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  1. #281
    Brewmaster Ermelloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    Wrath will be interesting because the tryhards and zoomers will burn out very quickly in tier 1. Even way back in the original release, my guild literally cleared all the content in the first two weeks. Naxx was Naxx, heroics were a joke, and then all you had was those dragon bosses.

    I'd expect all that stuff to be cleared the day it opens, and then what is everyone going to do? Run Naxx for months AGAIN?
    First of all, people will PvP. Finally, some proper PvP gearing system is going to be present. Also, 2 new BGs and, of course, Wintergrasp, which is a great fun.
    Second, we got achievements' system, which is absolutely a must imo. People will start revisiting classic and TBC content for getting those, plus getting the profession ones and so on.
    Third, we got Inscription, we got DKs - new hero class, many would want to make a DK alt.

    I sincerely hope they add transmog to WoTLK as well. Then, you get a whole new perspective and a thing to do in the game if you cleared the desired PvE content already.

    P.S. I can't see how transmog (which is a pure cosmetic feature, that doesn't impact on player power) could make game worse. Also, it's much needed, cause WoTLK gear has one problem - especially quest and pre-raid gear - it is a lot uglier than TBC and most classic gear was. The art team tried to make it more "realistic-looking" , but in the end the quest pieces and early dungeon blues mostly look like trash. I remember when I first had to switch from T6 / SWP gear to WoTLK blues and it was like wearing rugs after stuff fit for royalty...
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2021-07-06 at 06:25 AM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    First of all the ICC 5 mans don't just not count because they were released with the fall patch. His claim was you could face roll Wrath heroics in levelling gear, when you account for those dungeons is just demonstrably false (which is just a result of a not insignificant amount of WoW's difficulty coming down to maths), that doesn't prevent TBC heroics from being harder.
    You're being purposely obtuse here.
    The discussion was about early WotLK. ICC 5-men are very, very, very, very obviously not early WoW. Bad faith doesn't make an argument.

    But even then :
    I do agree when you factor gear availability the ICC heroics were probably easier than they should have been because many players outgeared them before they even released. But trivialising content through outgearing it is like one of the basic principles of the game. TBC heroics are 'faceroll' in sunwell gear, the cata heroics would have been faceroll if everyone had tier 11.
    You could very easily (maybe not "faceroll" but "very easily") clear the ICC 5-man with the bare minimum gear the LFD tool would let you enter them. Lower in fact (I kept some useless high-ilvl gear in my bags to cheat the tool precisely because of that). ICC 5-men were about as difficult as normal max level TBC instances.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leotheras the Blind View Post
    I want wrath classic to be a thing so badly, simply because you wrath babies and after scream it was the best expansion ever. It wasn't. It was the start of the absolute snoozefest and "streamlined" play that is current WoW. I want you to all experience it again so you have to face just how fucking wrong you all are.
    This so much.

  3. #283
    Yes waiting very patiently here.

    Played since Vanilla on retail and I could not wait for Classic WoW when it was announced but I knew at the time it was mostly for the levelling & the feeling of being in the World that I was looking forward to. I knew the endgame wasn't really for me.

    Unfortunately TBC wasn't my favourite expansion ever (I just don't LOVE the space/legion themed stuff - i do still like it though), and so I knew I wouldn't really have the motivation to carry on through with it.

    As for Wrath, that was THE expansion for me. From the world feel, the levelling, Northrend, the dungeons, the raids, the PVP, Dalaran, Argent Tournament. Yes please.

  4. #284
    Brewmaster Ermelloth's Avatar
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    WoTLK is probably the most beloved and most anticipated expansion cause it is also a kind of "best of both worlds".

    While it keeps intact the good features of classic WoW era:

    *old talent trees with a possibility to create a lot of specialized builds for different purposes;
    *old world intact;
    *convenient RPG elements intact (like bows requiring arrows, buffs requiring reagents, etc.);
    *crafting professions still being important and offering valuable items;
    *classes still keeping their uniqueness and flavor;
    *larger leveling zones, almost none z-axis / layered stuff yet;
    *Realm related communities still there / no crossrealm stuff.

    At the same time, it added much needed QoL and improvements to the game:

    *Humans get EMFH which ends the one-faction favored PvP at last;
    *All specs are finally made viable, especially in good hands;
    *Hybrids got the deserved love at last;
    *PvP system greatly improved, gear is easier to get, even considering rating req, but at the same time no free loot pinatas;
    *Progression system makes more sense: normal > HC > raids, not like in TBC: normal > easier raids > HCs > hard raids?
    *People can still get OOM, but not after 10 spells cast;
    *DUAL SPEC (huge)
    *Achievements system
    *Flying more accessible / cheaper for alts on same account;


    Finally - the ability to play and enjoy the content w/o mandatory need to be a raider (which isn't the way in Vanilla or TBC) or a high-end Arena player. And this is the most crucial feature, imo, that makes WoTLK so good.

