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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahcake View Post
    Did you even watch the whole video? It's not just microtransactions but the dungeon finder, raid finder, tokens etc. It's pathetic they even added level boost to an old version of the game. So sad.

    Retail is just a massive cash grab now with expansions that have less and less content each year.
    If there were no dungeon finders, this game wouldn't have stayed so popular so many years. Finders are a blessing you simply can not comprehend.

  2. #242
    Damn, this video hits a little too close to home for comfort.
    Pretty good anyway, and capture beautifully the feelings and spirit of the situation.

  3. #243
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    The issue, that is poorly represented, is that LFG + Xrealm is the issue not LFG, if you get matched with people from the same server is no biggy

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    The fact that blizzard isnt givin the # sub since decades and the MUA fetish, is pretty self explainatory.
    With how the gaming industry have changed, it is indeed self explainatory. Is that what you meant, or are you saying it's somehow "evidence" of shit going worse? They're making more money off the game than before, so it only makes sense to talk about what actually matters, which isn't sub numbers. Or?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurathansal View Post
    You haven't played since Vanilla have you?

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    The response in this thread pretty much splits the players who have played for 5-7 years or less, from the ones who play this game since it began or nearly.

    I started playing in early 2005, and the video pretty much nails it for me. It is not ranting at all, If a lot of people like the way the game is today, this is fine! But the game hit 10 Million players globally with the old ways of simply being a fantastic MMORPG, and that was the way many of us who are still around preferred it to be.

    You like your M+, your teleport to dungeon, your store mounts, wow tokens, and especially the borrowed power systems, legendaries etc? Cool, good for you! But there is a much bigger player base than the current one that disappeared over the years because WoW changed so much, and to the worse in most of these people's opinion. I am included in this group.

    Respect everyone's opinion though.
    That's speculation, but the way you've phrased your post makes it seem as if you're saying it's a fact. There's absolutely no way for you to know this, since people who are on forums, fansites, reddit, youtube, twitch etc are a tiny minority of the playerbase; always has been. So, if this somehow isn't speculation; how on earth can you come to such a conclusion?
    Hi

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    Oh well, 12 years later and people are still whining about dungeon finder... because spamming trade for X time to form a group was such a game enhancing experience... muh community and all.
    It kind of was. It forced you to interact with people and because of the time it took it also often made people be more tolerant towards others that were not so good and even help them to get better along the run so they can keep going instead of having to find a new one. I had many such occasions in tbc when I started playing. The lfg creates a gogogogo mentality where everyone is easily replaceable at any point and gives room to a lot more toxicity while removing any form of interaction.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    With how the gaming industry have changed, it is indeed self explainatory. Is that what you meant, or are you saying it's somehow "evidence" of shit going worse? They're making more money off the game than before, so it only makes sense to talk about what actually matters, which isn't sub numbers. Or?

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    That's speculation, but the way you've phrased your post makes it seem as if you're saying it's a fact. There's absolutely no way for you to know this, since people who are on forums, fansites, reddit, youtube, twitch etc are a tiny minority of the playerbase; always has been. So, if this somehow isn't speculation; how on earth can you come to such a conclusion?
    I get what you are saying! I really respect what you mean. But I firmly believe in the statement purely because older versions of the game were played by a far greater number of people who play the current one. That alone tells me people preferred the way the game was, and I can back that by the hype and player numbers generated by WoW Classic, number of twitch views, etc.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    It kind of was. It forced you to interact with people and because of the time it took it also often made people be more tolerant towards others that were not so good and even help them to get better along the run so they can keep going instead of having to find a new one. I had many such occasions in tbc when I started playing. The lfg creates a gogogogo mentality where everyone is easily replaceable at any point and gives room to a lot more toxicity while removing any form of interaction.
    I’ve seen no proof of it improving community.

    - Jumped into an H Shattered, Druid mispulled one pack, the group disbanded.
    - As a DPS, groups fill quickly, most whispers go in-responded to.
    - People calling out behavior (eg ninja’ing primals) either get ridiculed or ignored

    People claim it’s harder to shake a reputation, but can’t you force a name change by just deleting your character, making a new lvl 1 with that name, and restoring the deleted one? A trade scammer on my server had a new name every week, this was just a guess at how.

    I think Dungeon Finder removing agency of building the group is a massive downside - I wouldn’t use it. But I don’t think spamming /4 builds community or anything.

  7. #247
    That's a great video. It hits the spot because it so effectively illustrates the journey that World of Warcraft has had up to this point.

  8. #248
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurathansal View Post
    I get what you are saying! I really respect what you mean. But I firmly believe in the statement purely because older versions of the game were played by a far greater number of people who play the current one. That alone tells me people preferred the way the game was, and I can back that by the hype and player numbers generated by WoW Classic, number of twitch views, etc.
    It very well could be, of course. But let's not completely forget that back in the days, WoW was one of those very few games where you could easily play with your friends and connect with your friends. We didn't have the same tools as we do to today to communicate and play with our friends. I'd think that if the gaming industry didn't become so much more social and easily accessible, WoW wouldn't have seen the same decline. Let's also not forget that the rapid growth WoW saw ended when Wrath came, which is what is considered the best expansion.

