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  1. #381
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Ok - I'll only say it once in this thread:

    It devalues character progression.



    The "value" of "character progression" is purely subjective.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  2. #382
    Pit Lord Sluvs's Avatar
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    Not going to lie, it hit me in the feels, and it hits hard. Mainly the people and friends drifting apart and the game losing itself.

    But it lost me when it mentioned microtransactions. The shop in WoW is laughbly small and meaningless. What, a few mounts, services and a boost?

    The game has bigger problems than the freaking shop. But I suppose it is easy to get angry about this.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  3. #383
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trbn View Post
    I can read
    I was asking why did you decide anybody intrested in your story?
    You were interested enough to ask him about it.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanegasi View Post
    Love those figures. I can play that game too. 10% hate mtx, 30% buys everything, 60% don't care and/or buy some.
    you can. after having put years and years of research into WoW.

  5. #385
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan2 View Post
    you can. after having put years and years of research into WoW.
    Are you trying to say you put years of research into why people quit wow?
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  6. #386
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan2 View Post
    you can. after having put years and years of research into WoW.
    Really, have you got a PHD in wow quitting?
    I can tell you my job is LITERALLY to research wow, and even then, i can tell you that you are full of shit.
    But hey its only my job to do research, can you show me your "credentials"

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    Not going to lie, it hit me in the feels, and it hits hard. Mainly the people and friends drifting apart and the game losing itself.

    But it lost me when it mentioned microtransactions. The shop in WoW is laughbly small and meaningless. What, a few mounts, services and a boost?

    The game has bigger problems than the freaking shop. But I suppose it is easy to get angry about this.
    Friends losing interest in the game and drifting apart is I think something everyone who's played WoW experiences.

    But I would say everything he uses in the video for "examples" is just basically equivalent to buzzwords. Most people I know that lose interest are either just

    A) Bored
    B) Mad about class balance
    C) Dislike a mechanic of the game (Covenants/Heart of Azeroth as examples)

    Which I think is more than fair honestly to be critical of. I myself think it's a bit silly how gentle Blizzard is when it comes to class balancing because of the sake of stuff like high end gameplay. Not every class is going to be completely balanced, but there are times that there's extreme outliners who deserve some tuning yet they rarely will unless it's a nerf.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Friends losing interest in the game and drifting apart is I think something everyone who's played WoW experiences.

    But I would say everything he uses in the video for "examples" is just basically equivalent to buzzwords. Most people I know that lose interest are either just

    A) Bored
    B) Mad about class balance
    C) Dislike a mechanic of the game (Covenants/Heart of Azeroth as examples)

    Which I think is more than fair honestly to be critical of. I myself think it's a bit silly how gentle Blizzard is when it comes to class balancing because of the sake of stuff like high end gameplay. Not every class is going to be completely balanced, but there are times that there's extreme outliners who deserve some tuning yet they rarely will unless it's a nerf.
    Im always surprised by the number of people who try to claim that "specific reason X" is why "everyone" left the game. It was flying, no, it was arena, no, it was lfr, no it was lfd, no it was m+, no it was mythic raiding.

    Reality is there are varied and individual reasons why people stop playing wow, and I suspect for a good portion of players, it has little to do with the game itself, but rather lifestyle changes - kids, family, work, school, whatever. For those whom it is game related, i think A and C are the most common - many people just stop enjoying the game and stop playing, without ever bothering to try and discover WHY they stopped enjoying it.

    I played the shit out of the RE2 remake, and only played through RE3 remake a couple of times. I never bothered to ask "gee, i wonder WHY i dont like 3 as much, i wonder what specific thing i dont like?" I just literally didn't play it again. I suspect many are the same with wow - they stop enjoying it, so they stop playing - its really that simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sites have their own audiences with their own specialized opinion makers.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Interesting to a content creator that has actually worked that closely with Blizzard to the point where his artstyle has been in official games to be that critical towards them.
    I mean it's a very honest take. With Classic Blizzard did really well with the community (yes, streamers are part of community in todays gaming environment) and doing AMAs/chatting heaps about their design decisions. Inviting streamers to trial & having momentum behind announcing a launch date. With TBC they've done none of that at all, there was very little pre-announcement hype, the timeframe was very short and they introduced non-classic items if you wanted to pay for them probably because the suits said "we need to make more money off this" and they took steps that are controversial.

    The comments dismissing/marginalising people whom consider vanity paid items or paid boosting/buying gold are disappointing although commonplace and generally unmoderated on mmo-champ. Some people love vanity items and buying pets/mounts etc and that's ok. Some people loathe the same and feel it detracts from their playing of the game and that's ok too. Both attitudes/opinions are valid with sound logical & emotional arguments to support those positions.

