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  1. #121
    Yep. One of the biggest mistakes ever made by the WoW developers. They've admitted as much. Blatantly obvious that it completely trivializes all content on the ground. Glad you finally see how detrimental it is and has been.
    You think you don't, but you do

  2. #122
    i don't think flying is as bad as the op makes it out to be. i think the issue comes from the devs not wanting to design around it. tbc introduced flying, but it also had anti-air cannons at fortified fel encampments. this made flying optimal but not mindless. the things like the nzoth serpents aren't the same thing. they just fly around, not put in a set location. because of that, there is no set area for you to be wary of. it serves more as an annoyance than world building. when you hit those no fly zones in tbc, you knew there was some tough crap below and there might be something interesting.

    flying is an amazing feature but it needs to be designed around.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Or just flipping things on the AH. Or using crafting professions. Or farming dungeons. etc.
    And anything involving gathering professions if you chose to take those?
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    You anti-flyers keep talking like it's impossible to make gold without epic flying, it's kind of pathetic.
    Where did i say it's impossible to make gold without flying?

    The only thing that is pathetic is the BS you read into my post, despite this isn't even implied, when somebody wants to make gold via gathering, then you won't get around flying.

    And honestly, i'm not even vehemently against flying (even my favorite zone in the Game, Storm Peaks, is pretty built around flying), but what absolutely rubs me the wrong way is that whenever something related to QoL or convenience is being discussed, people act like freaking monkeys whenever someone dares to say that not every sort of QoL / convenience is a net positive for the game.
    Especially in regards to Classic / TBC, games that clearly seperate themselves from the modern game on the fact they are far less convenient towards the player.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    There's 2 classes with stealth, that has barely any stealth gameplay involved, it's just toggled invisibility really.
    Unless you improved stealth via talents, it's actually not that great, also considering rogues are effectively assassins, it very much fits the fantasy of their class to sneak through a camp and take out its leader.
    Same goes for Druids as they effectively copy the class fantasy of rogues.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    There's 2 classes with aggro resets. There's 2 classes with the ability to deathrun. In a lot of cases there's the opportunity to make mobs evade to ignore them.
    None of those are foolproofs methods, when you run into an enemy camp and get insta dazed, the chances are pretty bad to make to a safe spot.
    Mage invis is also pretty wanky to use in that kind of fashion as any direct damage taken breaks the effect and thus will likely lead to your death.

    Especially Soulstone / Reincarnation are essentially a shot into blue, when anything fucks that up, you wasted a 30min / 1hour CD.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Early days you can also usually count on someone else being there clearing the way up to a named mob, and just walk past them.
    Or you could invite him / her so both get the kill, have an easier time and possibly some social interaction?
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-19 at 11:37 PM.

  4. #124
    Bloodsail Admiral froschhure's Avatar
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    Bot thread with doctrine should be against tos.
    love WoWarcraft

  5. #125
    Wait, it trivializes content that is already trivial on the ground? I mean hey, if it's so trivial, you're welcome to only use your ground mount if you want to roleplay how scary and spooky these big fortresses are. What's stopping you?
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Or you could invite him / her so both get the kill, have an easier time and possibly some social interaction?
    I tried that, but it wouldn't let me. Something about factions.

    As for the other stuff being imperfect, there are some disadvantages, but all the other methods work even before we get to TBC, and they also work indoors. Stealth is way simplified, you can get remarkably close to an enemy's face before they see you.

    It's also worth mentioning that flying isn't foolproof either. Some areas have sufficient density, especially of patrolling mobs, that dropping down on top of an enemy is still dangerous. It also assumes that the mob you're dropping on is outdoors.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    I tried that, but it wouldn't let me. Something about factions.
    Considering you didn't specify it was someone from the enemy faction, i don't see your point.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    As for the other stuff being imperfect, there are some disadvantages, but all the other methods work even before we get to TBC, and they also work indoors.
    Simply because they worked before TBC (excluding Invis because the spell is effectively a TBC spell), doesn't mean they were foolproof, which is my criticism towards them.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Stealth is way simplified, you can get remarkably close to an enemy's face before they see you.
    Yes and that's fine, i don't see an issue with stealth considering it's limited to class(es) where it very much suits the fantasy and is frankly a huge boon for them.

