This is World of Warcraft - Carbot new video

[Hellobolis]

I think it is a black and white thing, the ability to buy items that can give you a tangible advantage over other players makes a game pay to win.
The amount of people that engage in is irrelevant to me as long as it the practice does not break any ToS.

By your definition, a game where you can buy an item on the shop that one shots everyone is not pay to win because only a fraction buys it - which i could ensure by charging an insane price like 10k.
That way, only a fraction will surely buy it.

let me put it this way.

pre wow token i knew boosting, goldselling, etc existed. i maybe heard about it once or twice a month but it never affected my day to day gameplay experience. the worst that happened was once in a while a guildie couldn't make it to a raid cause his account mysteriously got hacked and drained of all gold.

post wow token i cannot avoid it even if i tried. most people in my guild and friendlist are in boost communities, all my guilds recruits come from a boost community, guild boosts on the side, etc. maybe i'm in a biased position being around so many boosters all the time, but honestly i if i went to a more casual guild i'd just end up around more of the boostees instead.

since you mentioned the wow token i guess you are of a similar mind. in absolute terms the game has always been pay2win, but it sure feels a loooooot more pay2win in the last 4 years than it has ever before.

[Trbn]

But to be honest, I don't really see what that has to do with me wondering why MAU is a worse metric then Sub nr's when talking about the MAU for WoW.

it's not worse, but you were never given mau for wow only
right now these metrics worth nothing for any person who isn't an accountant in b.

[Amorac]

but you were never given mau for wow only

Never said I did, so..

I said people are using the MAU for all Blizzard games as if it WoW only.

[Aucald]

Yes, and i pointed out that this wasn't the case.

At least based on official numbers going back to early WoD and predictive modeling once Blizzard ceased putting out firm numbers, it is the case. I think this chart illustrates the point:



And while the numbers post-WoD are unofficial estimations based on a number of sources, the trendline is pretty evident on its face. You can easily see expansion launch upticks, followed by predictable falloffs with a downward sloping trend. The official numbers' trendline and the estimated trendline fit pretty easily together. And while any number of factors could alter this trend, like a mega-successful expansion and/or a drastic overhaul of the game engine, the current trend is pretty stable.

I am sorry, but please consider your words when you write

At very least, give me an indicator that you are referring to a specific timeframe.

Since we already covered WoW's heyday, I figured my meaning was obvious. Spare me the condescension.

I'm fairly certain that when someone states that Classic is clear example of nostalgia pandering, without even acknowledging that there is an underlying to this type of game that people enjoy and appreciate, then i don't feel bad to call it a lack of differentiation.

But since you acknowledged now that there is more to Classic / TBC than nostalgia, i can live with that.

If I had ever used or even implied the term "pandering" then you'd a point here - as it is, that's not the case. I don't consider an offering being made to satisfy a legitimate and honest desire to be equivalent to pandering.

[Kralljin]

And while the numbers post-WoD are unofficial estimations based on a number of sources, the trendline is pretty evident on its face.

I think this is a key aspect, unofficial, when an official version actually exists, simply because you don't like the fact it doesn't support your point, you pull out one that barely even supports that.

The jumps in this graph pre WoD aren't even close to the ones post WoD.

Since we already covered WoW's heyday, I figured my meaning was obvious. Spare me the condescension.

When someone writes

I view WoW Classic as pure and unadulterated nostalgia-fuel of the high octane variety.

Then i naturally do not assume this person has a very balanced point of view and this frankly is equivalent to "Nostalgia pandering", except with more fluff.

[arkanon]

And I just remembered why I have you on ignore... god damn youre stupid..

Well, firstly you obviously DONT have me on ignore. Secondly, it is really straight forward. I have evidence that people would rather pay money and skip leveling: all the people who paid money to skip leveling. You have zero evidence that without the boost, they would still level from level 1 rather than stay on their old realm, stay on their old main, or not play at all.

People are outright telling you "the only reason I'm playing is because of the boost" but you are putting your fingers in your ears and screaming and pretending it isn't the case.

[Aucald]

I think this is a key aspect, unofficial, when an official version actually exists, simply because you don't like the fact it doesn't support your point, you pull out one that barely even supports that.

The jumps in this graph pre WoD aren't even close to the ones post WoD.

An official version doesn't exist, though; as Blizzard no longer releases exact population figures for WoW post-WoD. I have however reviewed a number of these predictive models, and they all pretty much echo the same downward trend as previously illustrated. A stable trend is a predictable trend, not a flat one - WoW's trend is downward as the product ages and its core demographic moves on. Even "doubling" WoW's current estimated population by aggregating WoW Classic doesn't bring you back to peak volume - nowhere near it, in fact.

