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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    First of all the ICC 5 mans don't just not count because they were released with the fall patch. His claim was you could face roll Wrath heroics in levelling gear, when you account for those dungeons is just demonstrably false (which is just a result of a not insignificant amount of WoW's difficulty coming down to maths), that doesn't prevent TBC heroics from being harder.
    I think that is a huge misconstruction of the situation.

    The poster he replied talked about Wrath heroics and even citied Halls of Lightning, hence it's big red flag that it was about Wotlk launch heroics, which by the way were complete faceroll even in leveling gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    But trivialising content through outgearing it is like one of the basic principles of the game. TBC heroics are 'faceroll' in sunwell gear, the cata heroics would have been faceroll if everyone had tier 11.
    The problem is that by the time Sunwell came out, heroics were already out for over year.
    When ICC heroics came out, they were new content, not 1+ year old content, hence it's reasonable to expect that everyone has some amount of gear (disregarding how easy it was to gear a character in late Wotlk).
    This scenario of someone doing it with leveling gear is simply not a realistic one because the basic Ilvl requirement to queue for them via LFD was above leveling gear.

    You could make a comparison with Magister's Terrace, because that also launched like the ICC 5man with the last content patch, but i will argue that Magister's Terrace HC was harder than any of those ICC heroics because the trash was nasty, the bosses also required a modicum of strategy and there you couldn't as easily rely on the help of superior geared players because of the lack of LFD and the daily heroic.

    Magister's Terrace is one of those "I wouldn't pug it without a proper comp" heroics, whereas every single ICC 5man heroic was still doable with any comp.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-05 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #262
    Epic! rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I did play both at a high level, and no drake sarth was comparable to magtheridon difficulty. Easily puggable, and the mount was sold all the time over it. And don’t forget it could be done 10 man, automatically
    Making it easier

    And as for naxx 2.0, it was the easiest raid content ever put into WoW imho. So easy that they had to put in undying and immortal achievements just to make it spicy. Notice that those two achievements never managed to make it Into any other raid in WoW history… I wonder why…

    ICC was hard on heroic, but it can’t even compare to pre nerf sunwell which was the hardest content ever put into WoW. Wotlk didn’t have anything that compared, and being able to do 10 or 25 man invalidated it too on some other level
    so are we just gonna ignore the champion/conqueror of ulduar then?, because they were the exact same thing, you then had the tributes in 3.2, it was after that they discontinued them, every raid tier until ICC had a version of the achievement to complete the raid without having anybody die at any point etc, and it has been brought back in limited capacity in some encounters over the time also, so stop spouting bullshit please.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think that is a huge misconstruction of the situation.

    The poster he replied talked about Wrath heroics and even citied Halls of Lightning, hence it's big red flag that it was about Wotlk launch heroics, which by the way were complete faceroll even in leveling gear.
    I don't really see an issue with leveling my strongest argument if the poster was so careless as to make such a genralist comment. Especially when said poster is a seething nostalgia baiter who refuse to accept the hard parts of the game are harder now than in the past.
    HoL is a terrible example of a faceroll dungeon anyway because those first pulls and Loken are absolutely infamous for the amount of wipes they cause.

    The simple fact is that actual diffuclty is is impacted by many external factors that 'objective' difficulty is almost irrelvent, especially when it comes to 5mans. I mean the same factors (gear availability and time accessability) that make the TBC heroics actually harder than the ICC 5mans are what make the cata heroics harder than the TBC ones. I mean if the cata heroics were never nerfed they probably wouldn't retain their legendary status because gear availability would have eventually made them (largely) brute forcable.
    Hell even M+ has raised the bar so high even the hardest static content done in the worst gear is just baby kiddle pool nonsense that effectivly renders the whole argument pointless.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  4. #264
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The possibility that people left during Wotlk and new players joined has never crossed your mind?

    Like, when 1000 people leave and 1000 people join, you still have the same amount of people.
    which means Vanilla and TBC had a better retention rate. If number increased in TBC, it means more people join than left, doesn't it?

