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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    Which is exactly my point.
    If that was your point, then your post much misses the entire "why they ended up this way".
    Especially when you also write
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.
    Sorry, your post doesn't even mention Phase 2 or the TBC BG queue times, it just cites those stats and says "there, PvP servers are lopsided, everyone actually hates World PvP".
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    Not having a reward (it being it's own reward) and some people just not learning when to take it down a notch (if it's red it's dead mentality) is what killed WPvP.
    This is such a massive excuse to deflect from what flying actually allows players to do.

    First off, because of flying, you run into less people, you can't have world pvp without running into other people.
    Without flying, everybody is on the ground and thus more visible.
    With Flying, people are constantly in the air, even if i wanted to kill them, i don't even see them or they are out of range.

    Next to that, they can avoid fights so much more easily, when i saw someone looting an herb in Classic, even if they managed to get onto their mount, that didn't mean they were gone, if you had a decent slow / root, you could still easily catch them and force a fight.

    If you fail to get them into combat within 3 seconds, they're gone, because you will not catch them.
    With flying, you can avoid fights so much more easily because once you're on the mount, you're basically invincible for anything but oneshots, without flying, you're not safe, not even close.

    Without flying, you're not out of the woods simply because you're on a mount, not even close if people wanted to hunt you down.

    Stop treating World PvP as this binary thing, World PvP is at its best when it occurs naturally, yet for that people actually need to meet each other and not have a 3 second "get out of jail" spell at the ready, so they can disengage whenever they feel like it.

    Did flying "kill" World PvP?
    No, for the sole reason that i wouldn't say it's dead, but the threat that an enemy player represents is heavily diminished because of it, as you can just mount up to avoid any confrontation.
    This option did not exist in Classic.

    This entire argument is basically:
    "A murder victim got shot, hence the stabwound didn't hurt him"
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-15 at 09:25 PM.

  2. #382
    Flying is fine, just needs gameplay designed around it. Kudos to whoever else said that in the topic, its the right answer.

    If they want to get rid of flying, they need to open back up development on ground transports and its physics and mechanics and how you can interact with the environment again. There's no shortage of games with cool exploration and ground mount usage now. With all of the unlocks they like to do lately, Metroidvania style mechanics could be a possibility, too.

    If they want to keep flying, they should reopen development on flight mechanics and introduce meaningful air interaction, air/vertical exploration, etc.

    Either direction you pick, there's a lot of cool things you could do with the exploration and traversal part of the game.

    But lets be real, it's Blizzard, the talent is long gone so it'll be a time gate supplemented with stuffing as many mobs into the roads as possible. Get out of the world, get into HALLWAYS: EXPANSION 8, SEASON 3.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah and that ends the debate for me right there.

    When you reply to a paragraph that refers to two points, but even refuse to elaborate what you are referring to, then i have no further interest in discussing anything with you.
    That's just the final straw in this absolutely tiresome debate with someone who pretends that a completely clunky "alternative" is an actual option to certain players.
    I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you have a good weekend.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    "For no reason"? Interesting. You realise you are saying there is no reason to use a ground mount, right?.....think that through.
    In an area where you can also use flying, yes, there aren't? Flying is faster and more convenient. Nobody chooses a ground mount over the alternative. The one exception would be if someone had a ground mount they really loved and wanted to use, or for some RP reason.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not a bad design decision, and apparently certain players actually want to "be inconvenienced". It's the whole point behind the "dangers of the world" argument, running into mobs and other players, etc, while questing and PvP'ing.

    The poster I'm currently responding to is a perfect example of that.
    Yes, exactly. Being inconvenienced can be a good thing.

    But players should not have to choose to be inconvenienced, because literally no one ever will.

    Thats the whole point. Having a dangerous world that you need to traverse can be inconveniencing but good. But literally nobody will decide to do so if flying is an option.

    Hence why "just don't fly" is an objectively poor answer which is my whole point.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    TBC is my favorite WoW expansion by far but I'm definitely one of those people that now contend flying is one of the worst things ever added o the game.