Then i naturally do not assume this person has a very balanced point of view and this frankly is equivalent to "Nostalgia pandering", except with more fluff.

I would say that's your own read into what I said, and your own cross to bear, as it were. I stand by my original and expanded sentiment: "WoW Classic is a fine offering on its own, but the main reason it exists is due to the strong nostalgia factor among WoW veterans who wish to recapture that era in WoW's history." Nostalgia is the primary fuel for people's desire for the game, and the quality of the game is what keeps them playing despite the fact WoW Classic is a literal replica of a 17-year old game. Same reason I still sometimes play the 8-bit Legend of Zelda, which is a dinosaur of a game from an altogether different era of video games, but still a classic and a great game to boot.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Must be a Mythic raider only problem to be honest, or even only world first raiders. But yea, that's me assuming the opposite of what you are doing. My assumption; most people picked the covenant they liked best and stuck to it and did M+ dungeons/raiding fine.

You're assumption is false. Players overwhelmingly went with the meta covenant with no regard to "the covenant they liked best", typically either choosing the meta or the most flexible ability between multiple specs (i.e.: such as Night Fae for Mages).

Having a legendary is also more a high end player problem IMHO.

Not having a legendary when the barrier to entry on obtaining one is so low is, honestly, an instant disqualification from groups. The most performant legendaries are incredibly impactful and not having one is a demonstration that the player has not dedicated any time into their character. I would be shocked if anyone was able to get into groups without one and would suspect people without one would be kicked immediately if they were seen as not having one in a pug (or forced to grind Torghast if seen by their raid leader).

Imagine all the sub money those bots generate as well.. non argument I'd say.

I agree, Blizzard's poor bot management is likely not a means by which to inflate their MUA. Frankly, it's probably a mix of incompetence and the difficulty of the issue. Determining bot behavior from player behavior, especially as bots begin to use ML algorithms to mimic real users makes bot detection exponentially harder, which is compounded by the fact that many WoW players have the mentality of bots and will sit there casting Starfall on packs for hours on end, just like the bots do.

It's the same problem that so many on this forum seems to think everybody is a hardcore player and must be thinking the same. I know several people who log in every day for more hours then I do and just level a new char over and over and over again. I know a few who only log on to raid at the highest possible level when it was current not to be seen till next raid. I know some who log on for an hour, do the mission table and some quests and call it a day. So many different people who play the game in the way they like...

So, like I said, people usually don't pay for things they don't like to do. And most people are not first world raiders or high end M+ players.

What you're describing isn't a hardcore player problem, it's a casual player problem. Hardcore players, those who do high-end raiding, M+, and PvP, have a lot of content to do. While the content drought has been unacceptable, hardcore players use this extra time as preparation for the next tier (i.e.: gold farming, preparing/gearing alts for next tier if needed, etc.). In fact, a big complaint of many hardcore players is that there is too much for them to do in order to prepare for another tier in order to be competitive, typically because of unnecessary gating that simply exists to throttle progression of alts (and new players, kind of); however, in the situation you described of a player just raid logging or doing their mission tables and a couple world quests and calling it a day, this means that Blizzard is failing to incentivize play for them.

Besides, what is there to do at max level in Vanilla or TBC if you are not raiding? Or if you had all heroics dungeons gear? Farming Rep? Gold? Other then leveling an alt that is, that you can't help gear up with your main, unless you want to dump gold into BOE for the alt..

These aren't the same game and have different intended audiences. Retail WoW is best defined by convenience and has boiled down the experience to endgame progression. Outside of story and world quests there isn't that much to do if you're not a hardcore raider. In the world of a themepark MMO, this simply is not enough. Consider how games like ESO keep all previous content relevant by spreading out unique item sets (both drops and craftables) between zones (incl. delves), dungeons, trials (raid equivalent), and PvP. Comparing WoW to most MMOs, if you aren't doing hardcore (or progression) content, you're really just paying more for less given the lack of casual content.

TBC, on the other hand, is not an alt friendly experience and is not meant to be. There is a set path for gear progression which will likely be followed throughout the expansion and, due to loot scarcity, alts will likely need to wait some time before having gear from recent raids made available to them. The system is a little antiquated, but delayed gratification makes people feel more invested in their characters.

