurate.
As a fan of Sylvanas, I don't mind her dying. In the end, the story of every good character must have a conclusion.
The question is how it will happen.
If she leaves victorious, having achieved her goals, so that the loyalists can honor her and be proud of her - it will be a good move.

[Kaleredar]

three words:

Undead.
elf.
titties.


That is why people like her. I think she's an insufferable character. Ever since she started her plotting and scheming she's been a character without a clearly defined want, (read, since cataclysm) which is not just key to having a good character, but to having any kind of character at all.

No matter how much one dislikes Anduin or Thrall or Jaina or whomever for being too "goody goody" at least they have clearly defined wants.


And that's ignoring the story bending over backwards to service her at every point.

[Vrinara]

I personally believe that if Blizz kills Sylvanas off. Those "Fans" you mentioned will continue to play the game. I mean come on. We know these types of people. They don't like something, they complain and whine about how something sucks, they threaten to quit, and don't do it, OR! OR! They quit for a day and start playing a day later. This is a common practice amongst many communities lol specially the WoW Community. Let's be completely honest. Most people who do this are tards and do this not just with WoW. But with many MANY other games. And when they say "BlIzZaRD wIlL LoSe hALf tHEiR AuDiEnCE" They mainly mean themselves. but Blizz likely wont lose the "Audience" The tard claims.

[bagina]

Sylvanas is holding me hostage, I simply cannot not like her. No matter how shitty the story involving her becomes, and believe me it is fucking shitty.

As for playing WoW. It's not like I already play much WoW in the first place, after she's gone it'll be just another thing on the list of the bad that slowly begin to outweigh the good of WoW, for me personally.

I know for sure I won't be coming to forums anymore, because I use it exclusively to shitpost about Sylvanas.

[Makabreska]

Well. simply put. No

Well, better say your goodbyes, becasue all signs show that it's her last xpac.

[mysticx]

The question is not quite correct and accurate.
As a fan of Sylvanas, I don't mind her dying. In the end, the story of every good character must have a conclusion.
The question is how it will happen.
If she leaves victorious, having achieved her goals, so that the loyalists can honor her and be proud of her - it will be a good move.

The problem is that like faction war itself, the "loyalists vs everybody else"-divide has become too deep, if Sylvanas doesn't get the send-off the loyalists want (Honour and proud of her for what, exactly? Attempted genocide? Futile war? Being in kahoots with the big bad of the expansion?), everybody else will be upset, and if Sylvanas gets bumped off like the villain she has quite clearly become, her loyalists will be upset.

Yet another corner these writers have painted themselves in, i'm curious how they'll try to wriggle out of this one, but it's morbid curiosity at this point.

[Jackstraw]

Sylvanas at the moment can't be salvaged.

It was one of my favorite characters back in TFT, way back when. And Thrall aside, it's the only remaining member of the original Horde cast.
And it's sad really how those beloved characters have been taken to further the shock of the week, whereas the Alliance cast is all but intact with great returns like Turalyon and Alleria and Khadgar, with Varian dying an heroic death.

It's not a Horde vs. Alliance take, rather an overall shame. I'd bet any Alliance and W3 fan would be sad overall for the state of those characters and the fact that Sylvanas is next on the chopping block - literally has to be, she's undergoing another character arc which is the exact copy as her first, only now she has the agency to die the martyr's death.

[Zuben]

At this point the writing team has done Sylvanas so dirty fewer people care what happens to her. It was the same with Nathanos; he used to be a legend, but was quickly reduced to an unlikable character we were glad to see die off.

Frankly I'm already looking forward to the next storyline that is concerned with non-Sylvanas matters.

[Pheraz]

Ultra boring character (im) with some people having (maybe) the illusion she is cool, which (maybe) comes from the looks or the "dominant" voice.
I am just sick how much space she takes in the story. She can live or die I just don't care. If she lives she should go back to her emo city and stay out of our cinematics.

[Sondrelk]

Sylvanas should have died at the end of WotLK. That is when her story peaked and reached a natural conclusion. All she did in hindsight is stunt the Forsaken storyline by binding it to herself, meaning the story had to bend to what she wanted instead of what the Forsaken might want.
I think fans of Sylvanas since Warcraft can at least agree that her story hasnt really had much of a point ever since Arthas died.

Besides, what has been said here before is absolutely true regarding Arthas. He is arguably a far more famous character but the game still didnt die with him, and I imagine that more people loved WotLK for actually ending with his death rather than wishing it didn't.

And despite what people mightsay regarding WotLK being the peak, the graphs showed a distinct lack of growth in players after launch with the playerbase starting to shrink sometime during Ulduar/Crusader, only showing a marginal increase in players that presumably came back for the final raid.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas should have died at the end of WotLK. That is when her story peaked and reached a natural conclusion. All she did in hindsight is stunt the Forsaken storyline by binding it to herself, meaning the story had to bend to what she wanted instead of what the Forsaken might want.
I think fans of Sylvanas since Warcraft can at least agree that her story hasnt really had much of a point ever since Arthas died.

