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  1. #241
    when wotlkc comes out, we will be hearing blizz take about there massive uptick in profits, because WOTLK was the best expansion and version of wow to ever exist. it was the peak for a reason going into cata launch.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's basically the bridge expansion between the more old school game and the newer, more gameplay focused WoW, but i think it gets largely carried by the fact that a lot of people started playing during that Expansion (or really started to dig into the endgame) and also that it wrapped up one of Warcraft's most iconic plotlines.
    those infamous wrath babies ^^

    If we analyze the sub curve, the number of subs keeps increasing non stop in vanilla and TBC, it was WotLK that knee cap that progression and plateau the number of sub.
    WotLK the the first expansion to end with less players it started with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    when wotlkc comes out, we will be hearing blizz take about there massive uptick in profits, because WOTLK was the best expansion and version of wow to ever exist. it was the peak for a reason going into cata launch.
    obviously it's subjective, but i'm curious, in all honesty, what made it for you? what was it that WotLK had other expansion didn't to make it the best in your views?

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Someone explain to me the whole WotLK fever, it was an OK expansion, some hits, some miss

    the +
    great lore (arthas, the lich king, the titans)
    great continent (better than outland i think)
    improve class gameplay (and better balance between spec)
    Ulduar and ICC fantastic raids

    the -
    2 out of the 4 tier were garbage (naxx 2.0 so easy it was tank and spank, and trial of the crusader, one arena 4 boss, no trash and a final boss below)
    each tier pretty much killed the previous tier
    Heroic dungeons were a pure joke (and only 9 at launch, against 15 for tbc)
    Dungeon finder
    12 month of ICC seriously?

    For me, TBC is the golden age of wow,
    great lore for an old warcraft 3 player (kael'thas, illidan, medhiv...)
    love the progression system through attunement
    love the sense of community of not having an anonymous dungeon finder.
    and love the heroic dungeon grinding in tbc
    this is of course only my opinion:

    1. the best questing in the game, only improved on BC
    2. fun zones and end zones built with flying in mind (similar to bc)
    3. raids began to have more then 1 mechanic and were all unique after naxx. wotlk introduced what id consider real raiding, vs bullet sponge raiding of vanilla/tbc
    4. ULD, TOC, and ICC were all AMAZING raids. a no trash chill tier was awesome IMO
    5. Dungeons released through out the expac that gave increasing gear levels as catch up
    6. Heroics were FUN and FAST and easy, unlike easy slow and unrewarding version of BC
    7. gearing system was at its peak in wow for PVE and PVP with badges
    8. Very little mandatory rep grinding, but still some (hod rep)
    9. TONS of extra raids, sarth, maly, WG raid bosses released each tier, ony, RS
    10. Great catch up mechanics and alt friendly
    11. 10m and 25m raids, heroic introduced later
    12. wintergrasp was the peak of fun wow pvp
    13. all professions were useful and gave combat benefits
    14. all specs being playable and the removal of the party buff system to be raid wide
    15. no timegated flying bullshit (this was the same for bc, and carried to pandaland)

    and then NUMBER 1, best part for me:

    LFG. lfg is the single best thing wow has ever introduced, second only to flying from bc-panda. the original version of LFG made the game 10000% more fun for me, i love doing dungeons, leveling in dungeons, doing tabard rep in dungeons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    those infamous wrath babies ^^

    If we analyze the sub curve, the number of subs keeps increasing non stop in vanilla and TBC, it was WotLK that knee cap that progression and plateau the number of sub.
    WotLK the the first expansion to end with less players it started with.

