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  1. #301
    True "classic" WoW - the same argument from 2007 with pretty much the same points made by everyone.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    I get what you're saying, but if you do most of the quests in every zone you ding 70 before you ever set foot in Netherstorm or Shadowmoon Valley.

    Maybe instead of just dinging 70 they could have also required you beat a few key quest lines in both of those zones to unlock it first. After you've "completed" all the zon

    It's just kinda sad that Shadowmoon Valley is built as this extremely intimidating and hostile zone but flying trivializes all of it.
    NO! Just NO! This is why I despise Wow Retail since MOP I have not been able to fly. I want to level as fast as humanly possible, I despise Leveling and Quests in general the second I am max level I Port to the Major City Hub and abandon all non Dungeon/ PVP/ Raid quests and never touch another non daily quest for the rest of the xpac. I don't want to do leveling content at max level I want to be done with that BS, which Is why I almost exclusively level in dungeons and do very few quests since a quest rewards maybe 12k exp which is less than 10 mobs in a dungeon.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post


    Spotted the guy who hasn't played Phase 2.

    Right off the bat, mounting upon a ground mount doesn't mean you instantly "dodged" the engagement.
    If you managed to mount up, you only avoided the fight temporarily, people will then chase you.
    If you run into some mobs and get dazed => you're fucked
    Because they're chasing you, means also they can cut any corner you make and catch onto you.
    They can also slap on some mount speed stuff and be faster than you (Carrot on Stick, Gloves Enchant, Mithril Spurs).
    They also don't have to get in Melee range, once they're in range to Charge / Blink + Frost Nova, they got you.

    Disregarding when you're stuck in a "dead end" area and virtually cannot get around them.

    With flying, nothing of this matters, because the second you lift off, you have basically successfully avoided them, period.
    When you ressurect, all it takes is one mount up to be gone, whereas a resurrection without flying doesn't automatically result in that.

    Running into an Instance...yeah, because every outdoor spot has a dungeon right around the corner.
    Tell me about the dungeon located right next to the Air Elementals in Shadowmoon Valley, or Elemental Plateau.

    Logging off is also no magic solution, because it takes 20 seconds for your character to despawn, meaning they get at least an additional kill on you.

    I have played my share of Classic to tell that flying completely changed the dynamic of world PvP, because i don't have to catch people within less than three seconds in order to have a shot at killing them, neither can i escape others by just mounting.
    The point being, there are ways of getting away and "not engaging" in WPvP if one does not want to. The fact that everyone would rather mount up and fly away should tell you everything you need to know about everyones "LOVE" for WPvP. It might be fun for some, but the vast majority have no desire for it.

    Sure, some people are upset that it isn't a big deal anymore, but it was a side game at best and were better off without it

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    The fact that everyone would rather mount up and fly away should tell you everything you need to know about everyones "LOVE" for WPvP.
    If i see a rogue going in stealth right in front of me and i'm playing a class that gets countered by rogue in 1v1 (which is the majority)...i'd also mount up.
    If i see two people from the enemy faction killing mobs over there, i'd also be rather cautious and wait on my flying mount to see how the situation develops.

    Imagine if a dev gave everyone an IWIN Button in PvP, then claims success over every player using his IWIN button.
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    It might be fun for some, but the vast majority have no desire for it.
    At the same time, PvP Servers are generally more popular than PvE Servers.
    According to Ironforge.io, you have more than thrice as many players on PvP Servers than PvE ones.

    Also that data is purely based on PvE metrics, not PvP ones.
    Disregarding that for some odd reason, we also have far more PvP Servers than PvE ones.

    The duality of man.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-13 at 10:44 PM.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I do see the argument, I just dont agree with it. And everyone keeps ignoring the countless ways wpvp could be avoided since day 1, such as stealth, for example.

    - - - Updated - - -



    GW2 allows you to port all over the world instantly as well, and yes, FF14 has flying as well, but to be fair, PvP isnt exactly what FF is known for.....
    Stealth is only available for two classes and is a unique advantage for world pvp. GW2 had no world pvp so not sure why that's being compared.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    This, add some gameplay, not sure about some of the examples, but flying needs something... or at least add some feel to it.
    100% responsive in all directions with insta turning which is only limited to how quick you move the mouse makes flying just awful. It's just not fun to engage in a system like this, but you still do it because of the huge advantage.