    I get why people like it and enjoy it but, it also really destroys the feel of the world.

    I'm now in Shadowmoon Valley, all these big scary fortresses with hundreds of elite guards and barricades and towers.... LOL jk just fly directly over them none of the monsters seem to notice or care.

    Land in the middle of their fortress, kill the boss, fly out.

    What's the point of building a big outdoor fortress with thousands of elite guards if anybody can just zip in? Flying really does destroy the "feel" of the world. It's just way too safe and way too convenient and way too solitary.

    I really think they could have done a better job implementing a much more limited flying system, one that gives you some of the pros without all the cons.
    Then don't use it. Completely unbind your flying mount from your hotbar and go about your business as if it never existed and let others play how they want. ffs it isn't that novel of an idea.



    also, you are wrong. the world has never been "dangerous" its a joke to assume otherwise. take off the nostalgia glasses.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    In an area where you can also use flying, yes, there aren't? Flying is faster and more convenient. Nobody chooses a ground mount over the alternative. The one exception would be if someone had a ground mount they really loved and wanted to use, or for some RP reason.
    So the argument is "gameplay would be improved if you couldnt fly" and yet there is, in your words, "no reason" not to fly? Can you not see the issue we have here? You, and others, are saying that the game is better without flying, but are not willing to be part of the solution and not fly, even though you say it is better.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So the argument is "gameplay would be improved if you couldnt fly" and yet there is, in your words, "no reason" not to fly? Can you not see the issue we have here? You, and others, are saying that the game is better without flying, but are not willing to be part of the solution and not fly, even though you say it is better.....
    There is no reason not to fly *when you can fly.* That is not the same as being able to fly = better, just that that is what people will choose as the alternative is to inconvenience themselves.

    Imagine if there was a vendor that sold mythic bis gear for a silver each. That would mean that there would be no reason to raid for gear. Which would mean people who liked raiding would be heavily discouraged from raiding. Because it's the same situation, there's no reason to raid for gear when this vendor exists, but that doesn't mean introducing the vendor is a good idea.

    So the proper response to Blizzard introducing this vendor isn't "just dont use it if you like raiding," it's "stop designing the game poorly."

  8. #388
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    Yes, exactly. Being inconvenienced can be a good thing.

    But players should not have to choose to be inconvenienced, because literally no one ever will.
    Those two lines are at odds with each other. Why would people not choose being inconvenienced, if "being inconvenienced" is a good thing? Why would "literally no one ever choose to be inconvenienced"?

    It makes absolutely no sense from a logical and argumentative standpoint, from where I'm standing.
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  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    There is no reason not to fly *when you can fly.* That is not the same as being able to fly = better, just that that is what people will choose as the alternative is to inconvenience themselves.

    Imagine if there was a vendor that sold mythic bis gear for a silver each. That would mean that there would be no reason to raid for gear. Which would mean people who liked raiding would be heavily discouraged from raiding. Because it's the same situation, there's no reason to raid for gear when this vendor exists, but that doesn't mean introducing the vendor is a good idea.

    So the proper response to Blizzard introducing this vendor isn't "just dont use it if you like raiding," it's "stop designing the game poorly."
    They aren't ever gonna understand it lol. They'd buy that gear instantly and then complain there's nothing left to do because nothing is rewarding enough. At the same time telling u "lol just dont buy the gear then " while simultaneously not inviting anyone that doesn't have the gear. They don't understand how every single thing in an mmo affects everyone

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    There is no reason not to fly *when you can fly.* That is not the same as being able to fly = better, just that that is what people will choose as the alternative is to inconvenience themselves.

    Imagine if there was a vendor that sold mythic bis gear for a silver each. That would mean that there would be no reason to raid for gear. Which would mean people who liked raiding would be heavily discouraged from raiding. Because it's the same situation, there's no reason to raid for gear when this vendor exists, but that doesn't mean introducing the vendor is a good idea.