Nope, I completely disagree. Her and the Forsaken's story didn't reach any kind of thematic conclusion in Wrath - she confronted Arthas and failed, not out of a flaw of her character but simply not being strong enough in a 1v1 DBZ fight, with Putress' actions ensuring that the Forsaken never actually got a shot at what was their entire goal up to that point. The narrative role of Arthas' past victims raised into undeath was passed over to the Knights of the Ebon Blade, a less developed pastiche of the Forsaken, whereas actually killing Arthas was handed to Generic Human Paladin #4. It was a stroke of unusual genius on Blizzard's part going into Cataclysm not only to acknowledge all of that but to make it the core of her and the Forsaken's story that they got gypped out of their (un)life's purpose,but to make these questions essential. Now what do they do, why still exist and what is their self-image if not victims of Arthas out to get him? Rather than burying this the way they did other huge societal changes, they made answering these questions the entire point of Cataclysm, starting with Sylvanas's short story, which is equally as direct in tackling exactly these 'what now?' style questions. Edge of Night both sets up why Sylvanas doesn't just off herself - she does, and also why she should continue bothering with a people who up until now were an instrument to achieve her goal - she has no choice, otherwise she'd burn in hell. A stable society that has a reason to coexist and won't just collapse at the slightest outside pressure aids both her and them.

This is what we see in Cataclysm - the Forsaken ditch most of the self-pity and their conception of undeath as all negative and themselves as being played out, existing only to take revenge on Arthas to instead reclaim aspects of their identity. The Lordaeronian patriotism that BTS pretends was a Calia innovation and was purely nostalgic stems from here and was much more interesting there. The Forsaken form a conception of themselves as an extant people with a historical claim to their land and who mean to continue existing in it, with undeath becoming a transhumanist state that they view as superior to being alive and who mean to inhabit the world long-term. This isn't some subtle point - it's explicit text with quests titled as ambiguously as The New Forsaken or Lordaeron. As far as WoW storytelling goes, it's a fairly complex story of her and them moving on from a failure they'd tied too much of their wishes and also how digging themselves out of a hole and self-pity and making a positive self-conception of themselves doesn't make them better for the world. The Cataclysm Forsaken feel much better about themselves and are a lot happier, they're also more complex given the whole new aspect necromancy brings over, but they're also much worse for everyone around them. Ditto you can't have moments of villain to villain antagonism like Sylvanas and Garrosh's clash or Sylvanas refusing for entirely practical reasons to join in his offensive because it'd mean the end of her and her kingdom and purposefully declining to expand past the historical borders of Lordaeron.

None of this means SL Sylvanas is any better, bro. She’s just as bad as BFA Sylvanas. Prolly cause of the fact Zovaal is fucking with her soul, etc. So, I mean...

Not trying to excuse shit here btw. I’m well aware she’s still evil asf. I’m just saying...

Also, Arthas was only a single face in WC3, and the main face in WoTLK. WC3 had multiple faces, and the first 2 WC games have nothing to do with Arthas. If anything, WC’s 1-3 merely set up our adventure.

The two major differences with Shadowlands Sylvanas compared to BFA is that she's obviously just a lackey, which the narrative claims reduces her accountability and that we actually see her own mental process while she commits acts - hell, she'll even get a book from her view. In BFA we never got any insight into why she did anything and she never had an emotional reaction to anything going on except that bit with Saurfang I mentioned. It's about how the character is presented.

Arthas was on the box of TFT and the story culminates with what happens to him while otherwise rotating around attempts on the fallout of his actions. He had two campaigns and while I agree that the RTSes in general lay the foundation and the first two don't feature him, WC1 was extremely arch and most people haven't even bothered looking up WC2 hence why there's an alarming amount of people who think the Horde started with Thrall.

[Monekop]

I watched an interesting youtube speculation thread about what happens next. I am not big into youtubers so I cannot link it but the theory was something along the lines of

Arbiter awakens at the end of the Sylvanas fight, when Sylvanas dies. She is immediately "judged" by the arbiter who only looks at the deeds, misdeeds, thoughts, accomplishments, and failures of a soul in LIFE. Which means she will be judged on everything she did up to the point she was skewered by Frostmourne.

Based on her life to that point she will go to Bastion. At that point she can give us the inside edge on the Jailer, as far as she knows it.

could be right, could be wrong. I dont see Sylvanas just ending, she will play a part but gradually deminish as she becomes less relevant with the 9.2+ story line

[Unholyvamp]

Well, better say your goodbyes, becasue all signs show that it's her last xpac.

Ok i've reconsidered
Her being away i can handle, as long as she doesn't end up dead.
Like having Illidan's fate or something would be ideal.

