This is World of Warcraft - Carbot new video

[DarkAmbient]

That's a great video. It hits the spot because it so effectively illustrates the journey that World of Warcraft has had up to this point.

[Asrialol]

I get what you are saying! I really respect what you mean. But I firmly believe in the statement purely because older versions of the game were played by a far greater number of people who play the current one. That alone tells me people preferred the way the game was, and I can back that by the hype and player numbers generated by WoW Classic, number of twitch views, etc.

It very well could be, of course. But let's not completely forget that back in the days, WoW was one of those very few games where you could easily play with your friends and connect with your friends. We didn't have the same tools as we do to today to communicate and play with our friends. I'd think that if the gaming industry didn't become so much more social and easily accessible, WoW wouldn't have seen the same decline. Let's also not forget that the rapid growth WoW saw ended when Wrath came, which is what is considered the best expansion.

The amount of 'hype' and popularity of classic / classic tbc is nowhere near what it was back in the day either, wouldn't it be if the game was that good back then? Probably not, since the gaming industry and also the community and players in general has changed. Today I can pay 10-20€ per month and get access to hundreds of games, and in many of those games I can play with my friends easily.

I actually think WoW has done really, really well considering how things has changed with the industry as a whole.

Personally I absolutely loved the game in vanilla, tbc and wrath - more so than I do now, but that's only because of the community back then. I find the game to be far better now, but the toxicity of the gaming community (in general, not just wow) has just made the community declined oh so much.

Classic is also pretty much dead, as most of those people have moved on to classic TBC, which I also feel says something here. If anything the decline is probably due to a mix of our opinions, I suppose.

[Ludek]

The issue, that is poorly represented, is that LFG + Xrealm is the issue not LFG, if you get matched with people from the same server is no biggy

It kind of was. It forced you to interact with people and because of the time it took it also often made people be more tolerant towards others that were not so good and even help them to get better along the run so they can keep going instead of having to find a new one. I had many such occasions in tbc when I started playing. The lfg creates a gogogogo mentality where everyone is easily replaceable at any point and gives room to a lot more toxicity while removing any form of interaction.

But you know that this problem is WoW community itself, not the tool right?
Other games for some reason can work perfectly fine with a cross-server party finder tool, just in WoW it goes bonkers with the gogogog and fail=kick mentality you mentioned.

[T-34]

It kind of was. It forced you to interact with people and because of the time it took it also often made people be more tolerant towards others that were not so good and even help them to get better along the run so they can keep going instead of having to find a new one. I had many such occasions in tbc when I started playing. The lfg creates a gogogogo mentality where everyone is easily replaceable at any point and gives room to a lot more toxicity while removing any form of interaction.

Well, you have the exact same system now with M+, but on the other hand the players that care about their performance and respect the time of their fellow gamer now have much better tools and knowledge to filter out the toxic entitled players that just want a carry.

So the game is much less toxic now than it was before, but not for the toxic entitled as they now are much more likely to play with players like themselves. Justice...

[Tome]

It should have ended with the guy opening up and logging into FFXIV

[T-34]

Well this video is a perfect example of the mindset of a toxic entitled person:

He simply can't accept that other people can/will play the game in another way than he does and instead of finding like-minded people to play with and ignore what/who he doesn't like he tries to guilt-shame other people to go on his bandwagon.
He should do like the min/maxers are doing: Finding people like themselves and only play with them and not giving a flying fuck about how others play the game.

This is a video where a grown man, I assume, is crying like a 5-year old who has no agency over his own life. Pathetic.

[deenman]

I think a guy like him who's done really close collaboration with Blizzard would think twice before jumping on a hatewagon that could damage his business.

lol if asmon who is by far the nr 1 advert for blizz can make huge hate rants,im sure a nobody rando artist can make a small amateur lowkey cartoon no prob

[Delever]

lol if asmon who is by far the nr 1 advert for blizz can make huge hate rants,im sure a nobody rando artist can make a small amateur lowkey cartoon no prob

Blizzard never acknowledges asmon though and he has said the same thing himself.

[deenman]

I'll have to keep repeating myself.

Sure, whenever someone has a different opinion about something, it's just because it's popular, views, likes etc. It's not because maaaaybeee he's just passionate about the game and dislikes those things. Nah, that can't be it. /s

That "skip to the ending" part wasn't part of the level boost by the way. It was a separate thing in the video and a little bit of exaggeration. It was supposed to summarize all these boosts, "free" mounts, simplifications under this banner (or stand, as it is in the video). These things help you skip HUGE parts of the game (grinding/farming for mount, leveling, etc.) and "boosts" you NEARLY to the end, so in it's own way, it can be described as a skip to the ending.