    So the proper response to Blizzard introducing this vendor isn't "just dont use it if you like raiding," it's "stop designing the game poorly."
    Wow, what a confusing, convoluted, contradictory post, topped off with an absolutely terrible analogy. Why are you now bringing mythic raid gear and player power into this? I have a suspicious that it is because your argument just doesn't hold up by itself, so you are resorting to weirder and weirder comparisons. You say its NOT because flying is better, its just more convenient....so it IS better?

    A problem has been presented "flying ruined wpvp"
    A solution is offered "just dont fly"
    The reply? "but then we will be inconvenienced!"

    Thats the entire argument in 3 lines.

    Flying is bad!
    so dont fly
    But flying is good!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Those two lines are at odds with each other. Why would people not choose being inconvenienced, if "being inconvenienced" is a good thing? Why would "literally no one ever choose to be inconvenienced"?

    It makes absolutely no sense from a logical and argumentative standpoint, from where I'm standing.
    This is worded better than I have been able to - and is the part of the conversation that makes zero sense.

    "not flying would improve the game! but literally no one would ever choose not flying over flying!" its just one big contradiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It is true and it is an answer. Just don't do it. It's that simple. There is no complicated formula to figure out. If you don't like using the guide stones... walk to the dungeon. Plain and simple. It's "less efficient" but if you feel more immersed, knock yourself out.
    It's only really that simple if you are unable to grasp the mechanics of the problem. @Kralljin put it very well with the example of the pvp trinket, and your only response is "that is isn't on the same scale," which completely ignores the mechanics of the issue.

    The mechanics of the problem doesn't change with the scale. People don't want to inconvenience themselves, but that doesn't mean that introducing a convenient thing is better for the game or makes the experience more enjoyable.

    Using a scaled up version of an issue is a way to make it easier to understand for others. That's the whole reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Not everyone takes the convenient path of least resistance. There are people who deck the crap out of their game with so many addons that the game nearly plays itself. I never used addons and I got by just fine. I never thought I was inconvenienced.
    There's quite a difference between going for the very best optimization there is, and not wanting to inconvenience yourself. If you're writing a speech you might not want to spend 500 hours finding the absolutely best words possible, but that doesn't mean that you're likely to skip using the fully functional pen you have to scratch it into the paper with your nails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You are correct, staying in Classic is similar but it IS a solution. It's like complaining that you don't like the taste of chocolate but you keep eating chocolate. Rather than the clear and obvious common sense solution of "stop eating chocolate", you push to make it taste like pizza.
    If you really think this is an apt comparison, then I am honestly at a loss for words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You thinking it's a non-answer doesn't make it a non-answer.
    It's true, me saying it doesn't make it so. You giving a nonanswer makes it a nonanswer. And it's a perfect nonanswer: "a response that fails to address the subject of a question : an uninformative or unsatisfactory answer"

    But let's do it like this, let's boil it down and focus. Because this conversation really lacks some of that and isn't really helpful for either.

    Let's take mount hunters and pet hunters as an example.

    Imagine if there was a vendor added to the game that sold every mount and pet in the game for a silver each.

    And then I'd like to pose two questions for you in this regard:

    1 - Do you think people would still do things like farming old raids 100 times for a mount when they could instantly buy it from the vendor?

    2 - Do you think mount and pet hunters would appreciate this addition to the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    TBC is what TBC is. We knew what it was from when it was out 14 years ago and people STILL make silly complaints about it. It reminds me of these younger generation gamers who came to the Retro gaming subreddit and complained about how we need to get online with our 8-bit Nintendo games.
    Oh, I couldn't give a rat's ass about whether any version of the game has flying or not. I'm solely arguing that "just don't use it then" in regards to OPs post is a response that fails to address the subject of a problem; an aforementioned nonanswer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Those two lines are at odds with each other. Why would people not choose being inconvenienced, if "being inconvenienced" is a good thing? Why would "literally no one ever choose to be inconvenienced"?

    It makes absolutely no sense from a logical and argumentative standpoint, from where I'm standing.
    Imagine if there was a version of the game where there was a vendor that sold every single mount for a silver.