    Flying needs weight in it's movement.
    Would have been a neat thing if different mounts had different speeds, durability/duration. That winged creature can't keep ur heavy character afloat forever so either park it, feed it, etc. Something like that could have worked ok, addibg some RP to the flying mount mechanic.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    At the same time, PvP Servers are generally more popular than PvE Servers.
    According to Ironforge.io, you have more than thrice as many players on PvP Servers than PvE ones.

    Also that data is purely based on PvE metrics, not PvP ones.
    Disregarding that for some odd reason, we also have far more PvP Servers than PvE ones.

    The duality of man.
    And a lot of those PvP servers are lopsided. Some to the point of essentially being PvE servers. For instance (using Ironforge.pro) Herod is 77% horde, 23% Alliance. Fairbanks is 72% Horde, 28% Alliance. Shazzrah is 75% Horde, 25% Alliance. Lucifron, and Skeram are 100% horde, 0% alliance. Heartstriker and Heartseeker are 100% alliance, 0% horde.

    The list goes on. But the point I'm making here is that, clearly WPvP isn't super popular, at least according to these statistics. Why would horde on these servers play on them if they LOVED WPvP? Theres no WPvP to be had since they have so few alliance players. Or vice versa for the alliance dominated servers?

    If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.

  7. #307
    People want everything to happen fast while simultaneously have eternal amount of content. Flying is fine but blizzard makes zones based on ground exploration.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    And a lot of those PvP servers are lopsided. Some to the point of essentially being PvE servers. For instance (using Ironforge.pro) Herod is 77% horde, 23% Alliance. Fairbanks is 72% Horde, 28% Alliance. Shazzrah is 75% Horde, 25% Alliance. Lucifron, and Skeram are 100% horde, 0% alliance. Heartstriker and Heartseeker are 100% alliance, 0% horde.

    The list goes on. But the point I'm making here is that, clearly WPvP isn't super popular, at least according to these statistics. Why would horde on these servers play on them if they LOVED WPvP? Theres no WPvP to be had since they have so few alliance players. Or vice versa for the alliance dominated servers?

    If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.
    You cant get through to him. Hes been convinced for YEARS that wPvP was the “real deal” that everyone loved, when it never was. It died the moment instnced PvP was a thing, for good reason. It favors classes that can gank, not skill, and is almost always launched when one side is already heavily engaged. It was trash from day 1, which is why it died a whimpering death themoment instanced PvP existed.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    But they are actually wrong and there is lots and lots and lots of evidence to prove them wrong. Flat earthers are actually stupid.

    As far as my "fix for flying" is concerned - I am not factually wrong - if he doesn't like flying, he doesn't have to fly. He can very well traverse Outland on a ground mount and use flight paths when absolutely necessary. He is his own demise - he doesn't want to fly, but he does anyway because it's faster and just better

    He could've choosen not to fly, but he didn't. End of thread
    This is one the most disingenuous replies that I've seen, and it's a common one. It's used when the person doesn't have anything of actual substance to say, and would rather the entire topic go away.

    If your only actual reply is to say 'well you don't HAVE to do it', then lets add pay to win. Money for mythic raiding gear. Money for every single mount drop in the game. Money for titles, money for xmog and money for pvp ranks.

    Unless your reply is 'oh wait maybe my argument wasn't founded', then according to YOUR own stance you'd have to be completely okay with all of this, because you don't 'have' to do it.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Go talk to communists and tell them they can't use iPhone or other products of capitalism.
    That iPhone is a product of communist China, my friend.

  11. #311
    flying is like being vegan, those that like it this way want everyone else to do it like them.
    I like flying, I like eating meat, and as long as it's available I'll stay this way.
    just because flying/meat exist doesn't mean you have to use it, or try to forces others to forsake it because of your preferences.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Chumahki View Post
    That iPhone is a product of communist China, my friend.
    Ermm, no, not so much. Its a product largely of Taiwan. You know, non-communist China. Not that im weighing in on whatever else the two of you are arguing about.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    And a lot of those PvP servers are lopsided. Some to the point of essentially being PvE servers. For instance (using Ironforge.pro) Herod is 77% horde, 23% Alliance. Fairbanks is 72% Horde, 28% Alliance. Shazzrah is 75% Horde, 25% Alliance. Lucifron, and Skeram are 100% horde, 0% alliance. Heartstriker and Heartseeker are 100% alliance, 0% horde.
    And how do you know that those servers started that way?

    Take Lucifron, i played on that Server, it was actually pretty balanced.
    Until Phase 2.