But some people are oversensitive over any criticism towards their Blizzard gods and can't handle different opinions

I cant actualy bring myself to retort someone using that avatar,I am automaticaly checkmated

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard never acknowledges asmon though and he has said the same thing himself.

ofc not,90% of what he sais is negative,but whenever he makes something ingame there are legions of players swarming,his views are also more than the other wowstreamers combined,its obvious his rabbid fanbase makes up atleast half the wow subs

[Kralljin]

Other games for some reason can work perfectly fine with a cross-server party finder tool.

I find it odd, other MMO developers also point out that cross realm / dungeon finder can be very dangerous because it allows people to be assholes.

https://youtu.be/b2l2ZxNhCSg?t=2970

It's some insight from an MMO developer on lone player(s), who usually avoid grouping up and stay more solo.
The question obviously concerns dungeon finder and the answer is frankly pretty mixed because he straight up says that those features can enable pretty degenerate behavior because people can be assholes towards others without repercussions.

If developers from other games also note this, i doubt that this somehow unique to WoW, outside of being the biggest case study on the subject due to being the largest MMO, whereas a lot of others are simply more niche.

[Aucald]

While there's certainly a very subjective element at the core of the critique ("my friends moved on from the game/we're older now/etc.") you can't really discount the systemic element otherwise these videos and "critiques" wouldn't be as numerous as they are. It's not just that some people have grown out of the game because they have less time now, it's also about desolate and empty server communities that have been dying a slow death since MoP (and haven't managed to return even when big launches brought in a lot of returning players). If you don't play on one of the biggest servers, this feeling portrayed in the video is very real and immediate. I also don't think the cash shop is the reason for WoW's decline but it clearly coincides with it. It's a symptom of the game bleeding players (i.e. revenue).

What I think is more important are the declining RPG and social elements and the feeling of actually being part of a simulated world that has been lost over the years. It's the context which made people want to waste their lives in this world to begin with. To me, it's just very hard to believe that people with years of /played time invested in this world would merely quit because they're older now.

I discount it, I just think that it's less of a cause than it is a symptom of the game's very age - said age being the truer cause for why it can feel a bit desolate. In terms of video games, WoW is extremely old - its graphics and engine are very dated, and while great strides have been made to keep it relevant there will always be the clunkiness of a 17-year old piece of software trying to keep up with the Jones. So not only have its veterans, which I argue are the core of its stable population, largely departed slowly but surely as a product of growing older and just moving on - the game itself is ancient and lacks a lot of the flashy draw of newer RPG and MMO's with better graphics, refined systems, and innovations gleaned from WoW's own many successes and failures.

So instead of pinning "the failure of WoW" on a single thing like microtransactions, or boosting, or whatever I think the real issue is just the aggregate of age and understandable obsolescence. Nothing lives forever, and for everything there's a season, as the old proverb goes.

[Kralljin]

So instead of pinning "the failure of WoW" on a single thing like microtransactions, or boosting, or whatever I think the real issue is just the aggregate of age and understandable obsolescence. Nothing lives forever, and for everything there's a season, as the old proverb goes.

I dislike this notion, while not untrue, because it in my downplays the mistakes Blizzard has made over the years and especially in the context Classic / TBC, the arrogance of certain Blizzard employees (now President) certainly added fuel to that fire.

The way i see it, the success of Classic (and by extension TBC) is to some extent a rejection of how Blizzard has designed the game for the past decade, how they've thrown any sort of "blockade" under the bus for the sake accessability and frankly stripped the game of RPG elements because a given portion of the playerbase didn't like it (or rather, an audience they hoped to gain).
Blizzard essentially pretended that people who preferred that "Old school" style are some tiny, forgotten minority, largely fueled by nostalgia for the "good old days".
Now, it's actually been shown that group wasn't so tiny, that people actually left the game because they didn't like the direction, people that now returned to the game.

Of course, age is a factor, no needs to pretend that WoW still would have a gazillions subs if Blizzard hadn't done X, but when a company that blatanty rejects the viewpoint of a portion of their playerbase, only then having to concede multiple times that the thing they've rejected for years is actually pretty successful, they don't get to play the "oh well, the game is pretty old, too!" card.

