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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by yeetcannon View Post
    I like how the people who hate flying's only solution to the problem is to take it away completely and punish everyone because they don't have the self control to just select a ground mount instead of a flyer on their hotbar.

    I really wish they'd just make a server both on live and the TBC classic without flying so all the anti-flyers can go there and not drag the rest of the playerbase down into misery with them. We shouldn't have to suffer because you're a child that can't control themselves and you make yourself do something you hate just because it's available.
    1. It isn't the players who take flying away it's the devs.

    2. If the game causes you misery and suffering maybe you shouldn't play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Doesn't work, if your work is 10 miles away from your home and common transport covers only 7 of them, so you need to walk around 6 miles every day.
    That's not really relevant in WoW where travel is a matter or minutes not hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, totally agree. Flying was selling point in several xpacks and flying mounts were used as greatest rewards and motivation to do content. And it actually worked. It's just hypocrisy to say, that it's flying, that killed this game. At moment, when Blizzard tried to remove flying back in WOD, it was 50/50. We don't talk about it any longer. But it doesn't mean, that that second half of playerbase has changed it's mind and now loves no-flying. Simple thing - this half of playerbase has QUIT this game.

    Overall it's flying and LFD, that are considered to be the biggest Wow-killers, that started to kill this game at the end of WotLK and beginning of Cata. No. LFD was bad, because Blizzard refused to punish toxic players for ruining dungeon experience. Because when you assemble group manually - you can blame yourself only for picking bad players. And Blizzard allowed everybody to have access to dungeons, while put obligations on other players to carry them, no matter what. For example they allowed needers to press "Need" button on everything, when players were asking to restrict usage of "Need". It created category of toxic players, who cared about getting gold from selling enchanting dust only and didn't really care about other players in their party. And increased difficulty of dungeons only made things much worse. Because who cares about toxic players, if content is easy anyway. Or PVP players, who wanted to abuse PVE gear in PVP and PVP is synonym of toxicity, while lack of PVE skill and desire to do PVE content - are synonyms of mess.

    And we talked enough about flying already. Overall flying problem - is scale problem. World was big back in old times, so any amount of players had enough space to fit into it. Flying existed to compensate travel time in such big world. But then Blizzard decided, that they would save large amount of development costs, if they would just make world much smaller (as claustrophobic, as TI for example), remove flying and increase respawn rates to compensate. And nothing will change in players' experience. Problem is - it doesn't work. World doesn't scale well. Making it much smaller kills whole immersion. Because it's no longer about beating enemies. It's some sort of circus, where 100 players kill same 10 mobs on 2x2 spot and pretend, that they play RPG game.

    Another major problem with flying - is that Blizzard try to make an illusion, that Wow is MASSIVE game and that MASSIVE amount of players play it. For whom it's so important just to see, not even to interact, massive amount of players on small spot? For some "social" players? Big city kids, who can't live without traffic jams and rush hour in subway experience? According to stats only 10% of players are socializers. Funny thing. I'm not sure, if this is coincidence or not, but same amount of players were raiding back in old times. I understand, that this 10% of players are VIP players, because many Blizzard developers like Ion himself are also raiders. But it's not good idea to sacrifice 90% of playerbase to please just 10% of it.
    Couple of odd thoughts here. First up I don't think there is any signs that the later zones were cheaper to make. They weren't even universally smaller. Pandaria and Broken Isles are about the same size for example. Draenor is a fair bit bigger.

    Also what makes you think no-flying benefits raiders? Surely those players would prefer flying to get the chores out of the way. No-flying is for people who prefer world content to feel more like the leveling experience.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    That's not really relevant in WoW where travel is a matter or minutes not hours.
    It is. It's ok to walk to your job, if it's in a next building or may be 0.5 miles max away. But if it's much further, that it puts large amount of unnecessary fatigue on you on daily basis, then you start to get tired enough to not do your job properly. That's, what actually happens with Wow. Oribos trip and riding to every WQ takes too much time and effort. I don't even talk about Maw, that is designed around making traveling much harder. Back in BFA you were actually spending more time on traveling between WQs, than on doing WQs themselves. Blizzard tried to fix it in SL via decreasing amount of WQs and making them harder and longer to do, but it didn't help, cuz it removed one of important aspects of WQs themselves - choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Couple of odd thoughts here. First up I don't think there is any signs that the later zones were cheaper to make. They weren't even universally smaller. Pandaria and Broken Isles are about the same size for example. Draenor is a fair bit bigger.