    I leveled a druid in Classic, it was actually pretty cool to able to stealth through an enemy camp, take out the leader and sneak out without killing anything but the named mob, because on any class that doesn't have stealth (which is the vast majority) my experience would've been much different and more dangerous because i'd have to worry about patrols and fleeing mobs a lot more.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    It's also worth mentioning that flying isn't foolproof either. Some areas have sufficient density, especially of patrolling mobs, that dropping down on top of an enemy is still dangerous.
    The fact that you can basically check every spot before actually comitting (by not dismounting) removes that sort of danger quite heavily, pretty much any melee mob instantly leashes the second you take off.
    Enemy camps aren't completely covered in mobs, but thanks to flying you can easily access the safespots without fighting any mobs in front of them.

    Don't pretend that this is somehow remotely compareable to your methods presented.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    It also assumes that the mob you're dropping on is outdoors.
    You mean to say that mobs are more difficult to reach in places where you cannot fly?
    Now that's an observation i can agree on.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    If you hit 70 before reaching shadowmoon or netherstorm it means you were dungeon spamming. Period. Do not complain when you are the one who did it.
    You have no idea what you're talking about. I did every dungeon once and only once and I dinged 70 in late Blade's Edge. I was doing EVERY quest in every zone. You ding 70 before you touch Netherstorm or Shadowmoon.

  9. #129
    I like how the people who hate flying's only solution to the problem is to take it away completely and punish everyone because they don't have the self control to just select a ground mount instead of a flyer on their hotbar.

    I really wish they'd just make a server both on live and the TBC classic without flying so all the anti-flyers can go there and not drag the rest of the playerbase down into misery with them. We shouldn't have to suffer because you're a child that can't control themselves and you make yourself do something you hate just because it's available.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Also very fun when you are leveling and some 70 with epic flying just flys above you to corpse camp you.
    So you chose to be on a pvp server and expect pvp to be convenient for you?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbleach View Post
    I realized the very same thing the first time i unlocked flying. How easy it made doing quests, because those quests were not designed with that in mind. They never really went about a way of fixing this without outright placing it on hold, which still causes the same issue once its released.
    .
    I never thought badly of flying in original TBC.

    It's only after replaying Vanilla classic and all of regular<70 TBC that the difference really hit me in the face. It fundamentally changes everything about how you play the game and most of it in a negative way to player experience.

    Providing players more efficient transportation as they level is good, but how they did flying is a bridge too far. It just deletes almost all the outdoor world building.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering you didn't specify it was someone from the enemy faction, i don't see your point.

    You mean to say that mobs are more difficult to reach in places where you cannot fly?
    Now that's an observation i can agree on.
    Specifically on these two.

    Having other players that you cannot group with, but who can affect the gameplay flow as you progress towards an objective means that the tighter, more narrative driven experience that people claim to want out of being grounded simply doesn't exist in the open world, unless you are in a dead zone. This whole thing of being meant to fight through an encampment simply doesn't exist in shared quest areas, and it doesn't require grouping up for it not to exist either. Again, that is why instances exist, to provide that exact thing that people are claiming to want. It's already in the game, and it doesn't require removing flying from the main body of the game.

    Similarly, if you do want to have a mob that requires at least that someone is probably going to have to fight through a bunch of mobs, you can design the game in such a way that those mobs cannot be bypassed by flight, whilst still allowing flight outdoors.

    Of course all of this is based on another problem: If flying to a mob and taking on that mob and whatever leashes with it isn't dangerous, the encounter with that mob is too easy. There was never any danger, just a corridor of health pools. You aren't flying when fighting that mob. You're on the ground. If being on the ground and in combat isn't dangerous, banning flying doesn't introduce danger.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2021-06-20 at 12:34 AM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Having other players that you cannot group with, but who can affect the gameplay flow as you progress towards an objective means that the tighter, more narrative driven experience that people claim to want out of being grounded simply doesn't exist in the open world, unless you are in a dead zone.
    I think that's an extremely convienent excuse, because you cannot safely rely on this and on PvP realms, that very person can potentially add another layer of danger to it, because they surely won't just sit by when you pull a named mob with a 5min respawn timer.

