Flying really does make the world lose any sense of danger

[WowIsDead64]

That's not really relevant in WoW where travel is a matter or minutes not hours.

It is. It's ok to walk to your job, if it's in a next building or may be 0.5 miles max away. But if it's much further, that it puts large amount of unnecessary fatigue on you on daily basis, then you start to get tired enough to not do your job properly. That's, what actually happens with Wow. Oribos trip and riding to every WQ takes too much time and effort. I don't even talk about Maw, that is designed around making traveling much harder. Back in BFA you were actually spending more time on traveling between WQs, than on doing WQs themselves. Blizzard tried to fix it in SL via decreasing amount of WQs and making them harder and longer to do, but it didn't help, cuz it removed one of important aspects of WQs themselves - choice.

Couple of odd thoughts here. First up I don't think there is any signs that the later zones were cheaper to make. They weren't even universally smaller. Pandaria and Broken Isles are about the same size for example. Draenor is a fair bit bigger.

Also what makes you think no-flying benefits raiders? Surely those players would prefer flying to get the chores out of the way. No-flying is for people who prefer world content to feel more like the leveling experience.

It's not about size of locations themselves. It's about size of questing spots. Back in old times quest mobs for some quest were walking on half of location. For example harpies were flying around whole north-west corner of Barrens. It allowed players to approach them from any direction and spread enough not to clash in traffic jams and queues. Game was designed to be massive. It was actually Cata, where Blizzard started to use lazy design. Because lazy players arrive at flightpath anyway and refuse to go further, than 100m from it. So why should Blizzard have made bigger questing spots? They just didn't want to abuse such design as their core game design till late MOP.

[Kaleredar]

100% your opinion. I have hated flying since the original TBC. I know many people that also do. I also know many people that hate NOT having flying available from day 1 of an expansion. There is no right or wrong, everyone can have their own opinion on it.

But don't pretend like those expansions were great because they had flying. Cata had flying day 1 and it was shit. WotLK would not have been considered bad if it never had flying added.

Wotlk would never have been designed with the scope it had been without flying.

As far as no “right or wrong,” only one “preferred” playstyle… that of forcing everyone not to fly… actually forces players to play the game a certain way.

[bryroo]

This is the classic forum buddy.

And you have two versions or Classic; one with flying and one without. Problem solved.

Stay away from BC and you immersion will be pristine.

[MrMatticus]

The biggest mistake here - is that you count current players only, not potential players, that are unsubbed due to this problem, but would resub, if it would be fixed. As I've already said, there is some feedback between what Blizzard do and what their current playerbase wants, because their current playerbase changes according to what they do. It's like boss on your job, who decided, that everybody needs to work 12 hours a day and who disagrees - should be fired. At some point only those, who agree to work for 12 hours, will remain and of course 100% of them will agree to do it. So using such metric to determine, what employees want - is complete nonsense.

According to some metrics, both Wow versions have already dropped below FF14 playerbase and are around just 2M. But all of a sudden playerbase rises to ~7M and may be even 10M, when new patch is released. But fades pretty quick after that. This 5-8M - are potential players. I'm one of such players. And I clearly say, WHY I drop so quick after xpack/patch releases. But Blizzard don't listen to me. They still think, that this game doesn't have enough endless grinds. They still don't make any difference between "not enough content" and "not enough GOOD content".

No one is unsubbed only because of flying.

[Vasilisa]

I really, really don't understand the mentality around flying (and other things as well). You don't like flying? Don't use it. Instead of being happy for having something that makes your life easier people find a reason to whine about it. It's like in raids when certain people find more fulfillment when somebody else doesn't get a loot then if they get a loot themselves.

[Gamingsince1981]

No one is unsubbed only because of flying.

I am unsubbed because of no flying .....

[WowIsDead64]

No one is unsubbed only because of flying.

Yeah, it's overall change in design philosophy, that has driven players away. That's why flying couldn't fix bad game design back in 8.2-8.3. But it's still one of the biggest part of problem. At least it helps with leveling a lot.

[Nak88]

Then don't fly. People were crying non-stop because they were getting ganked in the first weeks of leveling, now are there people complaining about a feature that prevents you from getting ganked? KEKW.

[sejii]

Then don't fly. People were crying non-stop because they were getting ganked in the first weeks of leveling, now are there people complaining about a feature that prevents you from getting ganked? KEKW.

i mean if you don't like being ganked, play on a PVE server.
Dumb Answer, deserved a Dumb reaction. hihihihihi9 KEKW.

[jellmoo]

Population of Classic Era Realms VS Population of the single TBC realm with no flying...

More a case of: Is there enough demand for a 'No Flying TBC realm' to actually allow for a vibrant server?

[thunderdragon2]

here's the other side of this, by blocking my ability to fly you are ruining my immersion i love flying high in the sky everything looks soo much better form up in the air and you anti flyers are ruining that for me, no1 gives a crap about old content once you hit max level its obsolete, of no danger to you.

i am NOT forcing you to fly but you RE forcing me to be grounded for x months

[Kralljin]

More a case of: Is there enough demand for a 'No Flying TBC realm' to actually allow for a vibrant server?

I find this a pretty stupid concept because TBC is to some extent designed around flying.

When you compare the zone design of Classic and TBC, you'll quickly notice that Classic rarely has any hills / mountains to climb that aren't easily accessible in the middle of a zone, neither does it have deep gorges like in Nagrand, which are a big pain to get out of without flying.