    Also what makes you think no-flying benefits raiders? Surely those players would prefer flying to get the chores out of the way. No-flying is for people who prefer world content to feel more like the leveling experience.
    It's not about size of locations themselves. It's about size of questing spots. Back in old times quest mobs for some quest were walking on half of location. For example harpies were flying around whole north-west corner of Barrens. It allowed players to approach them from any direction and spread enough not to clash in traffic jams and queues. Game was designed to be massive. It was actually Cata, where Blizzard started to use lazy design. Because lazy players arrive at flightpath anyway and refuse to go further, than 100m from it. So why should Blizzard have made bigger questing spots? They just didn't want to abuse such design as their core game design till late MOP.

  3. #143
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    100% your opinion. I have hated flying since the original TBC. I know many people that also do. I also know many people that hate NOT having flying available from day 1 of an expansion. There is no right or wrong, everyone can have their own opinion on it.

    But don't pretend like those expansions were great because they had flying. Cata had flying day 1 and it was shit. WotLK would not have been considered bad if it never had flying added.
    Wotlk would never have been designed with the scope it had been without flying.

    As far as no “right or wrong,” only one “preferred” playstyle… that of forcing everyone not to fly… actually forces players to play the game a certain way.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  4. #144
    Pandaren Monk bryroo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is the classic forum buddy.
    And you have two versions or Classic; one with flying and one without. Problem solved.

    Stay away from BC and you immersion will be pristine.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    The biggest mistake here - is that you count current players only, not potential players, that are unsubbed due to this problem, but would resub, if it would be fixed. As I've already said, there is some feedback between what Blizzard do and what their current playerbase wants, because their current playerbase changes according to what they do. It's like boss on your job, who decided, that everybody needs to work 12 hours a day and who disagrees - should be fired. At some point only those, who agree to work for 12 hours, will remain and of course 100% of them will agree to do it. So using such metric to determine, what employees want - is complete nonsense.

    According to some metrics, both Wow versions have already dropped below FF14 playerbase and are around just 2M. But all of a sudden playerbase rises to ~7M and may be even 10M, when new patch is released. But fades pretty quick after that. This 5-8M - are potential players. I'm one of such players. And I clearly say, WHY I drop so quick after xpack/patch releases. But Blizzard don't listen to me. They still think, that this game doesn't have enough endless grinds. They still don't make any difference between "not enough content" and "not enough GOOD content".
    No one is unsubbed only because of flying.

  6. #146
    Bloodsail Admiral Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I really, really don't understand the mentality around flying (and other things as well). You don't like flying? Don't use it. Instead of being happy for having something that makes your life easier people find a reason to whine about it. It's like in raids when certain people find more fulfillment when somebody else doesn't get a loot then if they get a loot themselves.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMatticus View Post
    No one is unsubbed only because of flying.
    I am unsubbed because of no flying .....

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMatticus View Post
    No one is unsubbed only because of flying.
    Yeah, it's overall change in design philosophy, that has driven players away. That's why flying couldn't fix bad game design back in 8.2-8.3. But it's still one of the biggest part of problem. At least it helps with leveling a lot.

  9. #149
    Stood in the Fire Nak88's Avatar
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    Then don't fly. People were crying non-stop because they were getting ganked in the first weeks of leveling, now are there people complaining about a feature that prevents you from getting ganked? KEKW.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Nak88 View Post
    Then don't fly. People were crying non-stop because they were getting ganked in the first weeks of leveling, now are there people complaining about a feature that prevents you from getting ganked? KEKW.
    i mean if you don't like being ganked, play on a PVE server.
    Dumb Answer, deserved a Dumb reaction. hihihihihi9 KEKW.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    Population of Classic Era Realms VS Population of the single TBC realm with no flying...
    More a case of: Is there enough demand for a 'No Flying TBC realm' to actually allow for a vibrant server?

  12. #152
    here's the other side of this, by blocking my ability to fly you are ruining my immersion i love flying high in the sky everything looks soo much better form up in the air and you anti flyers are ruining that for me, no1 gives a crap about old content once you hit max level its obsolete, of no danger to you.

    i am NOT forcing you to fly but you RE forcing me to be grounded for x months

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    More a case of: Is there enough demand for a 'No Flying TBC realm' to actually allow for a vibrant server?
    I find this a pretty stupid concept because TBC is to some extent designed around flying.

    When you compare the zone design of Classic and TBC, you'll quickly notice that Classic rarely has any hills / mountains to climb that aren't easily accessible in the middle of a zone, neither does it have deep gorges like in Nagrand, which are a big pain to get out of without flying.

    The TBC zones, at least geographically, are very much designed around flying, that's why you have a zone such as Blade edge's with its multiple plateaus, Nagrand with its Gorges and huge Lakes, Netherstorm with its multiple "islands", etc..
    Sure, you can traverse them without flying, but one can't deny the massive advantage flying grants within a zone (putting the mountain ranges seperating each zone aside) in TBC.

