Flying really does make the world lose any sense of danger

[kail]

I do see the argument, I just dont agree with it. And everyone keeps ignoring the countless ways wpvp could be avoided since day 1, such as stealth, for example.

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GW2 allows you to port all over the world instantly as well, and yes, FF14 has flying as well, but to be fair, PvP isnt exactly what FF is known for.....

Stealth is only available for two classes and is a unique advantage for world pvp. GW2 had no world pvp so not sure why that's being compared.

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This, add some gameplay, not sure about some of the examples, but flying needs something... or at least add some feel to it.
100% responsive in all directions with insta turning which is only limited to how quick you move the mouse makes flying just awful. It's just not fun to engage in a system like this, but you still do it because of the huge advantage.

Flying needs weight in it's movement.

Would have been a neat thing if different mounts had different speeds, durability/duration. That winged creature can't keep ur heavy character afloat forever so either park it, feed it, etc. Something like that could have worked ok, addibg some RP to the flying mount mechanic.

[kneehidude]

At the same time, PvP Servers are generally more popular than PvE Servers.
According to Ironforge.io, you have more than thrice as many players on PvP Servers than PvE ones.

Also that data is purely based on PvE metrics, not PvP ones.
Disregarding that for some odd reason, we also have far more PvP Servers than PvE ones.

The duality of man.

And a lot of those PvP servers are lopsided. Some to the point of essentially being PvE servers. For instance (using Ironforge.pro) Herod is 77% horde, 23% Alliance. Fairbanks is 72% Horde, 28% Alliance. Shazzrah is 75% Horde, 25% Alliance. Lucifron, and Skeram are 100% horde, 0% alliance. Heartstriker and Heartseeker are 100% alliance, 0% horde.

The list goes on. But the point I'm making here is that, clearly WPvP isn't super popular, at least according to these statistics. Why would horde on these servers play on them if they LOVED WPvP? Theres no WPvP to be had since they have so few alliance players. Or vice versa for the alliance dominated servers?

If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.

[Speedlance]

People want everything to happen fast while simultaneously have eternal amount of content. Flying is fine but blizzard makes zones based on ground exploration.

[Kagthul]

And a lot of those PvP servers are lopsided. Some to the point of essentially being PvE servers. For instance (using Ironforge.pro) Herod is 77% horde, 23% Alliance. Fairbanks is 72% Horde, 28% Alliance. Shazzrah is 75% Horde, 25% Alliance. Lucifron, and Skeram are 100% horde, 0% alliance. Heartstriker and Heartseeker are 100% alliance, 0% horde.

The list goes on. But the point I'm making here is that, clearly WPvP isn't super popular, at least according to these statistics. Why would horde on these servers play on them if they LOVED WPvP? Theres no WPvP to be had since they have so few alliance players. Or vice versa for the alliance dominated servers?

If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.

You cant get through to him. Hes been convinced for YEARS that wPvP was the “real deal” that everyone loved, when it never was. It died the moment instnced PvP was a thing, for good reason. It favors classes that can gank, not skill, and is almost always launched when one side is already heavily engaged. It was trash from day 1, which is why it died a whimpering death themoment instanced PvP existed.

[Bleu42]

But they are actually wrong and there is lots and lots and lots of evidence to prove them wrong. Flat earthers are actually stupid.

As far as my "fix for flying" is concerned - I am not factually wrong - if he doesn't like flying, he doesn't have to fly. He can very well traverse Outland on a ground mount and use flight paths when absolutely necessary. He is his own demise - he doesn't want to fly, but he does anyway because it's faster and just better

He could've choosen not to fly, but he didn't. End of thread

This is one the most disingenuous replies that I've seen, and it's a common one. It's used when the person doesn't have anything of actual substance to say, and would rather the entire topic go away.

If your only actual reply is to say 'well you don't HAVE to do it', then lets add pay to win. Money for mythic raiding gear. Money for every single mount drop in the game. Money for titles, money for xmog and money for pvp ranks.

Unless your reply is 'oh wait maybe my argument wasn't founded', then according to YOUR own stance you'd have to be completely okay with all of this, because you don't 'have' to do it.

[Chumahki]

Go talk to communists and tell them they can't use iPhone or other products of capitalism.

That iPhone is a product of communist China, my friend.