    The amount of 'hype' and popularity of classic / classic tbc is nowhere near what it was back in the day either, wouldn't it be if the game was that good back then? Probably not, since the gaming industry and also the community and players in general has changed. Today I can pay 10-20€ per month and get access to hundreds of games, and in many of those games I can play with my friends easily.

    I actually think WoW has done really, really well considering how things has changed with the industry as a whole.

    Personally I absolutely loved the game in vanilla, tbc and wrath - more so than I do now, but that's only because of the community back then. I find the game to be far better now, but the toxicity of the gaming community (in general, not just wow) has just made the community declined oh so much.

    Classic is also pretty much dead, as most of those people have moved on to classic TBC, which I also feel says something here. If anything the decline is probably due to a mix of our opinions, I suppose.
    Hi

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    The issue, that is poorly represented, is that LFG + Xrealm is the issue not LFG, if you get matched with people from the same server is no biggy
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    It kind of was. It forced you to interact with people and because of the time it took it also often made people be more tolerant towards others that were not so good and even help them to get better along the run so they can keep going instead of having to find a new one. I had many such occasions in tbc when I started playing. The lfg creates a gogogogo mentality where everyone is easily replaceable at any point and gives room to a lot more toxicity while removing any form of interaction.
    But you know that this problem is WoW community itself, not the tool right?
    Other games for some reason can work perfectly fine with a cross-server party finder tool, just in WoW it goes bonkers with the gogogog and fail=kick mentality you mentioned.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    It kind of was. It forced you to interact with people and because of the time it took it also often made people be more tolerant towards others that were not so good and even help them to get better along the run so they can keep going instead of having to find a new one. I had many such occasions in tbc when I started playing. The lfg creates a gogogogo mentality where everyone is easily replaceable at any point and gives room to a lot more toxicity while removing any form of interaction.
    Well, you have the exact same system now with M+, but on the other hand the players that care about their performance and respect the time of their fellow gamer now have much better tools and knowledge to filter out the toxic entitled players that just want a carry.

    So the game is much less toxic now than it was before, but not for the toxic entitled as they now are much more likely to play with players like themselves. Justice...

  11. #251
    It should have ended with the guy opening up and logging into FFXIV

  12. #252
    Well this video is a perfect example of the mindset of a toxic entitled person:

    He simply can't accept that other people can/will play the game in another way than he does and instead of finding like-minded people to play with and ignore what/who he doesn't like he tries to guilt-shame other people to go on his bandwagon.
    He should do like the min/maxers are doing: Finding people like themselves and only play with them and not giving a flying fuck about how others play the game.

    This is a video where a grown man, I assume, is crying like a 5-year old who has no agency over his own life. Pathetic.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    I think a guy like him who's done really close collaboration with Blizzard would think twice before jumping on a hatewagon that could damage his business.
    lol if asmon who is by far the nr 1 advert for blizz can make huge hate rants,im sure a nobody rando artist can make a small amateur lowkey cartoon no prob

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    lol if asmon who is by far the nr 1 advert for blizz can make huge hate rants,im sure a nobody rando artist can make a small amateur lowkey cartoon no prob
    Blizzard never acknowledges asmon though and he has said the same thing himself.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahcake View Post
    I'll have to keep repeating myself.

    Sure, whenever someone has a different opinion about something, it's just because it's popular, views, likes etc. It's not because maaaaybeee he's just passionate about the game and dislikes those things. Nah, that can't be it. /s

    That "skip to the ending" part wasn't part of the level boost by the way. It was a separate thing in the video and a little bit of exaggeration. It was supposed to summarize all these boosts, "free" mounts, simplifications under this banner (or stand, as it is in the video). These things help you skip HUGE parts of the game (grinding/farming for mount, leveling, etc.) and "boosts" you NEARLY to the end, so in it's own way, it can be described as a skip to the ending.

    But some people are oversensitive over any criticism towards their Blizzard gods and can't handle different opinions
    I cant actualy bring myself to retort someone using that avatar,I am automaticaly checkmated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Blizzard never acknowledges asmon though and he has said the same thing himself.
    ofc not,90% of what he sais is negative,but whenever he makes something ingame there are legions of players swarming,his views are also more than the other wowstreamers combined,its obvious his rabbid fanbase makes up atleast half the wow subs

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    Other games for some reason can work perfectly fine with a cross-server party finder tool.
    I find it odd, other MMO developers also point out that cross realm / dungeon finder can be very dangerous because it allows people to be assholes.

    https://youtu.be/b2l2ZxNhCSg?t=2970

    It's some insight from an MMO developer on lone player(s), who usually avoid grouping up and stay more solo.
    The question obviously concerns dungeon finder and the answer is frankly pretty mixed because he straight up says that those features can enable pretty degenerate behavior because people can be assholes towards others without repercussions.