One cannot control age, but one has control over the decisions they make - and Blizzard made some bad ones.

[Trbn]

first few pages of topic is too much KEKW of b. apologists who are getting aggressive towards persons opinions and feelings

pretty much sums up who still plays wow and why people leave

and even funnier they are calling others toxic

[deenman]

I dislike this notion, while not untrue, because it in my downplays the mistakes Blizzard has made over the years and especially in the context Classic / TBC, the arrogance of certain Blizzard employees (now President) certainly added fuel to that fire.

The way i see it, the success of Classic (and by extension TBC) is to some extent a rejection of how Blizzard has designed the game for the past decade, how they've thrown any sort of "blockade" under the bus for the sake accessability and frankly stripped the game of RPG elements because a given portion of the playerbase didn't like it (or rather, an audience they hoped to gain).
Blizzard essentially pretended that people who preferred that "Old school" style are some tiny, forgotten minority, largely fueled by nostalgia for the "good old days".
Now, it's actually been shown that group wasn't so tiny, that people actually left the game because they didn't like the direction, people that now returned to the game.

Of course, age is a factor, no needs to pretend that WoW still would have a gazillions subs if Blizzard hadn't done X, but when a company that blatanty rejects the viewpoint of a portion of their playerbase, only then having to concede multiple times that the thing they've rejected for years is actually pretty successful, they don't get to play the "oh well, the game is pretty old, too!" card.

One cannot control age, but one has control over the decisions they make - and Blizzard made some bad ones.

wile i would say the decline of retail is due to a thausands cuts over time,the popularity of classic is due in great part for nostalgia and simply because its different

but for me personaly both versions have become boring,so for some there is 100% the reason of ''nothing lives forever''

[Aucald]

I dislike this notion, while not untrue, because it in my downplays the mistakes Blizzard has made over the years and especially in the context Classic / TBC, the arrogance of certain Blizzard employees (now President) certainly added fuel to that fire.

The way i see it, the success of Classic (and by extension TBC) is to some extent a rejection of how Blizzard has designed the game for the past decade, how they've thrown any sort of "blockade" under the bus for the sake accessability and frankly stripped the game of RPG elements because a given portion of the playerbase didn't like it (or rather, an audience they hoped to gain).
Blizzard essentially pretended that people who preferred that "Old school" style are some tiny, forgotten minority, largely fueled by nostalgia for the "good old days".
Now, it's actually been shown that group wasn't so tiny, that people actually left the game because they didn't like the direction, people that now returned to the game.

Of course, age is a factor, no needs to pretend that WoW still would have a gazillions subs if Blizzard hadn't done X, but when a company that blatanty rejects the viewpoint of a portion of their playerbase, only then having to concede multiple times that the thing they've rejected for years is actually pretty successful, they don't get to play the "oh well, the game is pretty old, too!" card.

One cannot control age, but one has control over the decisions they make - and Blizzard made some bad ones.

As I said, that's my personal experience, and YMMV insofar as that goes. I won't argue Blizzard hasn't made mistakes with WoW - although "mistake" here always strikes me as a bit of a crutch, because we don't really know what the outcome would be if they'd made a different decision. I'm more inclined to say that Blizzard has made decisions I don't agree with, without the subliminal notion that I somehow know better, or that what I would've done would've been more successful or applauded. In a sense, the game's very longevity in the face of so many other MMO's that are now dust on the wind speaks to Blizzard's skill at handling their IP. If WoW were truly as mistake-riddled and mismanaged as some people try to claim I think it is obvious it would be in a much worse position than it is now, likely joining the mass grave of other MMO's before it: WildStar, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate: London, Vanguard, Asheron's Call, Warhammer Online, etc., etc.

Now, this isn't intended to be high praise for WoW - it's got its problems, and a lot of those problems are in my takeaway elements of a life-support system that has been created to pump artificial life into the game as it enters its dotage. From boosting (a way to ensure returning veterans can quickly return to what is considered the true meat of the game, its end-game systems) to the cash shop (ensuring a steady revenue stream) to the streamlining you mention above (an attempt to appeal to a new audience) - I would argue these are necessary allowances to keep an elderly IP afloat in a sea of changing demographics and innovating offerings. You may not like them, I don't like many of them, but I hypothesize that without them WoW may well have flatlined a long time ago.