    Take, for example, VoA. Also, stuff like Quel'Delar questline, etc, later 5-men dungeons (FoS, PoS, TOC with a good gear catchup), that make the game a lot more casual friendly. Finally, in WoTLK people who can't afford spending 5-6 hours to wipe in progressive raids, can now have actual fun w/o being condemned to wear shitty blues from normal dungeons throughout entire expansion to be able to barely kill quest mobs. They do still need to be decent and to invest some time, but not to be a nolifer or a metaslave anymore.
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2021-07-06 at 08:29 PM.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    While it keeps intact the good features of classic WoW era:

    At the same time, it added much needed QoL and improvements to the game:
    It really was perfect. Just enough room to add more without bloat, and enough novelty left for so much to still feel unexplored and untried.

    Take, for example, VoA. Also, stuff like Quel'Delar questline, etc, later 5-men dungeons (FoS, PoS, TOC with a good gear catchup), that make the game a lot more casual friendly. Finally, in WoTLK people who can't afford spending 5-6 hours to wipe in progressive raids, can now have actual fun w/o being condemned to wear shitty blues from normal dungeons throughout entire expansion to be able to barely kill quest mobs. They do still need to be decent and to invest some time, but not to be a nolifer or a metaslave anymore.
    Gearing paths were a dream. Most players didn't have to grind for a lucky drop at the same time they didn't need constant loot as in later expansions. You could hang tight and plan. At the same time, there were some really fun drops to save for (TAiaB), evergreens (DC:G), and a few niche gaps that in hindsight functioned as intermittent rewards (being stuck with i200 tanking shield).

    Multiple levels of commitment, too. Do your heroics and get on with life...or grind rep for fun, or level an alt and do it all over.

    I swear, if Cataclysm'd somehow never dropped, millions would've kept right on playing.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    Finally - the ability to play and enjoy the content w/o mandatory need to be a raider (which isn't the way in Vanilla or TBC) or a high-end Arena player. And this is the most crucial feature, imo, that makes WoTLK so good.
    Please, i'm not touching this whole Wotlk wankfest that is your post, but this is just plain false.

    When you exclude yourself from raiding, you hardly have more content in Wotlk than in Vanilla or TBC.

    What do you want to do at cap?
    Dungeons - Like in any other expansion
    Crafting - Unquestionably inferior to TBC, you can craft more and more powerful items in TBC than in Wotlk
    Outdoor - You have stuff like Sons of Hodir or Argent Tournament, which aren't exactly the best pieces of content

    Heck, due to the fact PvP gear is inferior to PvE gear even eliminates that gearing path for more casual players.
    Vanilla nor TBC really offer less than that.

    You have achievements, i give you that, but that's about it.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-07 at 07:14 AM.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by deniter View Post
    I have done the same for very same reasons. I may go back if they release fresh vanilla realms but i'm not holding my breath.
    I dont see any reason right now to play Vanilla itself,
    Vanilla + is another thing though if they made "proper" Vanilla style content.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    WoTLK is probably the most beloved and most anticipated expansion cause it is also a kind of "best of both worlds".
    Actually no, it's rather the "start of decay", when the bad aspect of modern WoW design began to ruin the game :

    - Mass AoE spam making dungeon and class gameplay boring.
    - Near-removal of ressource management removing all planning from fights.
    - Dumbing down of tanking making it just a front-of-the-mob DPS class instead of having to actually work for threat.
    - Faceroll 5-man being loot distributor without being interesting content due to how pathetically easy they are.
    - Lobby-based design with automated grouping and game content being selected through a menu.
    And above all the two interlocked worst features :
    - Massive stat inflation completely breaking the balance of the game.
    - Nothing but the latest raid tier is relevant, so the entire "current" content is just a few room and there is no progression anymore as everyone is automatically lifted to the latest release.

    WotLK has all the bad design that made modern WoW shit, it's just an undeserved hype due to, ironically, making so many people leave and replacing them with Wrath babies.

  9. #289
    Brewmaster Ermelloth's Avatar
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    WoTLK had lot better class balance, that's its main feature. And class balance is about 75% of total enjoyment from the game for many players.

    When your favorite class / spec combo is bad, inferior or unwanted in content or all of the above, nothing in the present expansion can make it up for you. Favorite spec sucks = no enjoyment and no fun. That's it.

    Blizzard devs realized that back then (in the end of TBC) and made the needful changes in WoTLK to address the biggest issue which was indeed the class / spec balance. Hence why this expansion is liked the most.

