Deatholme rebuilt as a Void elf city or as capital of San'layn allied race?

[Beloren]

Elves are adults at pretty much the same rate as humans, they usually choose not to have many kids.

Elves should be popping out those babies en mass now, you know, repopulate the species.. but they seem more interested in humans and night elves.

[Combatbutler]

Elves should be popping out those babies en mass now, you know, repopulate the species.. but they seem more interested in humans and night elves.

Dunno I have seen plenty of belf and nightborne kids ingame, other elves are pretty much nonexistent though.

[Beloren]

I can think of scenario tied to Light vs Void expansion. We've seen Void ethereals taking interest in the Sunwell. Being reignated by spark of Naaru, it might prove potent enough to open great rift for Void forces to emerge on Azeroth. There is also a Il'gynoths whisper which I'm not sure was explained yet.

Its survace blaze bright, masking shadows bellow.

I believe it might connect to the Sunwell. My scenario would be different from Alliance and Horde PoV.

Alliance
Void elves discover clues of Void activity in northern Eastern Kingdoms. Alleria sends a group of ren'dorei to investigate. As Void elves arrive to Light's Hope Chapel, they see Paladins fighting the Void. Together, they face the leader of invading forces, a Void ethereals. When they defeat his servants and confront him, he taints paladins with the Void and take control of them. He intends to mind control void elves too, but they are immune. He escapes through Void rift and ren'dorei kill corrupted paladins. Void elves follow the trails of the Void and it leads them to Quel'thalas. As they sneak past blood elves, a Void rifts opens and Void ethereals emerge. Some of Void elves stay behind to fight ethereals, most of them go directly to Quel'danas. They find Sunwell Guardians defeated and Void ethereals trying to transform Sunwell into huge Void rift. Ren'dorei defeat ethereals and Seal the rift, but it turns out that Sunwell was darkened. Blood elves arrive...

Horde
Shamans have visions of encroaching shadows. Lady Liadrin recieves a message from Light's Hope Chapel, requesting aid from her Blood Knights. When they arrive, they find fallen paladins tainted with the Void and broken blade bearing ren'dorei markings. Lady Liadring calls for retreat to Quel'thalas. When they come back home, they find local defense occupied by attacking Void ethereals. There are reports of Attack from both Eversong and Ghostlands. Lady Liadring lead the effort to repel these invaders. Soon, she discovers dying ren'dorei, with last words "Void... Sunwell... The Gateway...". Liadrin gathers her knights and hurry to the Quel'danas, where she finds darkened Sunwell and Void elves.

Possihle conclusions:
1) Hostile end: Blood elves and Void elves fight each other. This conclusion further allienate both groups.
2) Truce: Void elves manage to explain what happened and blood elves let them help.

Possible outcomes:
- Darkened Sunwell might affect some blood elves, transforming some into Void elves.
- Blood elves might consider letting Void elves near Sunwell in order to secure it from future assaults
- Void ethereal activities and darkening of Sunwell might change some parts of Quel'thalas
- magical Addiction might be a problem again.

This is quite interesting too. you and Raven do put out some entertaining stuff.. not that it has any chance of happening, but I do sometimes wonder if your scenarios would happen, they at least shake things up again - but the problem with it is they always have alliance intruding on our stuff, and this is why you guys get a hostile reception from us, if blizzard id it, it would be different, but most of us will never accept your suggestions - I'll be honest and say it's interesting because it brings activity, .. i wish more horde fans came up with scenarios, the vast majority tend to be alliance fan suggested , maybe because there is little motivation since we have every thing we wanted and all we want is a good image i.e. not to be villain batted, and we'll be complete... my problem is that what happens now? wow has become stale in terms of the races... atm,. I did make this topic on a whim, it was a thought that flashed while I was responding in another thread, and thought.. I wonder what others would think of it.

I'm not surprised to see clear faction dividing lines when it comes tot his... factions are ruining wow, fans can't imagine anything outside the borders of their faction. They'll forsake interesting developments because it doesn't favour their faction.

i understand it, but I'm tired of it.

[Chonar]

Blizzard missed the ball completey in Shadowlands regarding San'layn and how their powers obviously stem from Revendreth (with the rest of the Scourge being made up mostly from Maldraxxian powers / knowledge). I feel that if the San'lyan ever would've gotten their time in the spotlight (not too brightly plz it burns) then it wouldve happened with the introduction of Revendreth.