[VinceVega]

I am quite ambivalent towards Sylvannas. I think she had a godd run which came to a good conclusion now. But i would not permanently kill her off. Just put her to the side like Illidan.

Towards OP: A minority will love her. But also A minority hates her. Most people don't care about her either way or simply tend to enjoy the story without running into a forum scremaing SJW, Waifu, Wahman, Mary Sue and all the other bullshit coming up left and right.

You cannot get a proper value for the general opinion on MMO-Champion. For that you would have to go into the game and make a poll with a popup. As most people don't even go to wowhead to look stuff up. They just play the game.

[TheFirstOnes]

Nope, I completely disagree. Her and the Forsaken's story didn't reach any kind of thematic conclusion in Wrath - she confronted Arthas and failed, not out of a flaw of her character but simply not being strong enough in a 1v1 DBZ fight, with Putress' actions ensuring that the Forsaken never actually got a shot at what was their entire goal up to that point. The narrative role of Arthas' past victims raised into undeath was passed over to the Knights of the Ebon Blade, a less developed pastiche of the Forsaken, whereas actually killing Arthas was handed to Generic Human Paladin #4. It was a stroke of unusual genius on Blizzard's part going into Cataclysm not only to acknowledge all of that but to make it the core of her and the Forsaken's story that they got gypped out of their (un)life's purpose,but to make these questions essential. Now what do they do, why still exist and what is their self-image if not victims of Arthas out to get him? Rather than burying this the way they did other huge societal changes, they made answering these questions the entire point of Cataclysm, starting with Sylvanas's short story, which is equally as direct in tackling exactly these 'what now?' style questions. Edge of Night both sets up why Sylvanas doesn't just off herself - she does, and also why she should continue bothering with a people who up until now were an instrument to achieve her goal - she has no choice, otherwise she'd burn in hell. A stable society that has a reason to coexist and won't just collapse at the slightest outside pressure aids both her and them.

This is what we see in Cataclysm - the Forsaken ditch most of the self-pity and their conception of undeath as all negative and themselves as being played out, existing only to take revenge on Arthas to instead reclaim aspects of their identity. The Lordaeronian patriotism that BTS pretends was a Calia innovation and was purely nostalgic stems from here and was much more interesting there. The Forsaken form a conception of themselves as an extant people with a historical claim to their land and who mean to continue existing in it, with undeath becoming a transhumanist state that they view as superior to being alive and who mean to inhabit the world long-term. This isn't some subtle point - it's explicit text with quests titled as ambiguously as The New Forsaken or Lordaeron. As far as WoW storytelling goes, it's a fairly complex story of her and them moving on from a failure they'd tied too much of their wishes and also how digging themselves out of a hole and self-pity and making a positive self-conception of themselves doesn't make them better for the world. The Cataclysm Forsaken feel much better about themselves and are a lot happier, they're also more complex given the whole new aspect necromancy brings over, but they're also much worse for everyone around them. Ditto you can't have moments of villain to villain antagonism like Sylvanas and Garrosh's clash or Sylvanas refusing for entirely practical reasons to join in his offensive because it'd mean the end of her and her kingdom and purposefully declining to expand past the historical borders of Lordaeron.



The two major differences with Shadowlands Sylvanas compared to BFA is that she's obviously just a lackey, which the narrative claims reduces her accountability and that we actually see her own mental process while she commits acts - hell, she'll even get a book from her view. In BFA we never got any insight into why she did anything and she never had an emotional reaction to anything going on except that bit with Saurfang I mentioned. It's about how the character is presented.

Arthas was on the box of TFT and the story culminates with what happens to him while otherwise rotating around attempts on the fallout of his actions. He had two campaigns and while I agree that the RTSes in general lay the foundation and the first two don't feature him, WC1 was extremely arch and most people haven't even bothered looking up WC2 hence why there's an alarming amount of people who think the Horde started with Thrall.

“We never got any insight in what she did or why she did it”

That’s why a story progresses. That’s why SL’s plot is a continuation of the BFA plot.

[Soon-TM]

Well, the poll is going places as of now, with just a ~15% of people saying that they would quit if she was to bite the dust... And in the Lore subforum of MMOC, on top. I think OP has his/her question answered by now.

The thing is, I just don't see Danuser & co. killing her for good, not only due to his personal fetish favouritism, but also because Sylvanas is the only character who moves the story forward, awful as it may be. If Sylvanas dies (or is merely put in standby for one or two expansions), who among the current cast of Marvel heroes is going to do anything? Andy Sue, or any of his orbiters? Not going to happen. The Horde lolcouncil? Maybe, if they are fine with MoP 3.0

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Im not in love with her but for me its like last interesting character left from Warcraft universe. If shes gone then there will be only some moaning peace-lovers like Baine. Seriously Horde is losing every interesting character and they did not replace them with anyone decent lorewise.

We still have Jaina and Illidan

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Remember when people said they hated Garrosh now look. He's one of the most missed and beloved characters of all time