The TBC zones, at least geographically, are very much designed around flying, that's why you have a zone such as Blade edge's with its multiple plateaus, Nagrand with its Gorges and huge Lakes, Netherstorm with its multiple "islands", etc..
Sure, you can traverse them without flying, but one can't deny the massive advantage flying grants within a zone (putting the mountain ranges seperating each zone aside) in TBC.

The Classic zones, for the most part, are relatively even surfaces surrounded by a mountain range, there are rarely geographical features right in the center of a zone that are a massive hassle to get around.
Noteable exception is Azshara, but that's ironically one of the least relevant zones in all of Classic.

And that's not even addressing the elephant in the room, which is content that flat out does not work without flying in TBC, installing teleporters / flightpoint to areas that cannot be reached without flying don't work that well.

[Dhrizzle]

It is. It's ok to walk to your job, if it's in a next building or may be 0.5 miles max away. But if it's much further, that it puts large amount of unnecessary fatigue on you on daily basis, then you start to get tired enough to not do your job properly. That's, what actually happens with Wow. Oribos trip and riding to every WQ takes too much time and effort. I don't even talk about Maw, that is designed around making traveling much harder. Back in BFA you were actually spending more time on traveling between WQs, than on doing WQs themselves. Blizzard tried to fix it in SL via decreasing amount of WQs and making them harder and longer to do, but it didn't help, cuz it removed one of important aspects of WQs themselves - choice.

Getting around in flying expansions was way more tedious and just as time consuming. At least with a ground mount you're not just pointing in a direction and waiting.

It's not about size of locations themselves. It's about size of questing spots. Back in old times quest mobs for some quest were walking on half of location. For example harpies were flying around whole north-west corner of Barrens. It allowed players to approach them from any direction and spread enough not to clash in traffic jams and queues. Game was designed to be massive. It was actually Cata, where Blizzard started to use lazy design. Because lazy players arrive at flightpath anyway and refuse to go further, than 100m from it. So why should Blizzard have made bigger questing spots? They just didn't want to abuse such design as their core game design till late MOP.

And in other areas there were barely any quest mobs and you had to wait ages for respawns, especially when there was no tags and horrendous drop-rates. If you don't like having to wait around and compete with other players then previous expansions should have been way more frustrating for you regardless of flying.

- - - Updated - - -

Wotlk would never have been designed with the scope it had been without flying.

As far as no “right or wrong,” only one “preferred” playstyle… that of forcing everyone not to fly… actually forces players to play the game a certain way.

Most of WotLK was designed to be tackled without flying, it's only Storm Peaks and Icecrown that really needed a flying mount and while I found one an excellent experience the other was made incredibly dull by being able to fly.

And whilst there's no right or wrong answer about what is objectively "good," there is a right or wrong answer as to what sort of content Blizz want to develop and what works for the player-base as a whole (as in what does their internal metrics show to be successful, not what is complained about on the forums.)

[Hctaz]

That's not how beating a game works. Winning and completing are not the same thing. Getting to 70 is winning. Doing all the quests is completing.

- - - Updated - - -



See above for first point. Many RPGs have quests you can only complete after beating the game.

Also, the reason I disagree with the third point is also said above. It's common in the endgame of RPGs to get a mode of transportation that makes world travel much easier. That is getting stronger. Getting around the world faster is the only outdoor progression past getting to 70.

Bruh. "beating the game" is clearing the raids, my man.

[Witchblade77]

oh man, stealth really takes all the danger out of the world, doesn't it. what is the point of having a fortress when you can just stealth past all the mobs, kill the both and stealth out?


in case its not clear, I'm being sarcastic here. because this is what this argument sounds like. do you know what the solution to stealth is? don't play a character that has it, or... just don't use it.

same as solution to flight! if you want to feel the sense of danger in a world you so crave? you can stay on the ground, you know, and only use your flying mount to get to places that require it.

[DeltrusDisc]

Who are you competing with? All of this content is over a decade old.

And fantastic news, since all of you hate flying, Classic has no flying, so you can play it forever and never have this problem again.

Yes, but TBC, which has some of my favorite zones of all time, does.

[thunderdragon2]

oh man, stealth really takes all the danger out of the world, doesn't it. what is the point of having a fortress when you can just stealth past all the mobs, kill the both and stealth out?


in case its not clear, I'm being sarcastic here. because this is what this argument sounds like. do you know what the solution to stealth is? don't play a character that has it, or... just don't use it.

same as solution to flight! if you want to feel the sense of danger in a world you so crave? you can stay on the ground, you know, and only use your flying mount to get to places that require it.

completely agree with this stealth also removes any danger of the extremely beloved wpvp, don't like it don't use it simple as that stop ruining it for outers

and fyi i know he's being sarcastic but my point still stands

[oldgeezer]

The biggest mistake the developers made with the game was the removal of the ability to use ground mounts when flying is enabled.

[thunderdragon2]

The biggest mistake the developers made with the game was the removal of the ability to use ground mounts when flying is enabled.

they never removed that, it's still in the game, people just want something to while about, if you don't want to fly don't it's that simple

[Thuunda]

So dont fly? like, just dont do it... if you dont like something why do it? why even train it? I guess the one place i can think of that you NEED flying is the netherstorm dungeons... but maybe only use your flying mount to get to them?

But if your objective here is "i dont like a thing, so no one should" get fucked.