    If developers from other games also note this, i doubt that this somehow unique to WoW, outside of being the biggest case study on the subject due to being the largest MMO, whereas a lot of others are simply more niche.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-21 at 12:05 PM.

  17. #257
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    While there's certainly a very subjective element at the core of the critique ("my friends moved on from the game/we're older now/etc.") you can't really discount the systemic element otherwise these videos and "critiques" wouldn't be as numerous as they are. It's not just that some people have grown out of the game because they have less time now, it's also about desolate and empty server communities that have been dying a slow death since MoP (and haven't managed to return even when big launches brought in a lot of returning players). If you don't play on one of the biggest servers, this feeling portrayed in the video is very real and immediate. I also don't think the cash shop is the reason for WoW's decline but it clearly coincides with it. It's a symptom of the game bleeding players (i.e. revenue).

    What I think is more important are the declining RPG and social elements and the feeling of actually being part of a simulated world that has been lost over the years. It's the context which made people want to waste their lives in this world to begin with. To me, it's just very hard to believe that people with years of /played time invested in this world would merely quit because they're older now.
    I discount it, I just think that it's less of a cause than it is a symptom of the game's very age - said age being the truer cause for why it can feel a bit desolate. In terms of video games, WoW is extremely old - its graphics and engine are very dated, and while great strides have been made to keep it relevant there will always be the clunkiness of a 17-year old piece of software trying to keep up with the Jones. So not only have its veterans, which I argue are the core of its stable population, largely departed slowly but surely as a product of growing older and just moving on - the game itself is ancient and lacks a lot of the flashy draw of newer RPG and MMO's with better graphics, refined systems, and innovations gleaned from WoW's own many successes and failures.

    So instead of pinning "the failure of WoW" on a single thing like microtransactions, or boosting, or whatever I think the real issue is just the aggregate of age and understandable obsolescence. Nothing lives forever, and for everything there's a season, as the old proverb goes.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    So instead of pinning "the failure of WoW" on a single thing like microtransactions, or boosting, or whatever I think the real issue is just the aggregate of age and understandable obsolescence. Nothing lives forever, and for everything there's a season, as the old proverb goes.
    I dislike this notion, while not untrue, because it in my downplays the mistakes Blizzard has made over the years and especially in the context Classic / TBC, the arrogance of certain Blizzard employees (now President) certainly added fuel to that fire.

    The way i see it, the success of Classic (and by extension TBC) is to some extent a rejection of how Blizzard has designed the game for the past decade, how they've thrown any sort of "blockade" under the bus for the sake accessability and frankly stripped the game of RPG elements because a given portion of the playerbase didn't like it (or rather, an audience they hoped to gain).
    Blizzard essentially pretended that people who preferred that "Old school" style are some tiny, forgotten minority, largely fueled by nostalgia for the "good old days".
    Now, it's actually been shown that group wasn't so tiny, that people actually left the game because they didn't like the direction, people that now returned to the game.

    Of course, age is a factor, no needs to pretend that WoW still would have a gazillions subs if Blizzard hadn't done X, but when a company that blatanty rejects the viewpoint of a portion of their playerbase, only then having to concede multiple times that the thing they've rejected for years is actually pretty successful, they don't get to play the "oh well, the game is pretty old, too!" card.

    One cannot control age, but one has control over the decisions they make - and Blizzard made some bad ones.

  19. #259
    first few pages of topic is too much KEKW of b. apologists who are getting aggressive towards persons opinions and feelings

    pretty much sums up who still plays wow and why people leave

    and even funnier they are calling others toxic

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I dislike this notion, while not untrue, because it in my downplays the mistakes Blizzard has made over the years and especially in the context Classic / TBC, the arrogance of certain Blizzard employees (now President) certainly added fuel to that fire.

    The way i see it, the success of Classic (and by extension TBC) is to some extent a rejection of how Blizzard has designed the game for the past decade, how they've thrown any sort of "blockade" under the bus for the sake accessability and frankly stripped the game of RPG elements because a given portion of the playerbase didn't like it (or rather, an audience they hoped to gain).
    Blizzard essentially pretended that people who preferred that "Old school" style are some tiny, forgotten minority, largely fueled by nostalgia for the "good old days".
    Now, it's actually been shown that group wasn't so tiny, that people actually left the game because they didn't like the direction, people that now returned to the game.

    Of course, age is a factor, no needs to pretend that WoW still would have a gazillions subs if Blizzard hadn't done X, but when a company that blatanty rejects the viewpoint of a portion of their playerbase, only then having to concede multiple times that the thing they've rejected for years is actually pretty successful, they don't get to play the "oh well, the game is pretty old, too!" card.

    One cannot control age, but one has control over the decisions they make - and Blizzard made some bad ones.
    wile i would say the decline of retail is due to a thausands cuts over time,the popularity of classic is due in great part for nostalgia and simply because its different

    but for me personaly both versions have become boring,so for some there is 100% the reason of ''nothing lives forever''

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