[Xeenith]

flying is like being vegan, those that like it this way want everyone else to do it like them.
I like flying, I like eating meat, and as long as it's available I'll stay this way.
just because flying/meat exist doesn't mean you have to use it, or try to forces others to forsake it because of your preferences.

[Kagthul]

That iPhone is a product of communist China, my friend.

Ermm, no, not so much. Its a product largely of Taiwan. You know, non-communist China. Not that im weighing in on whatever else the two of you are arguing about.

[Kralljin]

And a lot of those PvP servers are lopsided. Some to the point of essentially being PvE servers. For instance (using Ironforge.pro) Herod is 77% horde, 23% Alliance. Fairbanks is 72% Horde, 28% Alliance. Shazzrah is 75% Horde, 25% Alliance. Lucifron, and Skeram are 100% horde, 0% alliance. Heartstriker and Heartseeker are 100% alliance, 0% horde.

And how do you know that those servers started that way?

Take Lucifron, i played on that Server, it was actually pretty balanced.
Until Phase 2.

Same goes for a lot of other servers recently, Earthshaker was actually pretty balanced, but then became a refuge for Alliance players that got ganked one too many times because of insane Horde queue times.

Like, think about it for a moment, when you don't want any World PvP, you could just choose a PvE Server right off the bat and not use the data of some 3rd party website to guide your decision onto a Server where the thing you don't want could still happen.

Here's the bloody irony: Most PvP Servers became Horde Servers because of World PvP.

If people loved WPvP as you claim, these type of server imbalances wouldn't exist.

Most of these servers became that way because one side ganked the other into transferring.

[ohwell]

But they are actually wrong and there is lots and lots and lots of evidence to prove them wrong. Flat earthers are actually stupid.

As far as my "fix for flying" is concerned - I am not factually wrong - if he doesn't like flying, he doesn't have to fly. He can very well traverse Outland on a ground mount and use flight paths when absolutely necessary. He is his own demise - he doesn't want to fly, but he does anyway because it's faster and just better

He could've choosen not to fly, but he didn't. End of thread

No, it's not wrong to say you can choose not to fly, but it's just a fallacious argument towards the idea in general and you know it because it has been debunked ad nauseum.

[Zantos]

Disagree fully. Here are my reasons.

First, the world Never feels dangerous. It feels annoying at times, but not dangerous. Flying just makes it easier to get around without being bothered at all. They could easily add no fly zones, as they had in wrath, where you are dismounted if you fly there. The guards above cities in BC were a great way to add some no fly areas and make a certain portion a bit more challenging and like an actually, highly guarded fort. To me, that makes it feel even More like a highly guarded fort, because in a world full of magic and portals, why not guard the skies?

Second, I have found far more WPvP chances with flying then I ever did without. I am on a server that is horde dominated. Trying to find someone to fight is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Its a task that is actually possible when I can fly and see everything below me. As for the "they will just mount up and fly away", get over it. Its the same in literally any situation. If they see you and don't want to fight, they mount up and run as fast as they can/ Ground or air mount, it doesn't matter. If you're caught, you're caught and you wont catch them. If anything, flying makes it easier to spot you because your shadow is cast further ahead of you on the ground. The same argument applies to "but they'll land right on top of you while you're busy and kill you!!!11!". Literally will do the same on a ground mount. If you're busy and they catch the drop on you, it doesn't matter what type of mount it is. They could walk up to you and accomplish the same thing.

And last, design is better with flight in mind. I mean, come on. Secret areas only accessible to flight. Giant mountains and tall titan towers that need a mount to visit the top of. They make the world feel more dynamic to have these things. When you get zones designed exclusively for ground travel, you get bland and boring. Every area is meant to be reached on foot. The mountains hold no secrets since they are merely blockades and nothing more. The world feels more like an adventure where some old god hoisted his throne high above the clouds, were only those blessed with flight may travel to seek an audience. Without flight its like "hey, look at that flat picture on the sky that has zero depth or character".

Just my opinions on it. BC had some things right with how to make flight dangerous and exclusive.

[Kralljin]

They could easily add no fly zones, as they had in wrath, where you are dismounted if you fly there.

...you mean Dalaran and Wintergrasp?

One of which is a PvP Zone, where the no flight limitation pretty much undermines your entire argument that flying promotes world pvp.

If they see you and don't want to fight, they mount up and run as fast as they can/ Ground or air mount, it doesn't matter.

This is plain horse shit.
I have explained this above already.