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    muru is a faceroll joke compared to every single boss in wotlk naxx included
    Lol. You can't be serious, maybe post nerf.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I don't really see an issue with leveling my strongest argument if the poster was so careless as to make such a genralist comment..
    I see a problem when the scenario you are talking about actually requires people to bypass the LFD system, because you cannot enter ICC heroics with leveling gear due to the Ilvl requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    HoL is a terrible example of a faceroll dungeon anyway because those first pulls and Loken are absolutely infamous for the amount of wipes they cause.
    Those "first pulls" are only dangerous if you overpull one pack too many.
    In other words: Hubris

    And Loken solely stands out because he's the one boss in heroics that could actually kill undergeared people when they don't play the mechanics correctly and was likely the first time a lot of players actually encountered "mechanics" in WoW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The simple fact is that actual diffuclty is is impacted by many external factors that 'objective' difficulty is almost irrelvent, especially when it comes to 5mans.
    It is, because as said above, the scenario you talking about is not realistic, people didn't enter ICC heroics with leveling gear because they couldn't use LFD to queue for it due to Ilvl requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I mean the same factors (gear availability and time accessability) that make the TBC heroics actually harder than the ICC 5mans are what make the cata heroics harder than the TBC ones.
    This is just historical revitionism on an insane level.

    TBC heroics weren't just difficult because of the lack of gear, but rather because threat was still a pretty huge deal and those mobs two one shotted anything that's not a tank.
    Add to that anything that's not a Pally was not capable of AoE tanking and packs consisting out of 4-6 mobs, one can see why TBC can be pretty brutal at times.

    Due to the Revered requirement alone, it was already ensured that a fresh 70 can't just walk into heroics but has some 70 normal dungeons completed.

    Mate, it seems to me this whole discussion seems to have touched a nerve, because i have no idea why one needs to argue over this and the fact that you glossed over the one proper comparison (Magister's Terrace vs. ICC heroics) also doesn't make a good impression.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Hell even M+ has raised the bar so high even the hardest static content done in the worst gear is just baby kiddle pool nonsense that effectivly renders the whole argument pointless.
    I really have no idea what a mode with infinite scaling has to do with this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    which means Vanilla and TBC had a better retention rate. If number increased in TBC, it means more people join than left, doesn't it?
    Yes, but the point is that it is very much a possibility that a lot of new players joined the game despite sub numbers not increasing.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    The most hardcore guilds in the world struggle hard on muru . A few month later Wrath and Naxx comes out and every drooling casual pugs Naxx.
    Wrath Naxx was so hard that everyone and his dog farmed it in pugs. It was so hard that the only single micro challenge was trying to get Immortal or Undying.
    If they do Wrath of the Lich King Classic, they need to take the #SomeChanges approach. Naxxramas and Trial of the Crusader need a serious difficulty increase for starters.

    A friend of mine quit WoW during Burning Crusade because he felt Blizzard were making the game too easy for casuals (to put his words in non-offensive terms.) If he knew how easy they made Naxxramas in Wrath, he'd have a freaking aneurysm.

    I'd also fix some serious balance issues with the game, like remove Hunter dead zone, nerf Rogues in PvP, nerf Mages across the board and give Paladins an actual aoe heal so they aren't shoehorned into a very small tank healing niche that you only ever need one healer to fulfill.

    Oh, and remove Dungeon Finder from the final phase.

  8. #268
    simply No,
    I decided today to en my sub mainly due to TBC is just starting to repeat the same problems as retail and in common fashion Blizzard is making it worse.

  9. #269
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    If they do Wrath of the Lich King Classic, they need to take the #SomeChanges approach. Naxxramas and Trial of the Crusader need a serious difficulty increase for starters.

    A friend of mine quit WoW during Burning Crusade because he felt Blizzard were making the game too easy for casuals (to put his words in non-offensive terms.) If he knew how easy they made Naxxramas in Wrath, he'd have a freaking aneurysm.

    I'd also fix some serious balance issues with the game, like remove Hunter dead zone, nerf Rogues in PvP, nerf Mages across the board and give Paladins an actual aoe heal so they aren't shoehorned into a very small tank healing niche that you only ever need one healer to fulfill.

    Oh, and remove Dungeon Finder from the final phase.
    all your shit ideas would just make wotlk worse. a lot worse lmfao. literally every single idea you have is bad.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    all your shit ideas would just make wotlk worse. a lot worse lmfao. literally every single idea you have is bad.
    Hunters had the lowest representation in Wrath PvP for a reason... Most classes WTFhardcounter them because of their dead zone and their awful levels of utility. They are the only ranged class in the game with a minimum attack range, which is a nightmare to balance. Oh, and they used mana as a primary resource despite rarely, if ever building intellect. This meant that a few mana burn or drain mana casts could render them worthless.