    - - - Updated - - -



    obviously it's subjective, but i'm curious, in all honesty, what made it for you? what was it that WotLK had other expansion didn't to make it the best in your views?
    the peak playerbase was actually in cata, and see above for my opinion on why wotlk was the best

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    this is of course only my opinion:

    1. the best questing in the game, only improved on BC
    2. fun zones and end zones built with flying in mind (similar to bc)
    3. raids began to have more then 1 mechanic and were all unique after naxx. wotlk introduced what id consider real raiding, vs bullet sponge raiding of vanilla/tbc
    4. ULD, TOC, and ICC were all AMAZING raids. a no trash chill tier was awesome IMO
    5. Dungeons released through out the expac that gave increasing gear levels as catch up
    6. Heroics were FUN and FAST and easy, unlike easy slow and unrewarding version of BC
    7. gearing system was at its peak in wow for PVE and PVP with badges
    8. Very little mandatory rep grinding, but still some (hod rep)
    9. TONS of extra raids, sarth, maly, WG raid bosses released each tier, ony, RS
    10. Great catch up mechanics and alt friendly
    11. 10m and 25m raids, heroic introduced later
    12. wintergrasp was the peak of fun wow pvp
    13. all professions were useful and gave combat benefits
    14. all specs being playable and the removal of the party buff system to be raid wide
    15. no timegated flying bullshit (this was the same for bc, and carried to pandaland)

    and then NUMBER 1, best part for me:

    LFG. lfg is the single best thing wow has ever introduced, second only to flying from bc-panda. the original version of LFG made the game 10000% more fun for me, i love doing dungeons, leveling in dungeons, doing tabard rep in dungeons.
    like i said, your opinions are valid as are mine since they're both subjective anyway.
    And i don't disagree with many of your points, many though less important for me.
    The lore of the leveling quest, for instance, while great, is only transitory to max level anyway

    And i strongly disagree on 2 points
    TotC is probably the worst raid dungeon ever been implemented. One room man, no discovery, no exploring, no dungeoning. Being in a competive guild at the time, having to get to that damn arena all week, in 25 , in 10, in normal and hc. And in an expansion with the Lich King, the dragon aspect, the titans, i'm fighting 2 worms and a giant gorilla what?

    Also dungeon were not fun, there were aoe snoozefest. there was no planning and strategy, not great moment to be had, and never never ever the feeling of danger. Doing daily hc became a chore, not a fun experience.

    not saying i disliked the expansion, i cleaned it, every tier before the next one except algalon and yogg 0.

    but hey, that's how i lived it. To each his own.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2021-07-05 at 12:33 AM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    like i said, your opinions are valid as are mine since they're both subjective anyway.
    And i don't disagree with many of your points, many though less important for me.
    The lore of the leveling quest, for instance, while great, is only transitory to max level anyway

    And i strongly disagree on 2 points
    TotC is probably the worst raid dungeon ever been implemented. One room man, no discovery, no exploring, no dungeoning. Being in a competive guild at the time, having to get to that damn arena all week, in 25 , in 10, in normal and hc. And in an expansion with the Lich King, the dragon aspect, the titans, i'm fighting 2 worms and a giant gorilla what?

    Also dungeon were not fun, there were aoe snoozefest. there was no planning and strategy, not great moment to be had, and never never ever the feeling of danger. Doing daily hc became a chore, not a fun experience.

    not saying i disliked the expansion, i cleaned it, every tier before the next one except algalon and yogg 0.

    but hey, that's how i lived it. To each his own.
    To be fair, the "exploring" of a raid really isnt a factor for most people A) because its already been heavily datamined beforehand, and Blizzard even doing previews showing the entire raid and all the bosses, and B) even if there was exploring to be done, that covers your first ever time through, and thats it.

    Secondly, some of the 5mans had some amazing moments, including literally being chased by the LK himself, and unless playing with a guild, those dungeons absolutely offered a lot of challenge, at least in the short term. People have a habit of only remembering the flawless runs through with guildies they had and forgetting all the wipefests with pugs. HoR in particular was an absolute nightmare if all members of the team didnt know their roll and perform it well. PoS was a real PoS with inexperienced players as well.

    I know a lot of people who absolutely loved the raid specifically for the reasons you hated it, so as you say, it really is quite subjective.
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    To be fair, the "exploring" of a raid really isnt a factor for most people A) because its already been heavily datamined beforehand, and Blizzard even doing previews showing the entire raid and all the bosses, and B) even if there was exploring to be done, that covers your first ever time through, and thats it.