Maybe it'll still happen, I dunno. But with the BFA storyline over and done with, and Revendreth fully explored, I doubt we'll see more Sanlayn stuff any time soon.

[Beloren]

Dunno I have seen plenty of belf and nightborne kids ingame, other elves are pretty much nonexistent though.

Aren't those all pre-war children, orphans in Shattrath and orgrimmar.. not seen new Belf kids.

don't care much for night elf kids though, even if they're friends now, beside, those nightborne babies are all pre-war... saying that I don't see these guys popping out babies either.

Erm, i guess void elves can't have babies, nor can undead elves. Can fel elves have babies?

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard missed the ball completey in Shadowlands regarding San'layn and how their powers obviously stem from Revendreth (with the rest of the Scourge being made up mostly from Maldraxxian powers / knowledge). I feel that if the San'lyan ever would've gotten their time in the spotlight (not too brightly plz it burns) then it wouldve happened with the introduction of Revendreth.

Maybe it'll still happen, I dunno. But with the BFA storyline over and done with, and Revendreth fully explored, I doubt we'll see more Sanlayn stuff any time soon.

I know right.. BFA and then Revendreth.. perfect time for Darkfallen/San'layn. it is interesting though that they didn't give us red eyes customisation to represent dark fallen or allow the undead skins on the DK to be available to represent dark fallen (maybe remove them from the paladin class option ).. but they haven't.. does that mean they intend us to have them later as an allied race?

[username993720]

No. Void elves should keep to Telogrus Rift. Albeit, it should be bigger and more populated. I don't want to see Silvermoon become this dark place. It should always stay sunny and bloomy.

As for the San'layn allied race, who said they are coming? You're more likely to get these as an allied race:

[Vaedan]

This is quite interesting too. you and Raven do put out some entertaining stuff.. not that it has any chance of happening, but I do sometimes wonder if your scenarios would happen, they at least shake things up again - but the problem with it is they always have alliance intruding on our stuff, and this is why you guys get a hostile reception from us, if blizzard id it, it would be different, but most of us will never accept your suggestions - I'll be honest and say it's interesting because it brings activity, .. i wish more horde fans came up with scenarios, the vast majority tend to be alliance fan suggested , maybe because there is little motivation since we have every thing we wanted and all we want is a good image i.e. not to be villain batted, and we'll be complete... my problem is that what happens now? wow has become stale in terms of the races... atm,. I did make this topic on a whim, it was a thought that flashed while I was responding in another thread, and thought.. I wonder what others would think of it.

I'm not surprised to see clear faction dividing lines when it comes tot his... factions are ruining wow, fans can't imagine anything outside the borders of their faction. They'll forsake interesting developments because it doesn't favour their faction.

i understand it, but I'm tired of it.

I brainstormed on the thought of Void elf presence in Quel'thalas. I agree scenarios like that are not very likely to happen, but they do bring some fresh air And kind of break status quo.

For blood elves to tolerate Void elves, they need to:
- stop seeing them as a threat to Sunwell
- Void elves proving themselves to be trustworthy

You could include Void elves in a way they sneak into Quel'thalas and spy upon blood elves, but that's repeat of old story. The other scenario would be Alliance invasion of Quel'thalas and that's even less likely to happen now.

[Alanar]

Alleria ruined their chance in Silvermoon.

Deathholme is way to close for bob to say yes, this idea feels like wasted time honestly and I dont see it happen ever.

[Beloren]

I brainstormed on the thought of Void elf presence in Quel'thalas. I agree scenarios like that are not very likely to happen, but they do bring some fresh air And kind of break status quo.

For blood elves to tolerate Void elves, they need to:
- stop seeing them as a threat to Sunwell
- Void elves proving themselves to be trustworthy

You could include Void elves in a way they sneak into Quel'thalas and spy upon blood elves, but that's repeat of old story. The other scenario would be Alliance invasion of Quel'thalas and that's even less likely to happen now.

They do indeed, and if we weren't so caught up in faction turf wars between ourselves, we'd probably be open to a lot more of this sort of things, because it heightens the activity and drama too.

Why can't a horde fan support the alliance moving in and hte conflict it can create for more fun? i mean in life i hate conflict, but the game is based on that you need things to do, and you can understand the in-game rivalry so obviously it is healthy to suggest things that promote it but also give nuance to it.