    I do like TBC more than Vanilla, but I'm getting tired of "lf CC dps", "lf 5 Warlocks for Mag" and especially stomach churning list of 58 Mage bots in ZF, Slave Pens and Maraudon when checking /who lists. While to meet a Rogue, Enha Shaman, Ret or Arms Warrior at the moment is a hilariously rare occurrence. There was like 2 Gruul Lair raids in a row w/o a single Rogue, for example. Moonkin, Ele Shaman - even these are a rare sight to be seen. Zounds of BM Hunters, Mages and Locks everywhere along Resto Druid healers.

    You like this? You think it's all right? Nope, its wrong, its stupid, and its not all right. I don't like it. And I'm not alone.

    I want to play what I enjoy. Vanilla had half specs completely unplayable and broken, in TBC some are greatly better than others, and only in WoTLK (around 3.3.5a patch, on which WoTLK Classic is probably gonna be based on) you can more or less enjoy playing anything you want. Tbh, one of the reasons Cataclysm is disliked is that the devs repeated previous mistakes made in Vanilla / TBC / early Wrath and made Rogues and Fire Mages godlike, which completely broke the balance once again.
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2021-07-07 at 09:30 AM.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    WoTLK had lot better class balance, and class balance is 75% of enjoyment from the game for many players. When your favorite class / spec combo is bad, inferior or unwanted in content or all of the above, nothing can pretty much save the game for you. People should realize that, cause Blizzard did back then and make the needful changes in WoTLK to address the biggest issue. Hence why this expansion is so liked.
    That's debatable.

    I for one, prefer that Hybrids actually have some unique aspect to them and aren't just a inferior version of their pure counterparts.

    As someone that has mained Elemental for over a decade on Retail, it just felt like i've been playing an inferior version of mage spec since Wotlk and onwards precisely because Wotlk removed the support aspect of those hybrids.
    There was just hardly any tangible value to it because Mages generally did more dps and had more tools to cheese mechanics.

    Like it or not, but besides Rogues and Warrs, every class has unquestionable value for the raid in TBC and even Rogue and Warrior will certainly pick up once we're moving into T6 and they get better gear.

    In Wotlk, especially in 25man, if a spec doesn't pull solid dps or has some broken ass spell (such as immunities), you're better off rerolling to some superior alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    I do like TBC more than Vanilla, but I'm getting tired of "lf CC dps", "lf 5 Warlocks for Mag" and especially stomach churning list of 58 Mage bots in ZF, Slave Pens and Maraudon when checking /who lists.
    You don't need 5 Locks for Mag, you can even resort to Pallies using Turn Evil to CC those Infernals.

    And those 58 Mage bots have literally nothing to do with class design but the fact they will continue to exist as long as they remain lucrative.

  11. #291
    Brewmaster Ermelloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's debatable.

    I for one, prefer that Hybrids actually have some unique aspect to them and aren't just a inferior version of their pure counterparts.

    As someone that has mained Elemental for over a decade on Retail, it just felt like i've been playing an inferior version of mage spec since Wotlk and onwards precisely because Wotlk removed the support aspect of those hybrids.
    There was just hardly any tangible value to it because Mages generally did more dps and had more tools to cheese mechanics.

    Like it or not, but besides Rogues and Warrs, every class has unquestionable value for the raid in TBC and even Rogue and Warrior will certainly pick up once we're moving into T6 and they get better gear.

    In Wotlk, especially in 25man, if a spec doesn't pull solid dps or has some broken ass spell (such as immunities), you're better off rerolling to some superior alternative.

    You don't need 5 Locks for Mag, you can even resort to Pallies using Turn Evil to CC those Infernals.

    And those 58 Mage bots have literally nothing to do with class design but the fact they will continue to exist as long as they remain lucrative.
    Well, maybe, but go explain that to speedrunners, elitists and M+ boys running raiding guilds today.

    I yet consider myself super lucky, since our small guild accepts everyone and I managed to almost fully gear my Ret in epics and get 2 T4 tokens plus Gorehowl from Prince. But others aren't as lucky as I am, people suffer and many non-casters or non-hunters have just stopped playing or quit the game for good.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    Well, maybe, but go explain that to speedrunners, elitists and M+ boys running raiding guilds today.
    You mean...those people that want to have almost every class / spec present to cover every support tool?
    This isn't Classic where you can have 25 Fury Warrior and still cover every useful (de)buff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    But others aren't as lucky as I am, people suffer and many non-casters or non-hunters have just stopped playing or quit the game for good.
    Again, besides Fury Warrs and Rogues, pretty much every class / spec are useful via some unique support (de)buff.
    And i reiterate, those two will pick up by the time BT rolls around because the current fights are shit for Melee and they scale extremely well with gear.