    Secondly, some of the 5mans had some amazing moments, including literally being chased by the LK himself, and unless playing with a guild, those dungeons absolutely offered a lot of challenge, at least in the short term. People have a habit of only remembering the flawless runs through with guildies they had and forgetting all the wipefests with pugs. HoR in particular was an absolute nightmare if all members of the team didnt know their roll and perform it well. PoS was a real PoS with inexperienced players as well.

    I know a lot of people who absolutely loved the raid specifically for the reasons you hated it, so as you say, it really is quite subjective.
    yes the 3 dungeons released with ICC were offering a better challenge than the original, and were well crafted. i concede that point. But i also think it's blizzard realizing that super easy dungeon just doesn't cut it, people get bored quickly without challenge. So those dungeons are testimonies on how bad and uninspiring were their original dungeons.

    as for your point, yes people know the layout of a raid or dungeon, especially having run it so often. i can close my eyes and and retrace my step through the entire citadel, but still people enjoying pacing through those corridors. Trial of the crusader were one circular arena without any feature and the first boss is 2 giant worms. i mean, ok, let's kill worms i guess. i have never felt so underwhelmed after a patch release.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2021-07-05 at 01:33 AM.

  7. #247
    Nope.

    Cleared every single fight when it was current (and multiple times over on private servers as well). Wrath Classic, like the two before it, are going to release on the final balance patch and everything is going to be just as braindead-easy as TBC is.

    I don't buy into the nostalgia thing; if I'm not having fun with Retail then I find another game to play entirely. Didn't play Vanilla Classic, or TBC Classic, not going to play any after that either, even if Wrath and MoP were my favourite expansions.

    Private server meta is going to carry onto Wrath Classic just like it did the previous two, a meta which is even more boring than the game was when it was current. No thanks, I'll just stick to Shadowlands until I get bored of it and move on.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Nope.

    Cleared every single fight when it was current (and multiple times over on private servers as well). Wrath Classic, like the two before it, are going to release on the final balance patch and everything is going to be just as braindead-easy as TBC is.

    I don't buy into the nostalgia thing; if I'm not having fun with Retail then I find another game to play entirely. Didn't play Vanilla Classic, or TBC Classic, not going to play any after that either, even if Wrath and MoP were my favourite expansions.

    Private server meta is going to carry onto Wrath Classic just like it did the previous two, a meta which is even more boring than the game was when it was current. No thanks, I'll just stick to Shadowlands until I get bored of it and move on.
    Fair enough, but you do realize how EXTREMELY easy it is to entirely ignore the "meta" shit, right? Just dont play with those people. TBCC seems absolutely fine, although I am sure the forums are full of people saying "I literally cannot play X spec because of the community!". When in reality, what they are saying is "the meta slave groups in chat wont take me" - which is FINE. Start your own group and take non meta specs - boom, you just became part of the solution, not the problem, or B> join a guild, play with friends.

    I never had any issue getting into groups in vanilla, and I havnt had any issue in TBCC.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Fair enough, but you do realize how EXTREMELY easy it is to entirely ignore the "meta" shit, right? Just dont play with those people. TBCC seems absolutely fine, although I am sure the forums are full of people saying "I literally cannot play X spec because of the community!". When in reality, what they are saying is "the meta slave groups in chat wont take me" - which is FINE. Start your own group and take non meta specs - boom, you just became part of the solution, not the problem, or B> join a guild, play with friends.

    I never had any issue getting into groups in vanilla, and I havnt had any issue in TBCC.
    Hard pass.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Hard pass.
    Hard pass on what? Im absolutely fine with you playing whatever the hell you want, but to use the reason "private server meta" ruining it - thats entirely on you. Its one of those things you read far more about on the forums from people who have literally never loaded the game up than you do in game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssria View Post
    I'm the only guy that has a clue as to what's wrong with the game and how it can be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Size doesn't matter

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    those infamous wrath babies ^^
    If we analyze the sub curve, the number of subs keeps increasing non stop in vanilla and TBC, it was WotLK that knee cap that progression and plateau the number of sub.
    WotLK the the first expansion to end with less players it started with.
    The possibility that people left during Wotlk and new players joined has never crossed your mind?