    Bear in mind, dynamic respawns especially in those areas can be a real bitch, which happens largely due to multiple people killing mobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    This whole thing of being meant to fight through an encampment simply doesn't exist in shared quest areas, and it doesn't require grouping up for it not to exist either.
    It does, simply because sometimes you can reap the benefit of others clearing a portion of that, doesn't mean that there will always be people clearing the way for you.
    The emphasis is here reliability, which is why i also dimiss your strategies on most classes, because they're not reliable enough.
    You can however always rely on flying in any noncave area to skip mobs.

    And i also didn't raise the argument that grouping is mandatory, but it surely makes things easier for yourself and others.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Similarly, if you do want to have a mob that requires at least that someone is probably going to have to fight through a bunch of mobs, you can design the game in such a way that those mobs cannot be bypassed by flight, whilst still allowing flight outdoors.
    Potentially yes, Blizzard has however barely experimented with much "anti flight mechanics" outside of the Kaliri's in Skettis and Cannons are Ogri'la.
    I however assume that they've tried a bunch of other mechanics internally considering they've had quite a beef with flying, with nothing working that well.

    And frankly, those two mechanics weren't that good either, you could just flew high enough and then simply dive bomb towards your target or stay just above ground, so any melee mob would just ignore but still avoid any anti flight stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Of course all of this is based on another problem: If flying to a mob and taking on that mob and whatever leashes with it isn't dangerous, the encounter with that mob is too easy. There was never any danger, just a corridor of health pools. You aren't flying when fighting that mob. You're on the ground. If being on the ground and in combat isn't dangerous, banning flying doesn't introduce danger.
    I think the issue is obvious to anyone that has leveled extensively on Classic.

    By landing right behind a named mob, you bypass a lot of fights, fights which potentially involve other multiple mobs, which are naturally more of a threat towards the player, it's pretty easy to get overwhelmed at some points as we're not playing Retail where you can just blow CD's and mow everything down.

    This is the crux, the player can so much easily choose their fights, i don't need to fight potentially multiple mobs unless they're linked to my target, i hardly need to watch for any pats because i barely spend any time on the ground where they can aggro.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    You haven't "beaten the game" if you haven't done all of the quests already.
    That's not how beating a game works. Winning and completing are not the same thing. Getting to 70 is winning. Doing all the quests is completing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    You haven't "beaten the game" if you haven't done all of the quests already. Plus there are certain questlines and things you can only do when you're level 70.

    Flying takes the progression of getting stronger slowly with upgrades and tosses it completely out the window.
    See above for first point. Many RPGs have quests you can only complete after beating the game.

    Also, the reason I disagree with the third point is also said above. It's common in the endgame of RPGs to get a mode of transportation that makes world travel much easier. That is getting stronger. Getting around the world faster is the only outdoor progression past getting to 70.

  15. #135
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    All this anti-flying nonsense is all revisionist garbage.

    Flying was a major selling point in Burning Crusade. They sold it on the damn back of the box. People loved it.
    Flying was integral to WotLK. People loved it.
    When they announced old-world flying at the Cataclysm reveal, people at Blizzcon cheered.
    Flying didn't stop people from liking MoP one bit.

    People keep talking about these weird, obtuse design angles Blizzard needs to go back to to "make the game great again."

    Maybe, just maybe, they should go back to doing what they did in the past expansions lauded as the best (BC, wotlk, MoP) and allow flying from the getgo.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    most of it in a negative way
    It makes doing all the grinding faster. There are no downsides. (this is pure opinion. Yours is too.)


    To me this is like complaining about getting an airship at the endgame of a Final Fantasy game. To me, trivializing traveling is the norm for the RPG endgame.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    All this anti-flying nonsense is all revisionist garbage.

    Flying was a major selling point in Burning Crusade. They sold it on the damn back of the box. People loved it.
    Flying was integral to WotLK. People loved it.
    When they announced old-world flying at the Cataclysm reveal, people at Blizzcon cheered.
    Flying didn't stop people from liking MoP one bit.

    People keep talking about these weird, obtuse design angles Blizzard needs to go back to to "make the game great again."

    Maybe, just maybe, they should go back to doing what they did in the past expansions lauded as the best (BC, wotlk, MoP) and allow flying from the getgo.
    I think the real problem is the community's need to know everything all the time. Not knowing and having to actually discover new things is the biggest part of the magic of the genre.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    All this anti-flying nonsense is all revisionist garbage.