    Rogues had multiple gap closers, escape abilities, mitigation abilities, the ability to cheat death and the only 70% slow in the game. Certainly a lot more than a Hunter's measly three CDs. Master's Call, Deterrence and Disengage are nowhere near enough to keep a rogue with more than two brain cells away from you.

    Frost Mages had a 60% slow, two roots, two shields, ice block and craptonnes of burst. All you have to do as a Frost Mage is get into melee range and you've won.

    Arms Warriors had a 50% healing reduction with a 100% uptime, two gap closers (three if you count Intercept) and heavy burst. Oh and did I forget Bladestorm and the fact that Warriors can viably be played in PvP as Protection because Shield Slam with the correct amount of min-maxxing hits like a dump truck? In late Wrath they could get the same effect with all their abilities just by stacking ArP and being able to 2-shot people.

    Priests, on top of either having absurdly strong dots or absurdly strong heals, had Mana Burn, which is an outright broken way of drinking mana from your opponents that can burn 10% of a caster's bar from one single 2 second cast. Hunters meanwhile have to rely on Viper Sting, which drinks just a fraction of this on a 15 second CD that can be dispelled.

    Warlocks excelled from their dot dot dot dot dot dot fear playstyle and could also drain mana almost as effectively as a Priest can. Hunters can't compete with them They don't need to feed their minions, buy ammunition or even have to worry about being unable to fight back against a melee attacker. Warlocks are superior to Hunters in almost every department.

    Death Knights were stupidly powerful regardless of spec. They may have dropped in Arena representation due to nerfs but they still remained insanely strong throughout much of Wrath.

    Ret Paladins were so broken at one point that in the 3.0.2 prepatch they were able to ROFLstomp in mere greens. The only reason they didn't see play in Arena was because they lacked the utility that Warriors had.

    You can't deny that Wrath was one of the most imbalanced PvP experiences to ever exist. Ghostcrwaler had such a raging hatred for Hunters that the moment a Beast Cleave comp won MLG Orlando, Hunters had Bestial Wrath nerf-batted within two days of their only major Arena accomplishment. Meanwhile OPAF comps like TSG, Man Cleave and RMP were allowed to reign supreme completely unchecked.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-07-05 at 11:14 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    simply No,
    I decided today to en my sub mainly due to TBC is just starting to repeat the same problems as retail and in common fashion Blizzard is making it worse.
    I have done the same for very same reasons. I may go back if they release fresh vanilla realms but i'm not holding my breath.

  12. #272
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    No idea how old this thread is but I'm not super looking forward to WoTLK, TBC scratches that itch far better.

    While dungeon and raid content in TBC isn't necessarily difficult, there's absolutely no difficulty aside from 3D Sartharion from entry level dungeon/raid content in WoTLK, and that sort of puts me off. I wouldn't call TBC heroic dungeon design the pinnacle of dungeon design, nor were boss mechanics all that engaging, but you still can't face pull multiple packs on heroic without kiting or using some forms of CC. WoTLK has decently designed bosses with actual mechanics, but the tuning is just so low that you can ignore most of it.

    On the raid front only 3D Sartharion really posed a challenge, with Naxxaramas being a complete joke.

    From a design standpoint the direction they took WoTLK made sense. Heroic dungeons were too hard for the majority of the player base and Blizzards raid content (aside from Karazhan and ZA) was pretty out of reach for the majority of the player base. WoTLK literally was a massive knee jerk reaction in the opposite direction, by making dungeons incredibly easy (some of this is power creep and access to more AoE) and making raid content accessible to everybody. Achievements were added for various reason, but achievements on the dungeon/raid front were made to replace difficulty completely but having things that would randomly 'challenge' you. Instead of making difficult encounters, they had you do dungeons and raid content in weird quirky ways that nobody would ever do (for the most part). Ulduar expanded on this system by taking the 3D Sartharion approach and applying it to half of the raid encounter.