If you manage to mount up on flying mount, you're gone unless the enemy manages to straight up one shot you.
If you manage to mount on a ground mount and they chase you, they can still catchup by using mountspeed items, you might run into some mobs and get dazed, you might be in a dead end and thus can't just run away from them in a straight line, because they are chasing you, they will cut corners and eventually catch up.

I have played Classic during Phase 2 extensively and the lack of flying is an absolute game changer for World PvP, because opponents aren't a 3 second cast away from avoiding the fight.

When you get zones designed exclusively for ground travel, you get bland and boring. Every area is meant to be reached on foot. The mountains hold no secrets since they are merely blockades and nothing more.

I disagree.

Finding some pathway up a mountain is actually pretty cool, with flying, virtually any mountain is the same, because i'll just land on the top without any hindrance.
For example, the pathway for the Fire Totem quest on Horde side involves taking some rather hidden pathway up a mountain, then with a good lookout over Durotar.

It feels special because you rarely get this view without flying, same goes for any other mountain in WoW, because you are constantly on the ground, any elevated position feels special because you rarely have this view, with flying, you always have it.

The world feels more like an adventure where some old god hoisted his throne high above the clouds, were only those blessed with flight may travel to seek an audience.

That would work if flying was actually some feature for the selected few, but it's literally available for everybody.

The closest thing WoW in general had was the Netherwing ledge and there it solely blocked off its dailies if you didn't have epic flying.

[Zantos]

...you mean Dalaran and Wintergrasp?

One of which is a PvP Zone, where the no flight limitation pretty much undermines your entire argument that flying promotes world pvp.

This is plain horse shit.
I have explained this above already.

If you manage to mount up on flying mount, you're gone unless the enemy manages to straight up one shot you.
If you manage to mount on a ground mount and they chase you, they can still catchup by using mountspeed items, you might run into some mobs and get dazed, you might be in a dead end and thus can't just run away from them in a straight line, because they are chasing you, they will cut corners and eventually catch up.

So, wintergrasp does not undermine anything. It was a PvP map, a failed one at that. I mean areas like in front of wrath gate and yes, Dalaran. Now, for the mount argument, its just flat out wrong. Mount speed items are rare. Exceedingly so. I did a ton of world PvP. In almost every case, mobs never really came down to it. They see you, mount up, and run. You then have to cast to mount up and the likely hood you catch them before they enter a city is slim to none. So, personal experience here from all of the world PvP I have done disagrees. Sure, a daze Might happen, and it Might help. Or it will boost their damage. Like on my warrior, I purposefully ran into mobs so I could get victory rush, and thus, keep healing myself pretty well. Most people will go in a straight line towards a safe spot.

Now, pathways are neat, if they are put in in the first place. In places like Sholazar basin or Storm Peaks, they didn't have paths to higher areas. Quests got you there or you had flying. Flying may be accessible by most, but it doesn't invalidate that they put more detail in zones were flight is going to be from the start.

[Zka]

U could get dazed on the ground and had to run thru mobs. Much more interesting than jumping on a 280% speed and disappearing into the sky

Interesting? The world you are looking for is FRUSTRATING.

[Kralljin]

So, wintergrasp does not undermine anything. It was a PvP map, a failed one at that.

"failed" by what metrics?

I mean areas like in front of wrath gate and yes, Dalaran.

I'm fairly certain you can fly just fine in front of the Wrath gate, at least after you've completed all the quests there.

Putting aside that those zones also are sanctuaries and thus do not allow PvP to begin with.

Mount speed items are rare. Exceedingly so.

One is a quest reward from Zul'farrak and the other two are enchants.
Heck, Mithril spurs have been super cheap throughout Classic because Blacksmiths use the recipe to level up.
The mats for the mount enchant cost like 3-5g, at best.

Is this exceedingly rare to you?

For someone who claims to have knowledge in Classic World PvP, this is a major faux pas.

I did a ton of world PvP. In almost every case, mobs never really came down to it. They see you, mount up, and run. You then have to cast to mount up and the likely hood you catch them before they enter a city is slim to none.

Considering that highlevel zones aren't exactly brimming with cities, that's pretty stupid.
Like, you have a single friendly hub in EPL for example, and the odds of you being able to ride a straight line from any place in EPL towards Chapel are next to none, let alone avoid any mobs along the way.