    Flying was a major selling point in Burning Crusade. They sold it on the damn back of the box. People loved it.
    Flying was integral to WotLK. People loved it.
    When they announced old-world flying at the Cataclysm reveal, people at Blizzcon cheered.
    Flying didn't stop people from liking MoP one bit.

    People keep talking about these weird, obtuse design angles Blizzard needs to go back to to "make the game great again."

    Maybe, just maybe, they should go back to doing what they did in the past expansions lauded as the best (BC, wotlk, MoP) and allow flying from the getgo.
    100% your opinion. I have hated flying since the original TBC. I know many people that also do. I also know many people that hate NOT having flying available from day 1 of an expansion. There is no right or wrong, everyone can have their own opinion on it.

    But don't pretend like those expansions were great because they had flying. Cata had flying day 1 and it was shit. WotLK would not have been considered bad if it never had flying added.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Actually I really like walking to work, I'll only accept a lift if time is an issue.
    Doesn't work, if your work is 10 miles away from your home and common transport covers only 7 of them, so you need to walk around 6 miles every day.

  19. #139
    Scarab Lord SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    It would definitely be interesting. I wonder if they could populate a server per region with people that don't want fying.
    Population of Classic Era Realms VS Population of the single TBC realm with no flying...
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    All this anti-flying nonsense is all revisionist garbage.

    Flying was a major selling point in Burning Crusade. They sold it on the damn back of the box. People loved it.
    Flying was integral to WotLK. People loved it.
    When they announced old-world flying at the Cataclysm reveal, people at Blizzcon cheered.
    Flying didn't stop people from liking MoP one bit.

    People keep talking about these weird, obtuse design angles Blizzard needs to go back to to "make the game great again."

    Maybe, just maybe, they should go back to doing what they did in the past expansions lauded as the best (BC, wotlk, MoP) and allow flying from the getgo.
    Yeah, totally agree. Flying was selling point in several xpacks and flying mounts were used as greatest rewards and motivation to do content. And it actually worked. It's just hypocrisy to say, that it's flying, that killed this game. At moment, when Blizzard tried to remove flying back in WOD, it was 50/50. We don't talk about it any longer. But it doesn't mean, that that second half of playerbase has changed it's mind and now loves no-flying. Simple thing - this half of playerbase has QUIT this game.

    Overall it's flying and LFD, that are considered to be the biggest Wow-killers, that started to kill this game at the end of WotLK and beginning of Cata. No. LFD was bad, because Blizzard refused to punish toxic players for ruining dungeon experience. Because when you assemble group manually - you can blame yourself only for picking bad players. And Blizzard allowed everybody to have access to dungeons, while put obligations on other players to carry them, no matter what. For example they allowed needers to press "Need" button on everything, when players were asking to restrict usage of "Need". It created category of toxic players, who cared about getting gold from selling enchanting dust only and didn't really care about other players in their party. And increased difficulty of dungeons only made things much worse. Because who cares about toxic players, if content is easy anyway. Or PVP players, who wanted to abuse PVE gear in PVP and PVP is synonym of toxicity, while lack of PVE skill and desire to do PVE content - are synonyms of mess.

    And we talked enough about flying already. Overall flying problem - is scale problem. World was big back in old times, so any amount of players had enough space to fit into it. Flying existed to compensate travel time in such big world. But then Blizzard decided, that they would save large amount of development costs, if they would just make world much smaller (as claustrophobic, as TI for example), remove flying and increase respawn rates to compensate. And nothing will change in players' experience. Problem is - it doesn't work. World doesn't scale well. Making it much smaller kills whole immersion. Because it's no longer about beating enemies. It's some sort of circus, where 100 players kill same 10 mobs on 2x2 spot and pretend, that they play RPG game.

    Another major problem with flying - is that Blizzard try to make an illusion, that Wow is MASSIVE game and that MASSIVE amount of players play it. For whom it's so important just to see, not even to interact, massive amount of players on small spot? For some "social" players? Big city kids, who can't live without traffic jams and rush hour in subway experience? According to stats only 10% of players are socializers. Funny thing. I'm not sure, if this is coincidence or not, but same amount of players were raiding back in old times. I understand, that this 10% of players are VIP players, because many Blizzard developers like Ion himself are also raiders. But it's not good idea to sacrifice 90% of playerbase to please just 10% of it.

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