It's boring if it's always hate /annihilation, that also lacks imagination, but it's much more interesting when there is nuance, reasons to hate and reasons to love, some fighting for one and others the others, and they may have justifiable causes, but also have unjustifiable ones because they are not very good or decent people.

You need this. you can't always just remove the alliance to the nether regions of "completely out of the way" or remote island where there is literally nothing so they won't get in your hair.. i think fans shouldn't get like that because they are not in game characters, they are real people, and we are fans together of the franchise so should support things that make it more dynamic overall - even while we prefer our our own side or in some cases just our fave race.

As such I have greatly softened my stance compared to a few years ago.. but who are we if we don't grow and evolve.. hopefully we do so into something better nad not into more spiteful and angry people. Anger has it's place when it is fully justified, but far too often it happens when people's egos and pride are wounded and affected - it just makes you come off as petulant and childish. That was me not too long ago. I'm growing up.

As such, I think i would like to see a scenario like this, void elves in Quelt'thalas can be interesting, Nightborne in Hyjal or Eldre'thalas can be interested, so to can the reverse of night elves in the broken isles..

Let them explore some of the things they dared not explore before.. while some would hate it and moan about it on the forums, maybe they might just be surprised how actually many of us might appreciate any development we would have never considered previously, if it was done well and interesting, fun and engaging.

Looking at your suggestion, there is a lot they can create from the situation. But I'd above all love to see a redone Quel'thalas - add a void themed zone section, a death themed one, a forest themed one, a couple of cities in addition to Silvermoon and Quel'tnas (i.e. wone for the voids, and one of the undead).. expand the zone, make it really rich, add some islands too.. it could be fun.

There is a lot of interest in Quel'thalas from both sides.. they should make the most of it, and uses that to expand it and make it an amazing zone with an amazing story and lots of activity.

i'll add a couple of massive islands, a huge one for the maani, and a smaller one for the Thalassian elves. have situations where high elves nad blood elves work well on the front line like Vereesa did with others in the MM hunter artefact quest, and other situations where they are ready to tear each other out and finding subtle ways of disposing of the other or even outright killing - although I prefer elves to consider that as a no go.. let them be different in a way that matches their racial profile. Where humans would indeed murder or trolls tear each other apart, they can empahsise that sort of thing is beneath elves -(at least on the surface)

- - - Updated - - -

Alleria ruined their chance in Silvermoon.

Deathholme is way to close for bob to say yes, this idea feels like wasted time honestly and I dont see it happen ever.

It won't be hard to create new chances Vaedan and Ravenmoon even suggested a few ways this could happen. No lore event in game is ever a truly 2impossible" situation, when a writer can just add lore to change it.

Question should be instead, would the zone be more interesting, and can you create more excitement and buzz for the community through this.?

Without a doubt, elves are one of the groups that really engage both fans. So I think doing interesting things for the Thalassians on both factions concerning each other, and the night elves on both factions concerning each other would definitely very much engage the community and fanbase.

And if done well it can have things both sets really like and also really willing to fight for.

If only Warcraft introduced more dynamic systems.. like if you play a blood elf, you can actually win zones and territories that count towards your race and faction in game, as you do the quests.


For example, if a blood elf went through Legion, then it totally matters, on your blood elf character you win back support for your race and faction in Daalaran, you won the nightborne over to the horde, it makes a difference and the story reflects it, the results are different if you're on a orc, or human or night elf etc - i know that might be too much for blizz to write in, but the idea is that it matters.

Maybe on you game you control all of the Eastern Kingdoms, and you can add blood elf cities and towns along the way. this conquest game kicks in after you've done the quest zones ofc , and the changes are permanent on that character o your client.. because doing it with another race or faction yields different results.

Yes, I know it won't ever happen, but it's a rough picture of what I mean.

[Jackstraw]

Oh.. why wouldn't they want to live in the land they are studying the void to protect? For a people and world htey love? And went to the alliance to hlep save?


You don't know the void elves do you.. They haven't abandoned Silvermoon or Quel'thalas, their exile is not voluntary.

I certainly don't think they plan to permanently be away, and they'll be the first to fly back home should the void launch an attack against Silvermoon or Quel'thalas.

