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  1. #61
    is it better than casual/hardcore people use (without any actual division) on mmo-c? yes, ofc
    is it in any way accurate? i would say no...
    it might describe big part of playerbase though (at least bigger than casual/hardcore division), so it is a progress
    Last edited by Lolites; 2022-11-07 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #62
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    In the end the whole distinction boils down to:
    - players who enjoy WoWs holy trinity of content: organized raiding, mythic+ and ranked PvP
    - players who don't enjoy that.

    I've never seen a casual vs. hardcore discussion where time playing actually mattered, that was always just used to gaslight the terms.
    You cannot really call it a holy trinity of content if one form of that content has existed for less than one third of the existence of the game. Which means that it can be expanded to include other things as long as the devs want to.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    M+ was created to have a less time-consuming progression alternative to raiding. There is stuff there for people from the first group with less time.
    But there is usually no real progression alternative for people in the second group. Thats why they are complaining so often. Thats the whole basis of the casual-hardcore discussions.

    If poor dear doesn't have enough time for Mythic Raiding and has to do M+ or ranked PVP instead no one sheds a tear, i'm afraid.

    And we both don't know but my guess is that LFR was made for people that don't enjoy organized and hard content. Which is basically the second group. Because from the pure time constraints LFR still often needs 2-3 hours per section with queueing time + wipes and in that timeframe you could probably join a raid group.
    Blizz official statement back then was something like "not enough raid and its wasted effort making content 90% dont play, so we are adding lfr to get everyone into the content we create" They werent concerned why people dont raid but the fact that people don't use the content they produce.

    LFR = you dont need to learn the fight, dont need to search for a group, dont need higher ilvl (compared to min lfr) nor achievs because groups want you already on clear xp. Its leagues less painless than pugging even just normal. M+ dungeons are shorter than raids but have same issue with finding groups. Why do you think boosting surged? If people could do it without payment they wouldn't pay. And the people who dont wish to pay simply stop.

    M+ has same issue as raiding requiring curve since they did the addon tracking how much you played m+. The dungeons are short but now you need to grind to get easy groups. So its not casual friendly either. You could of course run low m+ easily but that beats the point of using it for progress.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    In the end the whole distinction boils down to:
    - players who enjoy WoWs holy trinity of content: organized raiding, mythic+ and ranked PvP
    - players who don't enjoy that.

    I've never seen a casual vs. hardcore discussion where time playing actually mattered, that was always just used to gaslight the terms.
    All generalizations fail at some point, but I suggest casuals can be described as players who don't want to be judged.

    Sticking rating systems into the game is the very last thing players like this would want. Hell, even the existence of the Armory will turn them off.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You cannot really call it a holy trinity of content if one form of that content has existed for less than one third of the existence of the game. Which means that it can be expanded to include other things as long as the devs want to.
    Sure. Thats why those all those casual vs hardcore (or however you will want to call those groups) exist. Because the people from group two want some progression outside of raiding, M+ or ranked PVP and many people from group one don't want that. And Blizz doesn't either (especially with Ion at the helm).

    Quote Originally Posted by mbit2 View Post
    [...]
    Yes, thats what i basically said. M+ is for "hardcores" that can't or won't raid for some reason. It doesn't help "casuals" because it's too organized and too difficult. LFR is for "casuals", thats why Blizz neuters its rewards time an time again.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    In the end the whole distinction boils down to:
    - players who enjoy WoWs holy trinity of content: organized raiding, mythic+ and ranked PvP
    - players who don't enjoy that.

    I've never seen a casual vs. hardcore discussion where time playing actually mattered, that was always just used to gaslight the terms.
    the holy trinity of wow is pve, pvp, and leveling.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    the holy trinity of wow is pve, pvp, and leveling.
    The holy Trinity of wow is Arthas, Sargeras, and the Jailor.

    Just kidding. No one will ever agree on these definitions by the way. This thread seems full of people who are like, “Come on guys, obviously my definition is right!”

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    The holy Trinity of wow is Arthas, Sargeras, and the Jailor.

    Just kidding. No one will ever agree on these definitions by the way. This thread seems full of people who are like, “Come on guys, obviously my definition is right!”
    well i think everyone can agree mythic plus is damn sure not part of a holy trinity. the playerbase had collapsed when m+ was introduced and its only decreased since then. m+ is a total failure of a game mode. who the hell plays that garbage? most wow players i know avoid m+. in my last wow guild that raided CN, we had a grand total of 1 player that took m+ seriously.

    m+ is a waste of time and should be removed.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Just kidding. No one will ever agree on these definitions by the way. This thread seems full of people who are like, “Come on guys, obviously my definition is right!”
    My trinity was "fun factor," leveling, and well-written lore.

  10. #70
    i play casually (not taking things too seriously and do what i enjoy).
    that is all i want to do. i do not care that some dev team wants me to raid or whatever to progress my character. the more they try to dictate how i play the more likely i am to gtfo.

    this is pretty much why i've been gravitating towards horizontal prog games because i'm more into playing the content i like rather than chasing item levels in boring ass grinds to then finally be able to play what i want.
    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post

    Yes, thats what i basically said. M+ is for "hardcores" that can't or won't raid for some reason. It doesn't help "casuals" because it's too organized and too difficult. LFR is for "casuals", thats why Blizz neuters its rewards time an time again.
    I was using casual as in "plays little hours" and trying to address the other side of the coin. What i was trying to say is mythic raiders who had to reduce playtime can't retire into m+ because players created the same timegate issue with m+ score. So former mythic raiders don't lack skill but are lacking time to grind their m+ score and are thereby likewise excluded from m+. The only positive is what you already pointed out before - raiding requires long sessions while m+ runs go under a hour. Its a solution for people who cant play long uninterrupted sessions but can still play a lot in total. These people exist obviously and are very happy. Players who had to reduce total playtime however have no challenging activity to play. Its either you commit hours to the game or you can get the theme park experience visiting the lfr attraction.

    This is also why mage tower was nice - it was challenging content for people who had no gear and no time to tryhard raids/m+. Scratched the itch in absence of any other content they could do for a challenge. (and yeah i know some of them were easy even in the free gear but you prolly did multiple classes given you had nothing else to do anyway) Torghast could have easily become the next big thing with infinite levels + saving progress and a scoreboard but they missed that opportunity.

  12. #72
    The Patient Lazerbrain's Avatar
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    Okay hear me out, i'm not represented by your chart here, I might be a "Lifestyle Hobbyist", or "Social Tryhard" , meaning I play many games "hardcore" and jump between them, none is more important than the other, so i'm not carried anywhere, often I grind to set up a environment where I can carry my "Hardcore Hobbyist" friends. This can be in any online game, I don't wanna list em cause it would be to long here. If you check out my youtube, link below, you can get a idea of the variety of games i play, a lot of different ones, but gaming is my lifestyle and I do schedule my gaming to fit with my friends.

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