    Its not surprising to see those who enjoy classic and prefer more purist elements to be upset/disappointed with how the corporate arm of Blizzard is letting $$$ get in the way of a purely gaming experience. This video captures the sentiment well and those in Blizzard who are more about the game than the $$ likely empathise/agree with the sentiment. Not ALL of Blizzard is seeking optimal ROI/best qtr yet type outcomes. Some of them just love games.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Can you post the source that shows the amount of classic players and the amount of retail players? Haven't seen that. I assume you mean classic tbc though, Im sure classic is a ghost town now.
    No it isnt.

    We assume the data from the FF14 beating WoW article, we can trust these numbers or not but in the latter case so i should not trust any "ehhh classic is a ghost town" when Twitch WoW channel is 90% TBC content.

    Btw https://mmo-population.com/activity

    PRECOG "It's difficult to track hidden MMO subscriber numbers, but we do our best," SO TAKE IT AS A GRAIN OF SALT



    So Classic/TBC is 1.70 milion and Retail is 2.19 -- assuming these data are realistic -- Classic/TBC has 77% of the Retail POP


    If you click each MMO you can clearly see:

    1. When SL launched and how the draught impacted

    2. When TBC Pre patch launched

    3. No idea about FF14


    ------------------------------------------

    People are also getting this survey



    I mean this must tell us that Blizzard acknowledge there is a problem.
    Last edited by TBCCLOL; 2021-06-22 at 08:58 AM.

  11. #391
    I've seen people drift away from the game pretty much since I started playing, in late vanilla.

    So whilst it's sad I've pretty much always seen this happen. My first guild collapsed in TBC as so many drifted away. There hasn't been a single expansion where I've not seen some people go. Some people came back, others didn't.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Carbot joining the rtard hate train for wow, not surprising since it makes money, but pretty fucking sad, I'll stop watching his stuff for sure now. He has some points, but almost all the shit he pointed out as "bad" are things people literally begged and whined and petitioned for till they got (and they did make the game better).

    The game changed, sure but more so most of us changed, we lost the free time we had, grew new interests, found love and jobs, and with the plethora of games dropped near daily its hard to justify playing only wow and never taking a break. Much like the wretched haters that refuse to leave these boards and find happiness, carbot needs to realize that its fine to move on with sticking around and bitching like some bitter ex.
    the game got worse. Period lol

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    An official version doesn't exist, though
    Up to mid WoD, one exists with three months intervals, so the gaps aren't even that huge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    as Blizzard no longer releases exact population figures for WoW post-WoD. I have however reviewed a number of these predictive models, and they all pretty much echo the same downward trend as previously illustrated.
    You are free to resort to those when an official no longer exists, my point however does not concern that timeframe, i point out that
    1.An official model exists that does not show these expansion launch spikes / drops until WoD
    2.Even the spikes in unofficial models pre WoD are not compareable with the ones post WoD

    I really do not understand why one needs to debate this, spikes of that magnitude did not occur until WoD (or at all) and humoring that "this how WoW always has been" is just not supported by official data.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would say that's your own read into what I said, and your own cross to bear, as it were.
    When you write "it's nostalgia fueled" and i understand " it's nostalgia fueled", then i fail to see what is "my own read".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-22 at 09:43 AM.

  14. #394
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is a huge fallacy - we know what covenants people chose, that is true. What you claim to know, but do NOT know, is WHY people chose the covenant they chose. You are making a wild assumption that it was purely a power based decision, rather than aesthetic/cosmetic, thematic, or enjoyment of the abilities.
    There's nothing fallacious about it. We know what class/covenant combinations currently exist for PvP and PvE. We know what the most powerful class/covenant combinations are. We know what covenants are most flexible between multiple class specs. Assuming that people made decisions that lined up with optimal combinations provided by guides given the covenant popularity is reasonable. Assuming that they instead just coincidentally made decisions that just happened to line up in numbers significant enough to drive certain covenants to being the majority is not reasonable.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Really, have you got a PHD in wow quitting?
    I can tell you my job is LITERALLY to research wow, and even then, i can tell you that you are full of shit.
    But hey its only my job to do research, can you show me your "credentials"
    I mean, I actually do kind of have a PHD in WoW. Thing is though, EVEN IF I know what the majority of WoW players wants, you are still entitled to have your own opinion that goes against the current. That's why I said earlier that there are no facts in game design. In game design, all you have are a number of different opinions that X amount of people have. There is one opinion A that the majority of players have (where X is the highest). To find the opinion that most players have you gotta read an exorbitant amount of WoW community posts and complaints. the more time you spend on it the more educated your guess will be and the more likely it is that you know what that opinion A is. But just because A is what most players want, that doesn't mean that it's a fact. It's simply an opinion that Blizzard should follow if they want to maximize their income and make the most amount of players happy.