[Kralljin]

wile i would say the decline of retail is due to a thausands cuts over time,the popularity of classic is due in great part for nostalgia and simply because its different'

1.Most people that play Classic / TBC do not play Retail (Blizzards word, not mine) hence the logic "it's just different" doesn't fly, especially as Classic and TBC aren't exactly to play as a "side game" due to sheer time requirements.
Playing both Retail and Classic / TBC is pretty exhausting, at least for a longer period of time.

It also needs to be pointed out that Classic / TBC have a lot more detrimental elements, such as
(1)No content is actually new
(2)Technologically inferior / lack of basic QoL stuff (talking mostly about addons that Blizzard over the years integrated into their standard UI)
(3)No Class (re)balances
(4)Oldass graphics

Yet people some people still choose to play Classic / TBC over the modern game, that's not just because people want to play a different version of WoW, it's because they prefer that version of WoW.

2.I don't think one can maintain a sizeable audience for a longer period solely on nostalgia, that's not how nostalgia works, nostalgia doesn't last for almost two whole years

In a sense, the game's very longevity in the face of so many other MMO's that are now dust on the wind speaks to Blizzard's skill at handling their IP. If WoW were truly as mistake-riddled and mismanaged as some people try to claim I think it is obvious it would be in a much worse position than it is now, likely joining the mass grave of other MMO's before it: WildStar, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate: London, Vanguard, Asheron's Call, Warhammer Online, etc., etc.

I think the comparison with other MMO's doesn't work because barely any MMO had the initial rush that WoW had, when looking at the sub graph, i don't necessarily think that the game would have plummeted to its "death" if Blizzard hadn't done certain things, simply because it has gained so much steam during Vanilla / TBC.

I mean, let's assume for a moment that Blizzard wouldn't have implemented LFD at the end of Wotlk, does one believe those 12M would have lost 60% of their subs in the next ~4 years?
I doubt that, the game had such a momentum at the time that Blizzard could have done a lot of shit and it still would have gone on for some time.

I mean, we can also reverse that, which MMO would have survived an expansion like WoD / BfA?
The survival of WoW in those cases can certainly not be credited to Blizzard, this because at the end of the day, the WoW community is a lot more loyal towards the game - a critical advantage that other MMO's rarely had.

Just to provide some numbers, if you have been subbed for the enterity of WoD, meaning 21 Months, you paid around 270 bucks worth of sub + 40 for the Expansion itself.
Meaning you gave over 300 bucks to Blizzard for the enterity of WoD if you've been subbed the entire time_just_to_play_the game (putting any MTX, including the WoW Token, aside), i do not think a lot of companies would have managed to pull off that trick.

And frankly, when looking at the overall state, i think that goodwill towards Blizzard finally starts to disappear and Blizzard can count themselves lucky that almost every upstart MMO came out during a time where WoW was at least subwise in its prime, because if a decent alternative to WoW existed during the last 3-4 years, WoW would be in an even worse situation.

You may not like them, I don't like many of them, but I hypothesize that without them WoW may well have flatlined a long time ago.

I'm not so sure about that, as said above, a game that survived expansions such as WoD or BfA is very hard to kill, because those were frankly points where Blizzard pretty much sabotaged themselves into failure and the rerelease of Classic has also shown that this "old school" audience isn't completely gone, either.

And there are certainly a lot of people out there that don't play Classic / TBC because you absolutely feel its age in certain aspects, i'm not pretending that one button rotations or bossfights with 1-2 abilities are peak MMO design.

[deenman]

1.Most people that play Classic / TBC do not play Retail (Blizzards word, not mine) hence the logic "it's just different" doesn't fly, especially as Classic and TBC aren't exactly to play as a "side game" due to sheer time requirements.
Playing both Retail and Classic / TBC is pretty exhausting, at least for a longer period of time.

It also needs to be pointed out that Classic / TBC have a lot more detrimental elements, such as
(1)No content is actually new
(2)Technologically inferior / lack of basic QoL stuff (talking mostly about addons that Blizzard over the years integrated into their standard UI)
(3)No Class (re)balances
(4)Oldass graphics

Yet people some people still choose to play Classic / TBC over the modern game, that's not just because people want to play a different version of WoW, it's because they prefer that version of WoW.

