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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Well this video is a perfect example of the mindset of a toxic entitled person:

    He simply can't accept that other people can/will play the game in another way than he does and instead of finding like-minded people to play with and ignore what/who he doesn't like he tries to guilt-shame other people to go on his bandwagon.
    He should do like the min/maxers are doing: Finding people like themselves and only play with them and not giving a flying fuck about how others play the game.

    This is a video where a grown man, I assume, is crying like a 5-year old who has no agency over his own life. Pathetic.
    This is total nonsense. Like the guy/girl who created the video, I find myself in a similar situation, I have seenthe game changing and I tried to adapt to many of the changes introduced. However, when you change things so deeply over the years, you will always inevitably lose people and gain new people due to the age of the people playing the game, and also because the game isn't what it used to be. This is OK, as people who started playing more recently will probably say the game is fine and disagree with "older" guys who preferred the old version of the game.

    What the author of the video really is hinting at, is that he has nobody else to play with due to the way the game is nowadays. Which is exactly how a lot of us feel. Even If the game changed so much, If I still had a lot of my friends playing it I would also still play it, but the reality is, nobody but myself was playing it before I quit.

    I hope it makes sense?

  2. #262
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    lol if asmon who is by far the nr 1 advert for blizz can make huge hate rants,im sure a nobody rando artist can make a small amateur lowkey cartoon no prob
    But Carbot has had his artwork featured IN GAME (Heroes of the Storm). That is a lot different than a streamer doing his thing without officially being endorsed by the company. The best you could go for is that Asmon was in that panel in Blizzcon 2017.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I discount it, I just think that it's less of a cause than it is a symptom of the game's very age - said age being the truer cause for why it can feel a bit desolate. In terms of video games, WoW is extremely old - its graphics and engine are very dated, and while great strides have been made to keep it relevant there will always be the clunkiness of a 17-year old piece of software trying to keep up with the Jones. So not only have its veterans, which I argue are the core of its stable population, largely departed slowly but surely as a product of growing older and just moving on - the game itself is ancient and lacks a lot of the flashy draw of newer RPG and MMO's with better graphics, refined systems, and innovations gleaned from WoW's own many successes and failures.

    So instead of pinning "the failure of WoW" on a single thing like microtransactions, or boosting, or whatever I think the real issue is just the aggregate of age and understandable obsolescence. Nothing lives forever, and for everything there's a season, as the old proverb goes.
    I disagree. People still play (old school) Runescape. There's a reason why the launch of Classic doubled WoW's subscriptions at the time. The age of a game doesn't really dictate whether people will be able to enjoy it. If any other game that lost a previously stable hardcore loyal audience like WoW had in a similarly short time period, it would be seen as a massive failure in design and people would start analysing what decisions from the company lead to this. It's only with WoW that people play this game where we hold the players (or literally anything else) accountable for the downfall of a game only to not lay any blame on the actual people who are responsible for designing it. I mean, this is anecdotal but the friends I used to play WoW with didn't grow out of the MMORPG genre or suddenly discovered they had a real life. They left because they were increasingly upset with Blizzard's decisions and moved over to greener pastures. The age of the game has very little to do with this.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    People are playing on the modern client in Classic / TBC, it's mimicking the old client.
    yeah ofc its mimicking it,but its still the modern one,i would think diehard retro vanila fans would like the ehem ***authentic experience***

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    But Carbot has had his artwork featured IN GAME (Heroes of the Storm). That is a lot different than a streamer doing his thing without officially being endorsed by the company. The best you could go for is that Asmon was in that panel in Blizzcon 2017.
    you just a grumpy kat what u know >_<

  5. #265
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post

    you just a grumpy kat what u know >_<
    What does that mean?

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's not just the comparison with other MMO's, but also that the very MMO genre is itself a product of its time and place and also appears to have a quantifiable shelf-life as a marketable one.
    Yes, and?
    The point however is that other MMO's never had the same steam as WoW, which in my view, allowed to survive the bad decisions made by Blizzard later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I am not sure why you wouldn't credit such loyalty to Blizzard insofar as that goes, either? It is their creation this player base is loyal to, after all; a credit to the quality of the IP that it can garner and preserve said loyalty.
    Because i don't think other games would have gotten away with such lackluster expansions.

    You said it yourself, they built that loyalty, but that's the point where they started to lose it, they survived because of past victories, but not because they released a quality product.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Its persistence and the continued loyalty of its fans doesn't come from nothing, after all; it's not a trick of the light or sleight of hand.
    I think that is largely due to the initial success that WoW had and the emotional attachment people have developed to their characters over the years, not necesarily because they continued to release quality products.