    Like, when 1000 people leave and 1000 people join, you still have the same amount of people.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    I wouldn't touch Wrath, to be honest. I said it in a previous thread on the subject but the mere thought of doing lvl 80 Naxx after farming it for 6 months in Classic is enough to make me not want to bother even leveling. Top that off with the braindead heroics, Dungeon Finder killing server communities and low lvl world zones, and only one really good raid to look forward to my excitement for Wrath Classic is at absolute zero.
    That makes sense. Nax got i cluded in WotL because barely anyone played the original. But in Classic we all got that chance to do it right. I don't believe peole are going to lime WotL Nax as much this time around.

  13. #253
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    im looking forward for BFA Classic, 8.3 was really fun.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Someone explain to me the whole WotLK fever, it was an OK expansion, some hits, some miss

    the +
    great lore (arthas, the lich king, the titans)
    great continent (better than outland i think)
    improve class gameplay (and better balance between spec)
    Ulduar and ICC fantastic raids

    the -
    2 out of the 4 tier were garbage (naxx 2.0 so easy it was tank and spank, and trial of the crusader, one arena 4 boss, no trash and a final boss below)
    each tier pretty much killed the previous tier
    Heroic dungeons were a pure joke (and only 9 at launch, against 15 for tbc)
    Dungeon finder
    12 month of ICC seriously?

    For me, TBC is the golden age of wow,
    great lore for an old warcraft 3 player (kael'thas, illidan, medhiv...)
    love the progression system through attunement
    love the sense of community of not having an anonymous dungeon finder.
    and love the heroic dungeon grinding in tbc
    Wotlk was the gateway drug into raiding for the more casual but far larger crowd of wow players.

    Basically blizz shifted their target demography to a diffrent and larger group of people.

    To the great despair of the raiding crowd of vanilla and tbc who for the most part thinks of Wotlk as wrath of the casual king.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    BC was better than Wrath.

    Wrath was the serious ramp up of the "Go Go Go" mentality in dungeons. Wrath was the start of raids being so easy that you could succeed early in the expansion with half your raid dead. Wrath was the walking back of the hero class from what it could have been to being dumbed down to just another new class (but kept that name for PR purposes only).

    This is not to say that Wrath was terrible, just that the beginnings of the decay of WoW started in that expansion. BC had solid growth over its entire run. Wrath only maintained what BC gained. Every expansion after Wrath involved less and less effort on the part of Blizz. Wrath at least put in about the same effort as BC.

    I have no doubt that Blizz will release Classic Wrath, but I'll be skipping that expansion altogether.
    This, exactly this.
    Though I probably will play a bit of Wrath, if only because I love the leveling phase. But Naxx just obsoleted so much content and was so trivial that I'm not sure it'll be any fun to play past the pex.
    WotLK is the beginning of the hamster's wheel, where you faceroll content (pathetically easy 5-man) to get end-game reward. Downright loot distributor removing most of what the game is fun about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    TBC Classic is equally or more faceroll than T7, the raids that is.
    Absolutely ridiculous claim.
    Either you're trying to humblebrag too hard about how easy TBC is, or you have very bad memory of what the ACTUAL faceroll (not the bullshit "faceroll" brag that means prepared hardcore guilds can clean easily the content while most people wipe on it) that was WotLK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    And we've already seen that Naxx Classic was hilariously easy, it's just as easy as 25man Naxx with all the world buffs and an optimised raid group, if not easier.
    And you seem to double down on ridiculousness. Even with WB, Naxx Classic was ten times harder than WotLK. Even at the time with a guild less experienced than today, we had an easier time than we had during Classic. That claim is so full of shit it's not even possible to take it seriously.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Milfshaked View Post
    I think it is kinda funny that Wrath HCs are remembered as faceroll just because people spent half the expansion in 80 item levels above them. Wrath HCs are really not that easy in normal dungeon gear. Sure, they are not the pinnacle of difficulty and far easier than M+ keystones, but compared to other expansions HC dungeons, they are not really easier than most. Halls of lightning especially is a massive pug breaker.
    Bullshit. They were faceroll even in leveling gear. We actually had moments where we though we were in "normal" mode and not "heroic mode" and went back to check because we honestly couldn't see any meaningful difference, and that was before we even got our dungeon gear.