    The Classic zones, for the most part, are relatively even surfaces surrounded by a mountain range, there are rarely geographical features right in the center of a zone that are a massive hassle to get around.
    Noteable exception is Azshara, but that's ironically one of the least relevant zones in all of Classic.

    And that's not even addressing the elephant in the room, which is content that flat out does not work without flying in TBC, installing teleporters / flightpoint to areas that cannot be reached without flying don't work that well.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It is. It's ok to walk to your job, if it's in a next building or may be 0.5 miles max away. But if it's much further, that it puts large amount of unnecessary fatigue on you on daily basis, then you start to get tired enough to not do your job properly. That's, what actually happens with Wow. Oribos trip and riding to every WQ takes too much time and effort. I don't even talk about Maw, that is designed around making traveling much harder. Back in BFA you were actually spending more time on traveling between WQs, than on doing WQs themselves. Blizzard tried to fix it in SL via decreasing amount of WQs and making them harder and longer to do, but it didn't help, cuz it removed one of important aspects of WQs themselves - choice.
    Getting around in flying expansions was way more tedious and just as time consuming. At least with a ground mount you're not just pointing in a direction and waiting.

    It's not about size of locations themselves. It's about size of questing spots. Back in old times quest mobs for some quest were walking on half of location. For example harpies were flying around whole north-west corner of Barrens. It allowed players to approach them from any direction and spread enough not to clash in traffic jams and queues. Game was designed to be massive. It was actually Cata, where Blizzard started to use lazy design. Because lazy players arrive at flightpath anyway and refuse to go further, than 100m from it. So why should Blizzard have made bigger questing spots? They just didn't want to abuse such design as their core game design till late MOP.
    And in other areas there were barely any quest mobs and you had to wait ages for respawns, especially when there was no tags and horrendous drop-rates. If you don't like having to wait around and compete with other players then previous expansions should have been way more frustrating for you regardless of flying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Wotlk would never have been designed with the scope it had been without flying.

    As far as no “right or wrong,” only one “preferred” playstyle… that of forcing everyone not to fly… actually forces players to play the game a certain way.
    Most of WotLK was designed to be tackled without flying, it's only Storm Peaks and Icecrown that really needed a flying mount and while I found one an excellent experience the other was made incredibly dull by being able to fly.

    And whilst there's no right or wrong answer about what is objectively "good," there is a right or wrong answer as to what sort of content Blizz want to develop and what works for the player-base as a whole (as in what does their internal metrics show to be successful, not what is complained about on the forums.)

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    That's not how beating a game works. Winning and completing are not the same thing. Getting to 70 is winning. Doing all the quests is completing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    See above for first point. Many RPGs have quests you can only complete after beating the game.

    Also, the reason I disagree with the third point is also said above. It's common in the endgame of RPGs to get a mode of transportation that makes world travel much easier. That is getting stronger. Getting around the world faster is the only outdoor progression past getting to 70.
    Bruh. "beating the game" is clearing the raids, my man.

  16. #156
    oh man, stealth really takes all the danger out of the world, doesn't it. what is the point of having a fortress when you can just stealth past all the mobs, kill the both and stealth out?


    in case its not clear, I'm being sarcastic here. because this is what this argument sounds like. do you know what the solution to stealth is? don't play a character that has it, or... just don't use it.

    same as solution to flight! if you want to feel the sense of danger in a world you so crave? you can stay on the ground, you know, and only use your flying mount to get to places that require it.

  17. #157
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryroo View Post
    Who are you competing with? All of this content is over a decade old.

    And fantastic news, since all of you hate flying, Classic has no flying, so you can play it forever and never have this problem again.
    Yes, but TBC, which has some of my favorite zones of all time, does.
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    oh man, stealth really takes all the danger out of the world, doesn't it. what is the point of having a fortress when you can just stealth past all the mobs, kill the both and stealth out?


    in case its not clear, I'm being sarcastic here. because this is what this argument sounds like. do you know what the solution to stealth is? don't play a character that has it, or... just don't use it.

    same as solution to flight! if you want to feel the sense of danger in a world you so crave? you can stay on the ground, you know, and only use your flying mount to get to places that require it.
    completely agree with this stealth also removes any danger of the extremely beloved wpvp, don't like it don't use it simple as that stop ruining it for outers

    and fyi i know he's being sarcastic but my point still stands

  19. #159
    The biggest mistake the developers made with the game was the removal of the ability to use ground mounts when flying is enabled.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgeezer View Post
    The biggest mistake the developers made with the game was the removal of the ability to use ground mounts when flying is enabled.
    they never removed that, it's still in the game, people just want something to while about, if you don't want to fly don't it's that simple

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