2.I don't think one can maintain a sizeable audience for a longer period solely on nostalgia, that's not how nostalgia works, nostalgia doesn't last for almost two whole years

you got any link on the most classic players dont play retail?i would think the decline of sl around the time of tbc launching would mean different

also i highly doubt the vast majority of private server players would want to play the modern wow client with its tweaks in classic

[Kralljin]

you got any link on the most classic players dont play retail?i would think the decline of sl around the time of tbc launching would mean different

John Hight said this around the SL / Naxx launch

Hight says that while Classic was far more popular than anyone at Blizzard expected, they also have found that one version of World of Warcraft is not cannibalizing the other -- rather, there's not much of overlap at all between people swapping between the two, and both communities are healthy enough he feels comfortable releasing major content updates (such as upcoming raids) in both games around the same time.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ld-it-ever-end

The decline of SL is because there nothing new for months and TBC is free as long as you remain subbed.

also i highly doubt the vast majority of private server players would want to play the modern wow client with its tweaks in classic

People are playing on the modern client in Classic / TBC, it's mimicking the old client.

[Laurathansal]

Hey man I fundamentally agree with you. I guess at the end of it I am purely nostalgic

[Aucald]

I think the comparison with other MMO's doesn't work because barely any MMO had the initial rush that WoW had, when looking at the sub graph, i don't necessarily think that the game would have plummeted to its "death" if Blizzard hadn't done certain things, simply because it has gained so much steam during Vanilla / TBC.

I mean, let's assume for a moment that Blizzard wouldn't have implemented LFD at the end of Wotlk, does one believe those 12M would have lost 60% of their subs in the next ~4 years?
I doubt that, the game had such a momentum at the time that Blizzard could have done a lot of shit and it still would have gone on for some time.

I mean, we can also reverse that, which MMO would have survived an expansion like WoD / BfA?
The survival of WoW in those cases can certainly not be credited to Blizzard, this because at the end of the day, the WoW community is a lot more loyal towards the game - a critical advantage that other MMO's rarely had.

Just to provide some numbers, if you have been subbed for the enterity of WoD, meaning 21 Months, you paid around 270 bucks worth of sub + 40 for the Expansion itself.
Meaning you gave over 300 bucks to Blizzard for the enterity of WoD if you've been subbed the entire time, i do not think a lot of companies would have managed to pull off that trick.

And frankly, when looking at the overall state, i think that goodwill towards Blizzard finally starts to disappear and Blizzard can count themselves lucky that almost every upstart MMO came out during a time where WoW was at least subwise in its prime, because if a decent alternative to WoW existed during the last 3-4 years, WoW would be in an even worse situation.

It's not just the comparison with other MMO's, but also that the very MMO genre is itself a product of its time and place and also appears to have a quantifiable shelf-life as a marketable one. One can only coast on steam for so far, too. In order for a thing in flight to stay aloft, to stretch this metaphor further, you need thrust from an external source to be maintained or else you eventually succumb to the forces of gravity and eventually touch down. LFD specifically wasn't really a life-sustaining measure added to WoW at its twilight, either; it was billed as a QoL improvement and as an answer to player complaints at the time (e.g. "it's so difficult and time-consuming to form groups only to have them break apart in a single wipe", etc.) YMMV as to whether it caused more damage than problems solved, of course; but as an argument, it's kind of neither here nor there.

I am not sure why you wouldn't credit such loyalty to Blizzard insofar as that goes, either? It is their creation this player base is loyal to, after all; a credit to the quality of the IP that it can garner and preserve said loyalty. Inability to garner and keep player interest (and thus loyalty) would be a condemnation of these other MMO's, not an underserved or unqualified machination on Blizzard's part. WoW has been massively successful on a scale heretofore unseen through its history, and while the time may soon be upon it to pass its crown to any of a handful of worthy successors, I don't think one can easily undercut the sheer success of the IP even now. Its persistence and the continued loyalty of its fans doesn't come from nothing, after all; it's not a trick of the light or sleight of hand.

I'm not so sure about that, as said above, a game that survived expansions such as WoD or BfA is very hard to kill, because those were frankly points where Blizzard pretty much sabotaged themselves into failure and the rerelease of Classic has also shown that this audience isn't completely gone, either.

Behemoths are usually hard to kill - but they can and do die, in this case when they live out their natural lifespans. The re-release of Classic is as much an attempt to breathe life into the game as any of the aforementioned elements above are, as well. While you are correct that the audience isn't completely gone, it is most certainly not what it was, either. Nostalgia can only take one so far, after all.