Same goes for Winterspring, due to the layout of the zone, unless they are approaching from the opposite direction (=Not from Everlook), you will not just be able to ride towards Everlook without them catching you.

Disregarding that certain hubs don't even have guards in highlevel zones, Chapel of Light had only a single patrol up until P6, Morgan's Vigil has virtually nothing, Thorium Point has nothing, Flame Crest has nothing.
Those hubs aren't the safe haven you make them up to be.

[Ielenia]

Thats not an option. Want to herb or mine to make money in the world? Can't just "not fly" cause all the flyers will take most of the nodes.

If you (general 'you', not you specifically) are complaining about the "lack of sense of danger" in the world because of flying, I am willing to bet that "making money herbing or mining" is not a concern for the player, and the solution is actually simply a case of "don't like lying? Then don't fly."

But if your concern is to make money by mining and/or herbing in Outland, then this is a case of you (again, general you) being an entitled butt who not only are refusing to use optimal methods, but also complaining that others are using those optimal methods. That's akin being on a race against other people, and complaining you're coming up last place consistently because you want to walk while everyone else is running.

[Zka]

That iPhone is a product of communist China, my friend.

China is not communist, it's state capitalist/socialist market economy. Communism is a ridicolous and completely unviable ideology which only produces poverty and suppression.

[ellieg]

Interesting? The world you are looking for is FRUSTRATING.

I'm not here to debate whether world pvp is fun. Im just here to prove that the addition of flying mounts changed it which a few posters seem to believe it has had 0 effect

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If you (general 'you', not you specifically) are complaining about the "lack of sense of danger" in the world because of flying, I am willing to bet that "making money herbing or mining" is not a concern for the player, and the solution is actually simply a case of "don't like lying? Then don't fly."

But if your concern is to make money by mining and/or herbing in Outland, then this is a case of you (again, general you) being an entitled butt who not only are refusing to use optimal methods, but also complaining that others are using those optimal methods. That's akin being on a race against other people, and complaining you're coming up last place consistently because you want to walk while everyone else is running.

My point was that existing in an mmo, means you are affected by what others are doing. All of vanilla you could ground mount around to herb and were on equal footing to everyone else. With Outlands, choosing to "just not fly" now puts u at a disadvantage. Im not advocating removing flying. Just pointing out that the poster's "lol just don't fly bro" doesn't change the fact that flying has altered multiple dynamics.

For your analogy, ill try to explain it like this. All your life racing was done by walking. All the sudden, they've allowed running. You preferred walking races. You wish you could go back to the days of competing in walking races because for whatever reason, you dislike running. All the races that exist now are running races. Being told "lol just walk then" does not solve your issue. Obviously you will now run because u wish to stay competitive, but you long for the days of walking races

[Ielenia]

My point was that existing in an mmo, means you are affected by what others are doing. All of vanilla you could ground mount around to herb and were on equal footing to everyone else. With Outlands, choosing to "just not fly" now puts u at a disadvantage. Im not advocating removing flying. Just pointing out that the poster's "lol just don't fly bro" doesn't change the fact that flying has altered multiple dynamics.

For your analogy, ill try to explain it like this. All your life racing was done by walking. All the sudden, they've allowed running. You preferred walking races. You wish you could go back to the days of competing in walking races because for whatever reason, you dislike running. All the races that exist now are running races. Being told "lol just walk then" does not solve your issue. Obviously you will now run because u wish to stay competitive, but you long for the days of walking races

Look, I'll just repeat this: if your concern is "sense of danger", then the solution is literally "then don't fly", because what others do or don't do doesn't really affect you with your "sense of danger". But if your concern is "being competitive", then, sorry to say, but tough shit. Either get with the program, or stop trying to be competitive. You can't eat your cake and still have it.

If you want to be competitive, then you cannot complain that you can't stop to smell the flowers and see the sights without finish the race in last place.

[ellieg]

Look, I'll just repeat this: if your concern is "sense of danger", then the solution is literally "then don't fly", because what others do or don't do doesn't really affect you with your "sense of danger". But if your concern is "being competitive", then, sorry to say, but tough shit. Either get with the program, or stop trying to be competitive. You can't eat your cake and still have it.

If you want to be competitive, then you cannot complain that you can't stop to smell the flowers and see the sights without finish the race in last place.

My point was all of vanilla you had both. Now you don't. Thats the change and yet some ppl are saying there has not been a change.