    Let's be real, take a good look at the last 3 expansions
    WoD
    Legion
    BfA

    The only expansion that has a generally favorable conensus is Legion and that's largely because Blizzard threw the 2nd half of WoD into the bin and invested that into Legion, so that victory was gained with borrowed time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    While you are correct that the audience isn't completely gone, it is most certainly not what it was, either. Nostalgia can only take one so far, after all.
    The insinuation that Classic became a success solely due to nostalgia is just false, some people simply prefer that kind of game.
    Nostalgia doesn't make one play a game for nearly two years.

    Again, there are also a lot of people out there that don't play Classic / TBC simply because it features no new content and certain aspects haven't aged that well (such as encounter design).
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-21 at 01:40 PM.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    What does that mean?
    uhm...do you not see your own avatar

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurathansal View Post
    You haven't played since Vanilla have you?
    Played all throughout TBC, WOTLK, Cata, WoD, and Legion. Thanks for trying to attack my character instead of my argument, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurathansal View Post
    You like your M+, your teleport to dungeon, wow tokens, and especially the borrowed power systems, legendaries etc?
    The problem is, people aren't complaining about those

    People like Carbot are screeching and crying about a one-time boost and a vanity mount that has no impact on gameplay, claiming that these things "turn TBC into retail"

    they don't
    Last edited by anon5123; 2021-06-21 at 01:44 PM.

  9. #269
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I disagree. People still play (old school) Runescape. There's a reason why the launch of Classic doubled WoW's subscriptions at the time. The age of a game doesn't really dictate whether people will be able to enjoy it. If any other game that lost a previously stable hardcore loyal audience like WoW had in a similarly short time period, it would be seen as a massive failure in design and people would start analysing what decisions from the company lead to this. It's only with WoW that people play this game where we hold the players (or literally anything else) accountable for the downfall of a game only to not lay any blame on the actual people who are responsible for designing it. I mean, this is anecdotal but the friends I used to play WoW with didn't grow out of the MMORPG genre or suddenly discovered they had a real life. They left because they were increasingly upset with Blizzard's decisions and moved over to greener pastures. The age of the game has very little to do with this.
    I would say I pretty heartily disagree with most of the above, but again, speaking only from my subjective standpoint. Anecdotally, I know a lot of people who returned to WoW to experience Classic, played for a bit, and then fell off again after a time. Classic launched in 2019, when WoW was itself already 15 years old as an IP, a senior citizen when it comes to a modern video game. WoW has by then already experienced its dizzying heyday and settled into a slow but steady decline as an IP - I don't think anyone was really shocked at the trendline of WoW as Cata bled into WoD and then on into the later expansions. I mean if WoW had bled off half of its subscriber base all at once people would be worried, but that's not really in evidence here, it's more a series of crests and troughs with each receding a bit more each time, a clear if subtle arc of descent that would lend itself to something living along a predictable entropic curve.

    And like I said in my original post, my experience isn't going to be your experience or anyone else's - I can only relate my own experiences with the game, so I can't and won't speak to yours. I don't have any friends who used to play WoW that left because they were so upset with the game, or at least that wasn't their only rationale given. I would even go so far as to argue that a lot of people who make the claim are really just bored with the game or burnt out, which is definitely a factor I have seen. The flaws of a game become a lot more evident and glaring when you're not having fun with it, after all. I've experienced that one myself, and it was a reason I took something of an extended vacation from WoW in BFA - an expansion I didn't really enjoy for numerous reasons, and in said lack of enjoyment found even more jarring and annoying.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #270
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    uhm...do you not see your own avatar
    Yes but how is that an argument?

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Played all throughout TBC, WOTLK, Cata, WoD, and Legion. Thanks for trying to attack my character instead of my argument, though.


    The problem is, people aren't complaining about those

    People like Carbot are screeching and crying about a one-time boost and a vanity mount that has no impact on gameplay, claiming that these things "turn TBC into retail"

    they don't
    Pretty sure that was not the only thing in the video that was criticized. LFD was clearly depicted as a mechanical arm picking up random people and throwing them in a factory production line to go into the next dungeon. Also the "skip to the end" is obviously a hyperbole to make a statement. If people dont get that I dont know what to say.
    People are very much complaining about all of the above as well. It has just been so long that the vast majority of the people that complained about those systems have long left the game and they are not the hot center piece of the discussion anymore.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    they don't
    Of course they do. These things kill immersion. Whenever you see that thing and know it was obtained through real life money, it connects the fantasy world with the real world, thus breaks you from the game.

    Back in the day, when someone had something cool and unique like that, it was an indicator that player is good, skilled etc. You could actually see in the game just from their armor and things who they were. These kind of things motivated you to play more, get better and be better.

    I remember during WotLK, when I got my T10 set as a mage, there was this one guy who whisped me how great I look, how cool my items were and how much he wants them too. It’s these small things that really impact the whole game. That’s why I think transmog killed some of this too and I never liked that feature anywhere.

    Nowadays, that kind of motivation is gone because you can just swipe a card and get it for a few bucks. Of course, it’s optional but once it’s there, it will always hunt you during the game, forever.
    Last edited by Mahcake; 2021-06-21 at 02:07 PM.