If blizzard want to put the Void elves in Quel'thalas, it's so easy to write this.. whether they are a risk to the Sunwell or not, if they are the only hope to save from the void attacks.. they'll be back.

And this doesn't mean they can't be in other void nexus points..

Their exile is practical.

We can discuss it all we want, but the Ren'dorei can't be part of a society that revolves around the Sunwell due to how they interact with it.

Deatholme to the Ren'dorei could be fun even if just for the drama it would create. But the lads can't take Silvermoon unless one of them stagedives the Well for shits and giggles, creating whatever Void apocalypse and souring the Sin'dorei to hell and back.

[Beloren]

Their exile is practical.

We can discuss it all we want, but the Ren'dorei can't be part of a society that revolves around the Sunwell due to how they interact with it.

Deatholme to the Ren'dorei could be fun even if just for the drama it would create. But the lads can't take Silvermoon unless one of them stagedives the Well for shits and giggles, creating whatever Void apocalypse and souring the Sin'dorei to hell and back.

Anything is possible, they made up a reason why they shouldn't be there, they can make up a reason why they can - lore reasons don't stop ANYTHING from happeing. when you're God you can just simply change the script or add to it to make what you now want happen.

This doens't mean it shuld happen, just that i can.

[Vaedan]

Their exile is practical.

We can discuss it all we want, but the Ren'dorei can't be part of a society that revolves around the Sunwell due to how they interact with it.

Deatholme to the Ren'dorei could be fun even if just for the drama it would create. But the lads can't take Silvermoon unless one of them stagedives the Well for shits and giggles, creating whatever Void apocalypse and souring the Sin'dorei to hell and back.

Well, their exile may look practical, but it has several weak points.

First of all, it was made before ren'dorei came to be. We have not seen any Void elf near Sunwell, so we can only speculate on their reaction.

What we've seen Alleria's reaction to the Sunwell. She is special case, she acquired her powers from different and way more potent source then regular Void elves. There is also speculation that Sunwell incident was Ruzaan's trap on Alleria, so we don't really know what exactly caused it. She also had to directly touch Sunwell, so basicaly restricting any Void elves from Sunwell plateau would be enough.

Their exile is more likely based on fear. We can certainly understand the reasons, but it might not be the only solution.

[Alanar]

They do indeed, and if we weren't so caught up in faction turf wars between ourselves, we'd probably be open to a lot more of this sort of things, because it heightens the activity and drama too.

Why can't a horde fan support the alliance moving in and hte conflict it can create for more fun? i mean in life i hate conflict, but the game is based on that you need things to do, and you can understand the in-game rivalry so obviously it is healthy to suggest things that promote it but also give nuance to it.

It's boring if it's always hate /annihilation, that also lacks imagination, but it's much more interesting when there is nuance, reasons to hate and reasons to love, some fighting for one and others the others, and they may have justifiable causes, but also have unjustifiable ones because they are not very good or decent people.

You need this. you can't always just remove the alliance to the nether regions of "completely out of the way" or remote island where there is literally nothing so they won't get in your hair.. i think fans shouldn't get like that because they are not in game characters, they are real people, and we are fans together of the franchise so should support things that make it more dynamic overall - even while we prefer our our own side or in some cases just our fave race.

As such I have greatly softened my stance compared to a few years ago.. but who are we if we don't grow and evolve.. hopefully we do so into something better nad not into more spiteful and angry people. Anger has it's place when it is fully justified, but far too often it happens when people's egos and pride are wounded and affected - it just makes you come off as petulant and childish. That was me not too long ago. I'm growing up.

As such, I think i would like to see a scenario like this, void elves in Quelt'thalas can be interesting, Nightborne in Hyjal or Eldre'thalas can be interested, so to can the reverse of night elves in the broken isles..

Let them explore some of the things they dared not explore before.. while some would hate it and moan about it on the forums, maybe they might just be surprised how actually many of us might appreciate any development we would have never considered previously, if it was done well and interesting, fun and engaging.

Looking at your suggestion, there is a lot they can create from the situation. But I'd above all love to see a redone Quel'thalas - add a void themed zone section, a death themed one, a forest themed one, a couple of cities in addition to Silvermoon and Quel'tnas (i.e. wone for the voids, and one of the undead).. expand the zone, make it really rich, add some islands too.. it could be fun.