    In that version of the game, do you think people would inconvenience themselves and farm a raid 100 times for a mount, when they can just buy it from the store instantly?

    Now, compare it to the current version of the game where there isn't such a vendor. Where someone has to farm the raid 100 times for a mount. And when they do and finally get it they have something they put their mind to and spent many hours on attaining. It might be somewhat unique as well, something that not everyone has.

    So the question is, do you think that vendor would be a good addition to the game?

    Farming the raid 100 times is an inconvenience when compared to the convenient choice of just buying it. It's not something the people will choose if the convenient option is there, but it's something they can prefer in the absence of it.

    That's the same with flying. Traversing a world filled with danger is an inconvenience compared to the option of flying. They will not inconvenience themselves when the option is in the game, but they would have enjoyed the game more if the option wasn't there, as questing and everything done in the open would would've had more weight and been more engaging and interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    They aren't ever gonna understand it lol. They'd buy that gear instantly and then complain there's nothing left to do because nothing is rewarding enough. At the same time telling u "lol just dont buy the gear then " while simultaneously not inviting anyone that doesn't have the gear. They don't understand how every single thing in an mmo affects everyone
    Thank you lol, glad someone understands outside of the ogre dude.

    The amount of "just don't use it" responses that thread has received is honestly just... disappointing.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So don't fly. Keep your immersion and sense of danger.


    Of course, like everyone who whines about flying, you won't do this.
    completely agree wiht this i wonder how many anti flyers destroyed the tome on retail when they got it, im guessing 0 did.....

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    completely agree wiht this i wonder how many anti flyers destroyed the tome on retail when they got it, im guessing 0 did.....
    To be honest, it reminds me of a toddler "I dont want to eat this, its yucky!!!" ok son, no problem, give it back and i will throw it out "NO! its mine, you cant have it *nibble nibble*"
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  14. #394
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    Imagine if there was a version of the game where there was a vendor that sold every single mount for a silver.

    In that version of the game, do you think people would inconvenience themselves and farm a raid 100 times for a mount, when they can just buy it from the store instantly?

    Now, compare it to the current version of the game where there isn't such a vendor. Where someone has to farm the raid 100 times for a mount. And when they do and finally get it they have something they put their mind to and spent many hours on attaining. It might be somewhat unique as well, something that not everyone has.

    So the question is, do you think that vendor would be a good addition to the game?
    Apples and oranges.

    Are you doing the dungeon/raid instances because you like doing the dungeon/raid instances or because you want the loot from those places? In other words: is "running the dungeon/raids" the goal, or the process for a desired result?

    The reason it's "apples and oranges" because the inconvenience here is being discussed as being the "desired result" not the process for said result.
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  15. #395
    "Eliminates sense of danger" is a weird way of saying "exposes poorly designed zones"

    Storm Peaks was designed with flying in mind during Wrath, and it works spectacularly. If they took that approach with more zones, locking flying behind patches and dumb achievements wouldn't be necessary.

    But WoW is dying and to milk every last dollar out of it they will withhold things like that now to get a sub spike on command.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    "Eliminates sense of danger" is a weird way of saying "exposes poorly designed zones"
    You mean design where you can just waltz into an enemy camp, kill its leader and leave without killing a single guard is "good design"?

    It really baffles me that some people equate a pretty logical barrier within a video game as "bad design".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-17 at 05:11 PM.

  17. #397
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You mean design where you can just waltz into an enemy camp, kill its leader and leave without killing a single guard is "good design"?

    It really baffles me that some people equate a pretty logical barrier within a video game as "bad design".
    That was a bad argument when Bashiok made it in WoD and it's still bad. If the quest design is to kill the named, but flight makes that too easy *change the quest*. "Kill Named and 6 of his guards."

    Boom, done.