    Ret => 3% Crit, Sanctity Aura (useful for Prot + 2% damage for the entire pary) + Blessing (you need 3 Pallies to cover every Blessing)
    Enhance => Arguably one of the most sought after specs in TBC, no need to list everything they bring
    Arms => 4% Physical dps + Battle shout
    Feral => 5% Melee Crit, 30% Bleed debuff, another Battle rez, Innervate and solid offtank

    All of them are extremely useful and the only guildleaders that turn away those specs are either full on those or complete fools.

    The only people that are pissed off at this are the ones that seethe over not being #1 on the dps charts, but those specs pretty are extremely valueable to any raid.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Actually no, it's rather the "start of decay", when the bad aspect of modern WoW design began to ruin the game :

    - Mass AoE spam making dungeon and class gameplay boring.
    - Near-removal of ressource management removing all planning from fights.
    - Dumbing down of tanking making it just a front-of-the-mob DPS class instead of having to actually work for threat.
    - Faceroll 5-man being loot distributor without being interesting content due to how pathetically easy they are.
    - Lobby-based design with automated grouping and game content being selected through a menu.
    And above all the two interlocked worst features :
    - Massive stat inflation completely breaking the balance of the game.
    - Nothing but the latest raid tier is relevant, so the entire "current" content is just a few room and there is no progression anymore as everyone is automatically lifted to the latest release.

    WotLK has all the bad design that made modern WoW shit, it's just an undeserved hype due to, ironically, making so many people leave and replacing them with Wrath babies.
    Sadly this started already in TBC.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    Sadly this started already in TBC.
    The only thing that started in TBC is the excessive catch-up mechanics through arena seasons and non-tiered badges. Both were initially fixed in WotLK, before they fucked up with progression and reinstated the badge gear with a vengeance.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    The only thing that started in TBC is the excessive catch-up mechanics through arena seasons and non-tiered badges. Both were initially fixed in WotLK, before they fucked up with progression and reinstated the badge gear with a vengeance.
    doing all dungeons as speed runs aoe fests with little to no though started there 2.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    doing all dungeons as speed runs aoe fests with little to no though started there 2.
    Yeah, no. Even comparing both is ridiculous.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    doing all dungeons as speed runs aoe fests with little to no though started there 2.
    That's kinda difficult when 2/3 of tanks are unable to effectively AoE tank and only a select few specs are actually capable of AoE dps.
    If you want to argue "well, it's possible", then that already existed in Classic as well because there you could do it, too.

    In TBC, this strat requires a specific comp, in Wotlk, virtually any comp that has a tank, healer and 3 dps is capable of doing it.
    To me, this a world of difference, because one has pretty stringent requirements to pull off, whereas in Wotlk it's basically the MO of the game.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's kinda difficult when 2/3 of tanks are unable to effectively AoE tank and only a select few specs are actually capable of AoE dps.
    If you want to argue "well, it's possible", then that already existed in Classic as well because there you could do it, too.

    In TBC, this strat requires a specific comp, in Wotlk, virtually any comp that has a tank, healer and 3 dps is capable of doing it.
    To me, this a world of difference, because one has pretty stringent requirements to pull off, whereas in Wotlk it's basically the MO of the game.
    The tank does not need to tank the mobs that are being kited, the tank only needs to tank that doesent get slowed/ kited and so all tanks can join in....

    I done it as a druid and i seen paladins tank it too, sadly the warrior tanks seems to have become a extinct race but i fairly sure they can do it 2.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    The tank does not need to tank the mobs that are being kited, the tank only needs to tank that doesent get slowed/ kited and so all tanks can join in....

    I done it as a druid and i seen paladins tank it too, sadly the warrior tanks seems to have become a extinct race but i fairly sure they can do it 2.
    Okay, that requires
    (1) Packs without a significant amount of ranged mobs
    (2) an AoE slow (which only 3-4 classes can provide, with varying effectiveness)
    (3) a Tank actually capable of kiting

    Meanwhile in Wotlk, you need none of those things, because a Tank holds AoE threat anyway, you don't need to kite because mobs don't as hard and the skill cap on the tank is significantly lower because all the tank has to do is to spam their AoE threat button.

    The strat that you describe was also possible in Classic by the way, this is nothing specific about TBC.
    Heck, it was even easier in Classic because AoE was uncapped.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Notice how the undying and immortal achievements exist only for naxx 2.0. Because they knew it was hilariously easy. Those achievements never existed for a raid before or after naxx 2.0. You ever wonder why? Because no raid has ever been the that easy. You could legit go the entire raid without a single death in the entire raid. What other raid can you say that about?
    Tribute to Immortality: "Am I a joke to you?"

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