[arkanon]

You're assumption is false. Players overwhelmingly went with the meta covenant with no regard to "the covenant they liked best", typically either choosing the meta or the most flexible ability between multiple specs (i.e.: such as Night Fae for Mages).

This is a huge fallacy - we know what covenants people chose, that is true. What you claim to know, but do NOT know, is WHY people chose the covenant they chose. You are making a wild assumption that it was purely a power based decision, rather than aesthetic/cosmetic, thematic, or enjoyment of the abilities.

[Prag]

I finally used my boost. Guild’s been fighting to find a healer for 3 weeks. While I may have saved 4 weeks of leveling (6 hours/day, minus raid times for main), it definitely helped the economy. 1,500g dropped for Enchanting and Tailoring mats I wouldn’t have bought otherwise. And now I’m spamming dungeon pugs to level, which is a net positive for LFG.

So yeah, sorry to all the people who’ve been personally injured by my decision. The sellers of the old world mats and the randoms who don’t have to wait for a healer definitely didn’t lose.

[Agent Smith]

Here's what I do know for sure, this is now 19/20 pages long, obviously there's massive divide in the WoW community all possible by the silent treatment Blizzard has been giving people.

If you dont like the hate you give, stop acting in a way that makes A LOT of people hate you. Id get it if it were a small loud crowd, but arguably, more than 50% of people are displeased with WoW and im arbitrarily taking these numbers by adding the amount of UPDOOTS the media (video) has completely ignoring and hoping you could also ignore the fact that some of these people all roam around the same social circles but so its almost certain that the same people will also be updooting the media on other platforms as well and you wouldn't have even questioned it had I not said anything, yea, I know.

Anywho, point is, WoW sucks rn, those of us nay sayers dont want it to die, we want it to be better.

[Trbn]

I finally used my boost. Guild’s been fighting to find a healer for 3 weeks. While I may have saved 4 weeks of leveling (6 hours/day, minus raid times for main), it definitely helped the economy. 1,500g dropped for Enchanting and Tailoring mats I wouldn’t have bought otherwise. And now I’m spamming dungeon pugs to level, which is a net positive for LFG.

So yeah, sorry to all the people who’ve been personally injured by my decision. The sellers of the old world mats and the randoms who don’t have to wait for a healer definitely didn’t lose.

what's the point of your message?

[Kanegasi]

well the traction this video got means Blizzard can go back to the no mtx days for retail. 50% are indifferent whether there are mtx and 50% are against mtx. let's go back to 12 million subs. sounds good to me.

Love those figures. I can play that game too. 10% hate mtx, 30% buys everything, 60% don't care and/or buy some.

[Mahcake]

I finally used my boost. Guild’s been fighting to find a healer for 3 weeks. While I may have saved 4 weeks of leveling (6 hours/day, minus raid times for main), it definitely helped the economy. 1,500g dropped for Enchanting and Tailoring mats I wouldn’t have bought otherwise. And now I’m spamming dungeon pugs to level, which is a net positive for LFG.

So yeah, sorry to all the people who’ve been personally injured by my decision. The sellers of the old world mats and the randoms who don’t have to wait for a healer definitely didn’t lose.

Grats for supporting bad practices and contributing to having more and more mtxs in the future. And not just in this game but future Blizz games.

In the end, you didn’t injure “us” but yourself and the game.

Have a cookie.

[Prag]

what's the point of your message?

That I used the boost, nobody died, and it benefited more people directly than it harmed.

[arkanon]

what's the point of your message?

Its quite clear that they are putting forward an honest opinion on the net positive outcome for them boosting a toon. They benefit by saving, in their words, 4 weeks. Their guild benefits, because they gain a healer. The economy benefits, by driving up demand for leveling mats. And the community as a whole benefited by having another healer in the pool for TBC leveling content and dungeons.

To be honest, it was all outlined quite clearly, and the only reason someone wouldn't see this is because they were desperately trying not to.

[Amorac]

You're assumption is false. Players overwhelmingly went with the meta covenant with no regard to "the covenant they liked best", typically either choosing the meta or the most flexible ability between multiple specs (i.e.: such as Night Fae for Mages).

I stand corrected, thanks. Haven't read it yet, but guess they are scraping the armory and not using an addon to collect?

Not having a legendary when the barrier to entry on obtaining one is so low is, honestly, an instant disqualification from groups. The most performant legendaries are incredibly impactful and not having one is a demonstration that the player has not dedicated any time into their character. I would be shocked if anyone was able to get into groups without one and would suspect people without one would be kicked immediately if they were seen as not having one in a pug (or forced to grind Torghast if seen by their raid leader).