    Achievements to me always felt sort of cheap and I honestly didn't like them right from the get go. I think part of my distaste for them stemmed from them being an obvious attempt at replacing difficulty in dungeon/raid content, by having you jump through hoops for quirky points being added to your achievement tab. I got both the Undying and the Immortal multiple times, and I wouldn't call them a necessarily fun experience. It caused people to get mad more often than not as you had one opportunity as week to get that achievement, and something as simple as a disconnect at the wrong time could ruin it (we lost a few to just disconnects in general). Pretty much everybody I raided with at time hated the achievement, and the consensus was that Naxxaramas being filled with half a dozen 3D Sartharion "tuned" bosses would have made 3.0 raiding a much better experience.

    While it's unlikely they deviate too much on how WoTLK was launched, I sincerely hope they amp up the difficulty of both the base dungeons and entry level raid content when they inevitably release WoTLK.

    Hard doesn't necessarily equate to fun, especially when discussing classic era re-releases, but I think it's sort of a disservice to not rectify mistakes or make some changes to make the content a bit more engaging this time around. MMOs aren't new and most people playing WoTLK are a bit more sophisticated than what we had over a decade ago, so some semblance of challenge would be appreciated IMO. They didn't change the OG Naxx in Classic which is far more difficult than WoTLK Naxx ever was. Basically what I'm asking for is a Naxxaramas 25 that's similar to the original Naxx 40 in difficulty, if not slightly harder in some areas.

    IDK, that's my thoughts anyway. Again difficulty doesn't need to be absurd, but I think something is lost when you're doing a victory lap of content and there isn't some 'challenge'. It's going to happen naturally in Ulduar, ToGC and ICC, but entry level 3.0 content is just "bleh". WoTLK was a mixed bag for me when I played it so long ago and one of the few times I contemplated quitting entirely.

    Being a world first raider (I'm not and have never been) and having to wait ~6 months for new content after spending weeks if not months preparing is probably fine. These players would probably get burned out if content release cycles (raids anyway) were much more frequent, and the event as a whole seeing new bosses being killed would likely lose it's luster. However, WoTLK entry level content basically makes everybody a world first raider (aside from 3D Sartharion) without the need to dedicate a couple weeks to a grueling progression schedule or the preparations prior.

  13. #273
    Yep I am.

    TBC is unfortunately too dated. Blizzard will prolly get muh money once again once Wotlk happens simply because a lot of friends will come back.

    Dont give a flying fuck about challenge, it was always about people.
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  14. #274
    The only 'classic' id play is the one with Gladiator warriors and Demon form warlocks! Yeaaaa Id replay that shit and main those 2
    That would be Warlords of Dreanor me thinks

  15. #275
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    I want wrath classic to be a thing so badly, simply because you wrath babies and after scream it was the best expansion ever. It wasn't. It was the start of the absolute snoozefest and "streamlined" play that is current WoW. I want you to all experience it again so you have to face just how fucking wrong you all are.
    You know, it's kinda funny. On this forum you can question and criticize celebrities, developers, even governments. But only two you will net you instant infractions; religion and the actions of moderators. Really puts into perspective the literal god complexes we're dealing with here.

  16. #276
    Not really, I am enjoying TBC as I consider it the peak of WoW. I am only going to play Wrath if the next expansion sucks hard (like Shadowlands).

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    Wrath will be interesting because the tryhards and zoomers will burn out very quickly in tier 1. Even way back in the original release, my guild literally cleared all the content in the first two weeks. Naxx was Naxx, heroics were a joke, and then all you had was those dragon bosses.

    I'd expect all that stuff to be cleared the day it opens, and then what is everyone going to do? Run Naxx for months AGAIN?
    First of all, people will PvP. Finally, some proper PvP gearing system is going to be present. Also, 2 new BGs and, of course, Wintergrasp, which is a great fun.
    Second, we got achievements' system, which is absolutely a must imo. People will start revisiting classic and TBC content for getting those, plus getting the profession ones and so on.
    Third, we got Inscription, we got DKs - new hero class, many would want to make a DK alt.

    I sincerely hope they add transmog to WoTLK as well. Then, you get a whole new perspective and a thing to do in the game if you cleared the desired PvE content already.