    Now that we got that out of the way, there is still no way for me to conclusively prove that I know what that opinion A is. the only way to find out whether opinion A is indeed the one most players have is to follow opinion A, implement it into the game and then look at the subscription numbers over the following 10 years. if they remove mtx today and the (retail) sub count goes up to 10-12 mio over the next few years, then we'll know that mtx in mmos are indeed not ideal.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    I mean this must tell us that Blizzard acknowledge there is a problem.
    I like your reply and that there’s at least some research to look at. I just wanted to say, to this point, that competition analysis is very normal. We do it for our brand against our closest competitors, which are about 18% market share behind us.

    I don’t want to detract from your point, or say that FFXIV isn’t a threat; just that the survey itself is standard practice and helps set a baseline for strategic planning.

    WoW should be worried about FFXIV’s continued momentum. They get right a lot of the things WoW gets wrong.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    What do you call someone who sees millions of people purchasing a product and considers themselves, by not purchasing the product, more righteous or intelligent?

    Here’s a twist: I enjoy the game and spend my money where I feel it’s worthwhile. When I don’t enjoy the game, I don’t play. When I don’t want a service or item, I don’t buy it.

    Stop pretending people who buy the products are all some derelicts or sheep, especially if you’re going to go around calling people naive, lmao.
    You repeatedly missed the point ppl are trying to tell you.

    If you buy a specific product, especially if a lot of people buy it, it tells the seller that people want these things, so what’s he gonna do? Make more of that product and come up with new types of that product, make it more appealing, make new ways how to sell that product more. One of those ways is to make the game and the items less fun or appealing.

    Nobody is telling you that you’re “sheep or derelict”, but you’re supporting this system that’s really not gamer friendly. If it was, you would be able to get those things inside the game and not just via real money. Same thing with the boost, they would make the leveling better and more enjoyable.

    If people are buying these things, Blizzard never has to make the game better or future games more appealing, so in the end, you’re “injuring” (as you said before) yourself (because you play this game) and the game. Period.
    Last edited by Mahcake; 2021-06-22 at 11:03 AM.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahcake View Post
    You repeatedly missed the point ppl are trying to tell you.

    If you buy a specific product, especially if a lot of people buy it, it tells the seller that people want these things, so what’s he gonna do? Make more of that product and come up with new types of that product, make it more appealing, make new ways how to sell that product more. One of those ways is to make the game and the items less fun or appealing.

    Nobody is telling you that you’re “sheep or derelict”, but you’re supporting this system that’s really not gamer friendly. If it was, you would be able to get those things inside the game and not just via real money. Same thing with the boost, they would make the leveling better and more enjoyable.

    If people are buying these things, Blizzard never has to make the game better or future games more appealing, so in the end, you’re “injuring” (as you said before) yourself (because you play this game) and the game. Period.
    It's very friendly too me on the retail side of things I have multiboxed for quite awhile and basically thanks to the token everything is free.

    And on the classic side there was a 0% chance I would play tbc without a boost as classic leveling is a cess pit of "press w" for 50 hours.

    Blizzard is making more profits > means people are buying the products > means maybe just maybe people want these things in game.

    If no one was buying them they wouldn't be there or wouldn't be added on too I guess.

    Microtransactions are one of the best things to happen to gaming. I'm a working adult with disposable income, maybe if I was broke stuck in a basement all day I'd be upset too.
    Last edited by Caerrona; 2021-06-22 at 11:17 AM.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    It's very friendly too me on the retail side of things I have multiboxed for quite awhile and basically thanks to the token everything is free.

    And on the classic side there was a 0% chance I would play tbc without a boost as classic leveling is a cess pit of "press w" for 50 hours.

    Blizzard is making more profits > means people are buying the products > means maybe just maybe people want these things in game.

    If no one was buying them they wouldn't be there or wouldn't be added on too I guess.

    Microtransactions are one of the best things to happen to gaming. I'm a working adult with disposable income, maybe if I was broke stuck in a basement all day I'd be upset too.
    As a working adult with disposable income myself I never thought I d live to see the day where someone would openly say this. But then again you are a multiboxing cancer so your opinion hardly counts or reflects that of the average player.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    It's easy to lampoon Blizzard as Carbot has shown. Just as every WoW content creator has shown. As everybody will continue to show over and over.


    Yes... yes... Blizzard and WoW bad now.
    Its easy to force people to play through Vanilla to get to TBC.. When you liked Vanilla.

    People forget that just because you want to replay TBC it doesnt mean you want to play through Vanilla.

    "But thats how it was back then, you play through one to play through the next"

    Yes but it isn't back then.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-06-22 at 11:38 AM.
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