    Same goes for a lot of other servers recently, Earthshaker was actually pretty balanced, but then became a refuge for Alliance players that got ganked one too many times because of insane Horde queue times.

    Like, think about it for a moment, when you don't want any World PvP, you could just choose a PvE Server right off the bat and not use the data of some 3rd party website to guide your decision onto a Server where the thing you don't want could still happen.

    Here's the bloody irony: Most PvP Servers became Horde Servers because of World PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.
    Most of these servers became that way because one side ganked the other into transferring.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-14 at 06:57 AM.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    But they are actually wrong and there is lots and lots and lots of evidence to prove them wrong. Flat earthers are actually stupid.

    As far as my "fix for flying" is concerned - I am not factually wrong - if he doesn't like flying, he doesn't have to fly. He can very well traverse Outland on a ground mount and use flight paths when absolutely necessary. He is his own demise - he doesn't want to fly, but he does anyway because it's faster and just better

    He could've choosen not to fly, but he didn't. End of thread
    No, it's not wrong to say you can choose not to fly, but it's just a fallacious argument towards the idea in general and you know it because it has been debunked ad nauseum.

  15. #315
    Disagree fully. Here are my reasons.

    First, the world Never feels dangerous. It feels annoying at times, but not dangerous. Flying just makes it easier to get around without being bothered at all. They could easily add no fly zones, as they had in wrath, where you are dismounted if you fly there. The guards above cities in BC were a great way to add some no fly areas and make a certain portion a bit more challenging and like an actually, highly guarded fort. To me, that makes it feel even More like a highly guarded fort, because in a world full of magic and portals, why not guard the skies?

    Second, I have found far more WPvP chances with flying then I ever did without. I am on a server that is horde dominated. Trying to find someone to fight is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Its a task that is actually possible when I can fly and see everything below me. As for the "they will just mount up and fly away", get over it. Its the same in literally any situation. If they see you and don't want to fight, they mount up and run as fast as they can/ Ground or air mount, it doesn't matter. If you're caught, you're caught and you wont catch them. If anything, flying makes it easier to spot you because your shadow is cast further ahead of you on the ground. The same argument applies to "but they'll land right on top of you while you're busy and kill you!!!11!". Literally will do the same on a ground mount. If you're busy and they catch the drop on you, it doesn't matter what type of mount it is. They could walk up to you and accomplish the same thing.

    And last, design is better with flight in mind. I mean, come on. Secret areas only accessible to flight. Giant mountains and tall titan towers that need a mount to visit the top of. They make the world feel more dynamic to have these things. When you get zones designed exclusively for ground travel, you get bland and boring. Every area is meant to be reached on foot. The mountains hold no secrets since they are merely blockades and nothing more. The world feels more like an adventure where some old god hoisted his throne high above the clouds, were only those blessed with flight may travel to seek an audience. Without flight its like "hey, look at that flat picture on the sky that has zero depth or character".

    Just my opinions on it. BC had some things right with how to make flight dangerous and exclusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    They could easily add no fly zones, as they had in wrath, where you are dismounted if you fly there.
    ...you mean Dalaran and Wintergrasp?

    One of which is a PvP Zone, where the no flight limitation pretty much undermines your entire argument that flying promotes world pvp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    If they see you and don't want to fight, they mount up and run as fast as they can/ Ground or air mount, it doesn't matter.
    This is plain horse shit.
    I have explained this above already.

    If you manage to mount up on flying mount, you're gone unless the enemy manages to straight up one shot you.
    If you manage to mount on a ground mount and they chase you, they can still catchup by using mountspeed items, you might run into some mobs and get dazed, you might be in a dead end and thus can't just run away from them in a straight line, because they are chasing you, they will cut corners and eventually catch up.

    I have played Classic during Phase 2 extensively and the lack of flying is an absolute game changer for World PvP, because opponents aren't a 3 second cast away from avoiding the fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    When you get zones designed exclusively for ground travel, you get bland and boring. Every area is meant to be reached on foot. The mountains hold no secrets since they are merely blockades and nothing more.
    I disagree.

    Finding some pathway up a mountain is actually pretty cool, with flying, virtually any mountain is the same, because i'll just land on the top without any hindrance.
    For example, the pathway for the Fire Totem quest on Horde side involves taking some rather hidden pathway up a mountain, then with a good lookout over Durotar.