    P.S. I can't see how transmog (which is a pure cosmetic feature, that doesn't impact on player power) could make game worse. Also, it's much needed, cause WoTLK gear has one problem - especially quest and pre-raid gear - it is a lot uglier than TBC and most classic gear was. The art team tried to make it more "realistic-looking" , but in the end the quest pieces and early dungeon blues mostly look like trash. I remember when I first had to switch from T6 / SWP gear to WoTLK blues and it was like wearing rugs after stuff fit for royalty...
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2021-07-06 at 06:25 AM.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    First of all the ICC 5 mans don't just not count because they were released with the fall patch. His claim was you could face roll Wrath heroics in levelling gear, when you account for those dungeons is just demonstrably false (which is just a result of a not insignificant amount of WoW's difficulty coming down to maths), that doesn't prevent TBC heroics from being harder.
    You're being purposely obtuse here.
    The discussion was about early WotLK. ICC 5-men are very, very, very, very obviously not early WoW. Bad faith doesn't make an argument.

    But even then :
    I do agree when you factor gear availability the ICC heroics were probably easier than they should have been because many players outgeared them before they even released. But trivialising content through outgearing it is like one of the basic principles of the game. TBC heroics are 'faceroll' in sunwell gear, the cata heroics would have been faceroll if everyone had tier 11.
    You could very easily (maybe not "faceroll" but "very easily") clear the ICC 5-man with the bare minimum gear the LFD tool would let you enter them. Lower in fact (I kept some useless high-ilvl gear in my bags to cheat the tool precisely because of that). ICC 5-men were about as difficult as normal max level TBC instances.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leotheras the Blind View Post
    I want wrath classic to be a thing so badly, simply because you wrath babies and after scream it was the best expansion ever. It wasn't. It was the start of the absolute snoozefest and "streamlined" play that is current WoW. I want you to all experience it again so you have to face just how fucking wrong you all are.
    This so much.

  19. #279
    Yes waiting very patiently here.

    Played since Vanilla on retail and I could not wait for Classic WoW when it was announced but I knew at the time it was mostly for the levelling & the feeling of being in the World that I was looking forward to. I knew the endgame wasn't really for me.

    Unfortunately TBC wasn't my favourite expansion ever (I just don't LOVE the space/legion themed stuff - i do still like it though), and so I knew I wouldn't really have the motivation to carry on through with it.

    As for Wrath, that was THE expansion for me. From the world feel, the levelling, Northrend, the dungeons, the raids, the PVP, Dalaran, Argent Tournament. Yes please.

  20. #280
    Brewmaster Ermelloth's Avatar
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    WoTLK is probably the most beloved and most anticipated expansion cause it is also a kind of "best of both worlds".

    While it keeps intact the good features of classic WoW era:

    *old talent trees with a possibility to create a lot of specialized builds for different purposes;
    *old world intact;
    *convenient RPG elements intact (like bows requiring arrows, buffs requiring reagents, etc.);
    *crafting professions still being important and offering valuable items;
    *classes still keeping their uniqueness and flavor;
    *larger leveling zones, almost none z-axis / layered stuff yet;
    *Realm related communities still there / no crossrealm stuff.

    At the same time, it added much needed QoL and improvements to the game:

    *Humans get EMFH which ends the one-faction favored PvP at last;
    *All specs are finally made viable, especially in good hands;
    *Hybrids got the deserved love at last;
    *PvP system greatly improved, gear is easier to get, even considering rating req, but at the same time no free loot pinatas;
    *Progression system makes more sense: normal > HC > raids, not like in TBC: normal > easier raids > HCs > hard raids?
    *People can still get OOM, but not after 10 spells cast;
    *DUAL SPEC (huge)
    *Achievements system
    *Flying more accessible / cheaper for alts on same account;


    Finally - the ability to play and enjoy the content w/o mandatory need to be a raider (which isn't the way in Vanilla or TBC) or a high-end Arena player. And this is the most crucial feature, imo, that makes WoTLK so good.

    Take, for example, VoA. Also, stuff like Quel'Delar questline, etc, later 5-men dungeons (FoS, PoS, TOC with a good gear catchup), that make the game a lot more casual friendly. Finally, in WoTLK people who can't afford spending 5-6 hours to wipe in progressive raids, can now have actual fun w/o being condemned to wear shitty blues from normal dungeons throughout entire expansion to be able to barely kill quest mobs. They do still need to be decent and to invest some time, but not to be a nolifer or a metaslave anymore.
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2021-07-06 at 08:29 PM.

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