But getting a 'low' level legendary is not that hard, crafting wise anyway.

Getting it to drop, that might be an issue but well, getting any BIS item to drop is, and that never been different. So arguing that Blizzard is using it to buff MAU Nr's is arguing they used the same method to buff Sub nr's back in the day.

I agree, Blizzard's poor bot management is likely not a means by which to inflate their MUA. Frankly, it's probably a mix of incompetence and the difficulty of the issue. Determining bot behavior from player behavior, especially as bots begin to use ML algorithms to mimic real users makes bot detection exponentially harder, which is compounded by the fact that many WoW players have the mentality of bots and will sit there casting Starfall on packs for hours on end, just like the bots do.

Agree, its an arms race and Blizzard has a fine line to walk as well, be to aggressive and end up banning innocent players, be to lenient and get flac for it. As for people just casting starfall, well yea.. seems some people really only know 1 or 2 buttons.. Bots better be as bad as players if they don't want to be noticed

however, in the situation you described of a player just raid logging or doing their mission tables and a couple world quests and calling it a day, this means that Blizzard is failing to incentivize play for them.

Or they lack the time or are happy doing just a few activities. Some people only log on to do pet battles apparently.

I mean, myself as an example, I work 40+ hour paid normally, have several standby hours/days, take care of my sick mother and housekeeping, a dog to entertain, movies and series to watch, other games I like to play.. I can't/don't spend hours in WoW. Now there are surely people who do the same but also have children to take care of, some might even have real life friends to spend time with outside of wow.. Seems some people even have a sport to spend time on

These aren't the same game and have different intended audiences. Retail WoW is best defined by convenience and has boiled down the experience to endgame progression. Outside of story and world quests there isn't that much to do if you're not a hardcore raider. In the world of a themepark MMO, this simply is not enough. Consider how games like ESO keep all previous content relevant by spreading out unique item sets (both drops and craftables) between zones (incl. delves), dungeons, trials (raid equivalent), and PvP. Comparing WoW to most MMOs, if you aren't doing hardcore (or progression) content, you're really just paying more for less given the lack of casual content.

TBC, on the other hand, is not an alt friendly experience and is not meant to be. There is a set path for gear progression which will likely be followed throughout the expansion and, due to loot scarcity, alts will likely need to wait some time before having gear from recent raids made available to them. The system is a little antiquated, but delayed gratification makes people feel more invested in their characters.

I was mostly aiming at "to little content in retail/ there is a draught" argument, while some people keep referring to Vanilla/TBC as the be all of WoW and the use your main to gear up your alt wish.

So, what is there in Vanilla/TBC that is missing in modern WoW? Isn't it pretty much the same since TBC? Dailies, pet battles, leveling alts, fishing/farming, just roaming around, helping others, pvp.. Not to mention the amount of pets/mounts/toys there is to collect.

For a 'causal' player Raiding and doing more difficult content like Mythic (not perse M+) are added to that list in modern WoW. Pugging existed for sure, but according to Blizzard themselves Raiding is (still?) only done by a few players. In TBC, if you done the heroic dungeons you were pretty much done. Now people can argu M+ is the same content harder, but well, at least you get to do it harder and with different strategies most likely. (Not that different with a game like say doom where you can pick harder difficulties after you practiced the easier ones long enough)

Blizzard never really liked the "use main to gear up alts" and IMHO modern WoW is a lot easier to do it this way then the original WoW and several expansions down the line.

As for keeping content relevant, I guess that's partly the goal of Time walking, vs the "Blizzard keeps reharsing the same content complaints". if there is one thing WoW players are good at is having wonderfully opposite wishes.

[Trbn]

That I used the boost, nobody died, and it benefited more people directly than it harmed.

I can read
I was asking why did you decide anybody intrested in your story?

[Prag]

Grats for supporting bad practices and contributing to having more and more mtxs in the future. And not just in this game but future Blizz games. Have a cookie.

Gonna go out on a limb and guess that they’ll add stuff regardless, considering my lack of purchasing previously didn’t stop it?

And I definitely didn’t injure myself or, more importantly, our 3rd Kara group that has had to cancel 2/3 of their raids because they can’t find a healer.

You want to see all downside, and that’s just not the reality.

[Mahcake]

That I used the boost, nobody died, and it benefited more people directly than it harmed.

If you can’t see/foresee what buying a specific thing can do thus “saying” with your money what you want than there’s nothing to talk about with you.