    It feels special because you rarely get this view without flying, same goes for any other mountain in WoW, because you are constantly on the ground, any elevated position feels special because you rarely have this view, with flying, you always have it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    The world feels more like an adventure where some old god hoisted his throne high above the clouds, were only those blessed with flight may travel to seek an audience.
    That would work if flying was actually some feature for the selected few, but it's literally available for everybody.

    The closest thing WoW in general had was the Netherwing ledge and there it solely blocked off its dailies if you didn't have epic flying.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-14 at 08:39 AM.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    ...you mean Dalaran and Wintergrasp?

    One of which is a PvP Zone, where the no flight limitation pretty much undermines your entire argument that flying promotes world pvp.

    This is plain horse shit.
    I have explained this above already.

    If you manage to mount up on flying mount, you're gone unless the enemy manages to straight up one shot you.
    If you manage to mount on a ground mount and they chase you, they can still catchup by using mountspeed items, you might run into some mobs and get dazed, you might be in a dead end and thus can't just run away from them in a straight line, because they are chasing you, they will cut corners and eventually catch up.
    So, wintergrasp does not undermine anything. It was a PvP map, a failed one at that. I mean areas like in front of wrath gate and yes, Dalaran. Now, for the mount argument, its just flat out wrong. Mount speed items are rare. Exceedingly so. I did a ton of world PvP. In almost every case, mobs never really came down to it. They see you, mount up, and run. You then have to cast to mount up and the likely hood you catch them before they enter a city is slim to none. So, personal experience here from all of the world PvP I have done disagrees. Sure, a daze Might happen, and it Might help. Or it will boost their damage. Like on my warrior, I purposefully ran into mobs so I could get victory rush, and thus, keep healing myself pretty well. Most people will go in a straight line towards a safe spot.

    Now, pathways are neat, if they are put in in the first place. In places like Sholazar basin or Storm Peaks, they didn't have paths to higher areas. Quests got you there or you had flying. Flying may be accessible by most, but it doesn't invalidate that they put more detail in zones were flight is going to be from the start.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  18. #318
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    U could get dazed on the ground and had to run thru mobs. Much more interesting than jumping on a 280% speed and disappearing into the sky
    Interesting? The world you are looking for is FRUSTRATING.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So, wintergrasp does not undermine anything. It was a PvP map, a failed one at that.
    "failed" by what metrics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    I mean areas like in front of wrath gate and yes, Dalaran.
    I'm fairly certain you can fly just fine in front of the Wrath gate, at least after you've completed all the quests there.

    Putting aside that those zones also are sanctuaries and thus do not allow PvP to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Mount speed items are rare. Exceedingly so.
    One is a quest reward from Zul'farrak and the other two are enchants.
    Heck, Mithril spurs have been super cheap throughout Classic because Blacksmiths use the recipe to level up.
    The mats for the mount enchant cost like 3-5g, at best.

    Is this exceedingly rare to you?

    For someone who claims to have knowledge in Classic World PvP, this is a major faux pas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    I did a ton of world PvP. In almost every case, mobs never really came down to it. They see you, mount up, and run. You then have to cast to mount up and the likely hood you catch them before they enter a city is slim to none.
    Considering that highlevel zones aren't exactly brimming with cities, that's pretty stupid.
    Like, you have a single friendly hub in EPL for example, and the odds of you being able to ride a straight line from any place in EPL towards Chapel are next to none, let alone avoid any mobs along the way.

    Same goes for Winterspring, due to the layout of the zone, unless they are approaching from the opposite direction (=Not from Everlook), you will not just be able to ride towards Everlook without them catching you.

    Disregarding that certain hubs don't even have guards in highlevel zones, Chapel of Light had only a single patrol up until P6, Morgan's Vigil has virtually nothing, Thorium Point has nothing, Flame Crest has nothing.
    Those hubs aren't the safe haven you make them up to be.

  20. #320
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Thats not an option. Want to herb or mine to make money in the world? Can't just "not fly" cause all the flyers will take most of the nodes.
    If you (general 'you', not you specifically) are complaining about the "lack of sense of danger" in the world because of flying, I am willing to bet that "making money herbing or mining" is not a concern for the player, and the solution is actually simply a case of "don't like lying? Then don't fly."

    But if your concern is to make money by mining and/or herbing in Outland, then this is a case of you (again, general you) being an entitled butt who not only are refusing to use optimal methods, but also complaining that others are using those optimal methods. That's akin being on a race against other people, and complaining you're coming up last place consistently because you want to walk while everyone else is running.
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