  13. #273
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    I think a guy like him who's done really close collaboration with Blizzard would think twice before jumping on a hatewagon that could damage his business.
    Again. If you think this will damage his buisness, while blizz still work with people like asmongold and belluar, you are dull.
    If blizzard has yet to drop them, they won't be dropping Car bot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahcake View Post
    Of course they do. These things kill immersion. Whenever you see that thing and know it was obtained through real life money, it connects the fantasy world with the real world, thus breaks you from the game.
    Inb4 someone challenges the completely logical connection you are making as a human being of something in game being devalued because of the means of obtaining it and calls you a sweaty nerd for caring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Again. If you think this will damage his buisness, while blizz still work with people like asmongold and belluar, you are dull.
    If blizzard has yet to drop them, they won't be dropping Car bot.
    Blizz doesnt work with asmon though. When have they ever? And Bellular was infamous for being a blizzard shill forever

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    lol if asmon who is by far the nr 1 advert for blizz can make huge hate rants,im sure a nobody rando artist can make a small amateur lowkey cartoon no prob
    Carbot isn't a "nobody rando artist". He's worked on several huge projects with Blizzard. Lmao.
    Why am I back here, I don't even play these games anymore

    The problem with the internet is parallel to its greatest achievement: it has given the little man an outlet where he can be heard. Most of the time however, the little man is a little man because he is not worth hearing.

  16. #276
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yes, and?
    The point however is that other MMO's never had the same steam as WoW, which in my view, allowed to survive the bad decisions made by Blizzard later on.
    EverQuest had a lot of steam and a lot of popularity in its day - don't know what its player share was comparatively, but it too survived a lot of mistakes made by SOE and company.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because i don't think other games would have gotten away with such lackluster expansions.

    You said it yourself, they built that loyalty, but that's the point where they started to lose it, they survived because of past victories, but not because they released a quality product.

    I think that is largely due to the initial success that WoW had and the emotional attachment people have developed to their characters over the years, not necesarily because they continued to release quality products.

    Let's be real, take a good look at the last 3 expansions
    WoD
    Legion
    BfA

    The only expansion that has a generally favorable conensus is Legion and that's largely because Blizzard threw the 2nd half of WoD into the bin and invested that into Legion, so that victory was gained with borrowed time.
    Again, you're making a number of largely subjective arguments that, while they may be your experience, aren't necessarily shared or universal. I know a lot of people who enjoyed WoD (strange, I know), and even some people who liked BfA (there is no accounting for taste). I'd agree with you that of those last three expansions Legion is probably the standout, and my own experience is similar to yours. But I have noticed in myself a growing trend that the longer I play and the further a move away from what was WoW's heyday to me, the less staying power WoW has for me. And as I don't generally have a problem with the larger external factors of Blizzard's business decisions as concerns WoW, that fact underlines to me that age (of the IP and my own) is a salient factor all the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The insinuation that Classic became a success solely due to nostalgia is just false, some people simply prefer that kind of game.
    Nostalgia doesn't make one play a game for nearly two years.

    Again, there are also a lot of people out there that don't play Classic / TBC simply because it features no new content and certain aspects haven't aged that well (such as encounter design).
    Ah well, here I simply disagree with you outright. I view WoW Classic as pure and unadulterated nostalgia-fuel of the high octane variety. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, either; and more power to anyone who wants to relive the experience inasmuch as it can be relived. I also highly doubt WoW Classic is reeling in new players or relative MMO newbies by the score, I think the lion's share of its population are older players who experienced the original, or those who missed out on it by dint of starting WoW during WotLK or Cata, which I consider the second age of WoW whereas Classic and TBC were the first age.

    I personally don't play Classic or TBC because I've already done it, and I know that it's not going to be the same thing because I'm not the same person I was, and the environment around the experience is entirely different now. Again, that's not to say Classic or TBC Classic are a bad thing, just not really my thing.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Carbot isn't a "nobody rando artist". He's worked on several huge projects with Blizzard. Lmao.
    you re responding to the zoomer with the anime profile pic so yeah

  18. #278
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    It should have ended with the guy opening up and logging into FFXIV
    The woulda been fucking hilarious, cause every single complaint he has In the video is in ff14 but bigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    LFD
    Which is not in TBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Also the "skip to the end" is obviously a hyperbole to make a statement. If people dont get that I dont know what to say.
    "haha I was just exaggerating haha I didn't mean it haha you fell for it dummy"

    lmao

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    People are very much complaining about all of the above as well.
    But it's not in TBC.

  20. #280
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Blizzard never acknowledges asmon though and he has said the same thing himself.
    Asmon is a liar. Have you ever wondered how asmon seemingly ALWAYS gets alpha/beta access day 1 just like all the other content creators?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

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