    PS: As was pointed out when this lame 'argument' was first brought up, some classes already can evade the mobs by stealthing and get to the named without killing guards.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    If the quest design is to kill the named, but flight makes that too easy *change the quest*. "Kill Named and 6 of his guards."
    Because that hurts the perks of classes that can get through a camp unnoticed, it's a stupid "solution".
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    PS: As was pointed out when this lame 'argument' was first brought up, some classes already can evade the mobs by stealthing and get to the named without killing guards.
    Which is the a perk of a specific class.

    A rogue sneaking through a camp and taking out a priority target isn't the same as someone swooping down with a flying mount.
    That's their class fantasy, that's the advantage of playing a class with stealth, which are, among other things, assassins and assassins take out priority targets without fighting through the entire camp.

    It's like saying it's okay that every class has a heal, because Paladin, Monk, Shaman, Druid and Priest could already heal before.

    It's so damn hypocritical that you call this argument "lame", but equate the ability of two classes with the ability to skip any outdoor barrier with impunity and say "it's fine because rogues and druids can stealth past some mobs!".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-17 at 09:00 PM.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    As I stated to another person, not everyone engages in all content.

    As far as the 280% flying, soooooo few actually had that back in TBC. I played on a high population server and it was not common to see someone with 280.

    "Don't fly" do add because flying isn't going anywhere. It is what it is. Most of us going into TBC Classic knew what we were getting into. Yes, most of the complaints are fake complaints for people trying to wind others up but the points still stand.
    Not everyone has to raid karazhan but it is pretty much the baseline raid for T4 content. Karazan, all three tempest keep dungeons, certain areas to gather Manathistle if you're an herbalist, and both T5 raids all require flying until Blizz allows lock summoning in Netherstorm. Bottomline, it's as optional as raiding because you need to fly if you want to raid beyond Gruul's and Mags.

    I agree that very few had 280 back in the day but plenty do now including myself who's normally terrible at gold making in WoW. To the last point, nobody is expecting flying to go away. WoW is more likely to go F2P before that ever happens. This thread is more about looking at the issues flying introduced in hindsight. Going from the original classic before flying came about to tBCC and seeing the world turn trivial in terms of navigating around, I mostly agree with the OP. The devs likely regretted flying as well with endgame outdoor content keeping us grounded.
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  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    *snip*
    It's been said before, flying is just part of the game at this point. You may not like it, but it's not going anywhere. And people say "don't do it" because it's just common sense. You play a game with flying and don't like flying. So either don't fly or go play regular Classic. People adding in all these hypotheticals are just wasting reader's time.

    If someone doesn't like TBC the way it is, maybe it's just not for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    completely agree wiht this i wonder how many anti flyers destroyed the tome on retail when they got it, im guessing 0 did.....
    I guarantee none did either. I can KIND OF understand people complaining about features in retail, especially when they're new as it sometimes drives change but when people complain about features from Classic or TBC Classic that we knew were in the game 14+ years ago and knew they would be there going in is mind-boggling.

    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Not everyone has to raid karazhan but it is pretty much the baseline raid for T4 content. Karazan, all three tempest keep dungeons, certain areas to gather Manathistle if you're an herbalist, and both T5 raids all require flying until Blizz allows lock summoning in Netherstorm. Bottomline, it's as optional as raiding because you need to fly if you want to raid beyond Gruul's and Mags.

    I agree that very few had 280 back in the day but plenty do now including myself who's normally terrible at gold making in WoW. To the last point, nobody is expecting flying to go away. WoW is more likely to go F2P before that ever happens. This thread is more about looking at the issues flying introduced in hindsight. Going from the original classic before flying came about to tBCC and seeing the world turn trivial in terms of navigating around, I mostly agree with the OP. The devs likely regretted flying as well with endgame outdoor content keeping us grounded.
    Who has 280 will vary from server to server. I'm sure with the gold sellers being extremely abundant compared to 14 years ago, more will earn obtain flying.

    We'll never know if the devs regretted it but many like it. And I'm perfectly fine with forcing people to complete most or all story content in an area before allowing them to fly in it. While I don't like the aether currents, I do like how FFXIV forced you to complete the main story in a zone before you could fly there. You can also add more air hazards like that flying worm last expansion.

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