    Go check the numbers : heroic WotLK instances have only marginally higher numbers than TBC ones when it comes to damage and health... yet they happen 10 levels higher, with classes which have MASSIVELY increased output and survivability.
    Last edited by Akka; 2021-07-05 at 10:29 AM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Uvania View Post
    im looking forward for BFA Classic, 8.3 was really fun.
    I know there's this meme of "I can't wait for 9.1 classic guys" and I very much doubt the blizzard would bother with classic past Wrath but if they do I legitimately think a cata and mop clasic would change how people actuall perceive those expansions.
    In much the same vein as those 42 glorious minutes shut up the "Vanilla was the real hardcore" faux nostalgia wankers (who probably never even played vanilla) forever.

    EDIT
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Bullshit. They were faceroll even in leveling gear. We actually had moments where we though we were in "normal" mode and not "heroic mode" and went back to check because we honestly couldn't see any meaningful difference, and that was before we even got our dungeon gear.
    ICC 5 mans would gutterstomp players that tried to brute force them in leveling gear, I doubt a tank could even survive Falric and Marwyn even cheesing it with the los tactic. I know for a fact Tyrannus regularly clapped poorly geard (i.e dungeon geared) tank's cheeks.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2021-07-05 at 10:47 AM.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    ICC 5 mans would gutterstomp players that tried to brute force them in leveling gear, I doubt a tank could even survive Falric and Marwyn even cheesing it with the los tactic.
    First off, the post you are replying with deals with Wotlk heroics in general, not just the ICC 5man ones, which were, to be fair, a stepup from the previous Wotlk heroics, but in my opinion still far easier than a lot of the TBC heroics.

    I'd consider them challenging if they were to be released at Wotlk launch, but because they were introduced near the end of Wotlk, you could gear yourself up super quick and then do them with emblem gear.

    Add to this that you quite often ended up with some overgeared player in there, either for daily heroic or that one trinket that never drops, and you generally had no huge problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I know for a fact Tyrannus regularly clapped poorly geard (i.e dungeon geared) tank's cheeks.
    I know for a fact that some TBC bosses / trash mobs clapped appropriately geared tanks - and there they didn't even play any mechanics incorrectly.

  18. #258
    Wrath will be interesting because the tryhards and zoomers will burn out very quickly in tier 1. Even way back in the original release, my guild literally cleared all the content in the first two weeks. Naxx was Naxx, heroics were a joke, and then all you had was those dragon bosses.

    I'd expect all that stuff to be cleared the day it opens, and then what is everyone going to do? Run Naxx for months AGAIN?

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    First off, the post you are replying with deals with Wotlk heroics in general, not just the ICC 5man ones, which were, to be fair, a stepup from the previous Wotlk heroics, but in my opinion still far easier than a lot of the TBC heroics.

    I'd consider them challenging if they were to be released at Wotlk launch, but because they were introduced near the end of Wotlk, you could gear yourself up super quick and then do them with emblem gear.

    Add to this that you quite often ended up with some overgeared player in there, either for daily heroic or that one trinket that never drops, and you generally had no huge problems.
    First of all the ICC 5 mans don't just not count because they were released with the fall patch. His claim was you could face roll Wrath heroics in levelling gear, when you account for those dungeons is just demonstrably false (which is just a result of a not insignificant amount of WoW's difficulty coming down to maths), that doesn't prevent TBC heroics from being harder.

    I do agree when you factor gear availability the ICC heroics were probably easier than they should have been because many players outgeared them before they even released. But trivialising content through outgearing it is like one of the basic principles of the game. TBC heroics are 'faceroll' in sunwell gear, the cata heroics would have been faceroll if everyone had tier 11.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  20. #260
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    Imagine skipping one of the best expansions ever with great raids, HC dungeons, pvp, lore, attunements, etc...

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