There is a lot of interest in Quel'thalas from both sides.. they should make the most of it, and uses that to expand it and make it an amazing zone with an amazing story and lots of activity.

i'll add a couple of massive islands, a huge one for the maani, and a smaller one for the Thalassian elves. have situations where high elves nad blood elves work well on the front line like Vereesa did with others in the MM hunter artefact quest, and other situations where they are ready to tear each other out and finding subtle ways of disposing of the other or even outright killing - although I prefer elves to consider that as a no go.. let them be different in a way that matches their racial profile. Where humans would indeed murder or trolls tear each other apart, they can empahsise that sort of thing is beneath elves -(at least on the surface)

- - - Updated - - -



It won't be hard to create new chances Vaedan and Ravenmoon even suggested a few ways this could happen. No lore event in game is ever a truly 2impossible" situation, when a writer can just add lore to change it.

Question should be instead, would the zone be more interesting, and can you create more excitement and buzz for the community through this.?

Without a doubt, elves are one of the groups that really engage both fans. So I think doing interesting things for the Thalassians on both factions concerning each other, and the night elves on both factions concerning each other would definitely very much engage the community and fanbase.

And if done well it can have things both sets really like and also really willing to fight for.

If only Warcraft introduced more dynamic systems.. like if you play a blood elf, you can actually win zones and territories that count towards your race and faction in game, as you do the quests.


For example, if a blood elf went through Legion, then it totally matters, on your blood elf character you win back support for your race and faction in Daalaran, you won the nightborne over to the horde, it makes a difference and the story reflects it, the results are different if you're on a orc, or human or night elf etc - i know that might be too much for blizz to write in, but the idea is that it matters.

Maybe on you game you control all of the Eastern Kingdoms, and you can add blood elf cities and towns along the way. this conquest game kicks in after you've done the quest zones ofc , and the changes are permanent on that character o your client.. because doing it with another race or faction yields different results.

Yes, I know it won't ever happen, but it's a rough picture of what I mean.

I get it.., but sorry Ravenmoon never realy has good ideas imo, just a bunch of the same stuff he always talk about.
He wanted blood elves to build their own city in hellfire for no reason when they already have silvermoon.

The tries to point to conversation to the same thing all the time. Wanting Suramar and now quel' thalas. He thinks it unfair. Well I dont share hes opinion or hes idea. So hard pass.

And besides.. I never understood why we would need a world were all these things, which are already part of a race( blood elves in this instance) is to share everything. I rather see them develop their own thing within the horde. We already had alleria story in silvermoon and it was pretty clear. So its not weird to think that deathholme is just a bad place for void elves

I am not sure if I even understand that idea.. I mean what is the purpose of it realy?

[Beloren]

I get it.., but sorry Ravenmoon never realy has good ideas imo, just a bunch of the same stuff he always talk about.

His problem is that his ideas always favour the alliance , especially the night elves too often at the expense of the horde... he'd probably have a lot more supporters if he wasn't so in your face about what we should and shouldn't have. Why should a Nelf fan tell us what we should have? that's the irritation I use to have. He loves making them or his favourites look good. I guess every fan does.

Ravens's most annoying thing tho is going on so much about the same thing... over and over and over again... 3 years later he still finds the night elves wonderful and full of potential and is quick to tell us this in many words, and correct every tiny mistake he feels we've made - even if we "interpret" it wrong, that is next level control freak.. at least he isn't rude about it.. mostly, it can get annoying if you don't like elves or are sick of it.

I think if it wasn't for him and his inner circle, no one would be talking about night elves.. none of his ramblings have changed or achieved anything in the game, but, they have raised night elf awareness and conversation .. that he has succeeded in. Even I started paying attention to them due to the constant arguments, and I use to hate them with a passion. But hate can turn to love, so be careful.

I don't care that much anymore.. the problem isn't Ravenmoon - it's blizzard and their damn faction system.

And besides.. I never understood why we would need a world were all these things, which are already part of a race( blood elves in this instance) is to share everything. I rather see them develop their own thing within the horde. We already had alleria story in silvermoon and it was pretty clear. So its not weird to think that deathholme is just a bad place for void elves

I am not sure if I even understand that idea.. I mean what is the purpose of it realy?

Alliance fan fantasy, just like they wanted high elves - isn't it obvious?

Everyone is entitled to their fantasy, if they want to spend hours writing about it, they can knock themselves out, but even when they know no one is reading? That's some dedication. We have view s on the alliance too, but they're worth 1 line, not essays.. Do you think he secretly loves the horde elves more? and is just a closet hordie? He mentioned not being a pure alliance fan.

[Jackstraw]

Well, their exile may look practical, but it has several weak points.

First of all, it was made before ren'dorei came to be. We have not seen any Void elf near Sunwell, so we can only speculate on their reaction.

What we've seen Alleria's reaction to the Sunwell. She is special case, she acquired her powers from different and way more potent source then regular Void elves. There is also speculation that Sunwell incident was Ruzaan's trap on Alleria, so we don't really know what exactly caused it. She also had to directly touch Sunwell, so basicaly restricting any Void elves from Sunwell plateau would be enough.

Their exile is more likely based on fear. We can certainly understand the reasons, but it might not be the only solution.

Alleria destabilizes the Sunwell, and Lor'themar decides then and there to exile Umbric and his posse, because his studies are equally dangerous.
Rommath comments on that fact, and whatever happens in Telogrus, whatever attention is gathered there, is dangerous to the Sunwell.

It can be rewritten, of course, everything is being rewritten constantly after all. However as it stands the Rens cannot return to their homeland because their choices made them a danger for it.

[Beloren]

Alleria destabilizes the Sunwell, and Lor'themar decides then and there to exile Umbric and his posse, because his studies are equally dangerous.
Rommath comments on that fact, and whatever happens in Telogrus, whatever attention is gathered there, is dangerous to the Sunwell.

It can be rewritten, of course, everything is being rewritten constantly after all. However as it stands the Rens cannot return to their homeland because their choices made them a danger for it.

No need to rewrite, just add a development that changes the narrative. I have come to view re-writes as the lazy option that often ruins the integrity of the work.. who's gonna trust your stuff, when you know it's just going to be retconned? Retconns should be very rare and only if absolutely necessary for a very worthwhile development. In wow, only the Draenei race has been a retcon that I feel was good and necessary.. all the other ones were not.

[Crimson Spears]

Elves are adults at pretty much the same rate as humans, they usually choose not to have many kids.

It is touched on in some of the old lore in the well of eternity books. Even before immortality (are they still immortal they flip flop with it on live) they tend to have children around 200 years old and date for roughly 100 years before selecting a partner.

The reason why there are so many elves is because those alive have been alive for thousands of years with only a few extremely rare deaths from injury or accident and that includes since the times the only other race was cave man tech and magic trolls.

Elves after being decimated are exceedingly rare lore wise we are not given a number but its likely their total population counting all the different flavors is measured in the 20,000.

Sure blizzard can poof more into exitances since at best they play fast and loose with lore but it doesn't make sense for elves to be expanding and forming new capitals they simply don't have the numbers even if they have the desire to.

[Jackstraw]

No need to rewrite, just add a development that changes the narrative. I have come to view re-writes as the lazy option that often ruins the integrity of the work.. who's gonna trust your stuff, when you know it's just going to be retconned? Retconns should be very rare and only if absolutely necessary for a very worthwhile development. In wow, only the Draenei race has been a retcon that I feel was good and necessary.. all the other ones were not.

That's the current situation the lore verses in: no credibility due to the continous retcons.

Anyway, there's no real possible development unless Rens do something with their Void research to shield it when coming in contact with the Sunwell. I just don't see how it could go otherwise without any asspull.

That being said, Deatholme being redeemed from the Dar'khan memories and claiming the Ghostlands as home turf would be a pretty neat juxtaposition: up north the homeland of Quel'danas, in a perpetual red and gold autumn. Down south, the deep, purple shadows of the Ghostlands giving way to spiraling towers and spires.

[Rhlor]

Sanlayn are jailer minions

[Maljinwo]

Void Elves should, at most, keep residing on Telogrus Rift. The less we see of them, the better

Also.. San'layn...
"Why yes, previous agents of the scourge, please inhabit the former headquarters where the most devastating event in our history came from. Also, enjoy any of Dar'khan's forbidden tomes just in case we weren't dumb enough"

Also, considering how everything in the scourge is now somehow related to the Jailer, the san'layn are probably always meant to serve Denathrius or some shit