1. #1

    How should Thrall, Garrosh and Vol'jin have dealt with Sylvanas

    What attitude and potential measures should Thrall or his successors have adopted toward the Forsaken and especiallt Sylvanas Windrunner given the shady, underhanded and cruel nature of the Forsaken, as well as their lack of honor and their willingness to use very pragmatic and dirty means and do very odious things that have nothing to envy to the Old Horde ?

    What should Thrall have done other than just letting Kor'kron in the Undercity after Putress' betrayal at the Wrathgate and the discovery of the Blight and experiments made by the Forsaken inside the Undercity ? How should Garrosh or Vol'jin have reacted to Sylvanas' use of Val'kyrs and the fact that she used the Blight on Gilneas, Southshore and other locations in Lordaeron ?
    How would they have reacted to the Sludge Fields at Hillsbrad Foothills ?

    Shouldn't have they tried to find a potential replacement to Sylvanas already ?

  2. #2
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    The smart thing to do would have been to use that much-vaunted spy network to figure out what Sylvanas and the apothecaries were up to, especially after the Wrathgate incident. The Shattered Hand are supposed to be the Horde's best and brightest spies, in the same vein as SI:7 for Stormwind (and later, the Alliance as a whole); surely a few trolls loyal to Thrall/Garrosh/Vol'jin could sneak into the Undercity and get evidence necessary to show what Sylvanas was up to; it's not like the Undercity is hurting for dark corners and crevices to hide in.

    By the time Sylvanas began employing the Blight every time things got a little too inconvenient for her liking, and used the Val'kyr to forcibly raise new soldiers, Garrosh should have had a mountain of evidence on hand and the Shattered Hand should have already been formenting dissent to incite a coup, likely from the same people who later formed the Desolate Council as Sylvanas ruled from Orgrimmar. That way Garrosh wouldn't have to keep giving Sylvanas empty warnings despite knowing he could only go so far since he still needed her forces active in the Eastern Kingdoms--a Desolate Council loyal to this hypothetical, smarter, more savvy Garrosh would provide him with more control over what happened in the Eastern Kingdoms and could very well have caused a very different outcome to the theaters of war in the north, keeping the Alliance pinned south of the Thandol Span in the Eastern Kingdoms (freeing him up to focus on keeping the Alliance in Kalimdor confined to the northwest).
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  3. #3
    We don't need to guess what they would've done, since we see what they did. Thrall took the Forsaken on as an extra area of influence in the Eastern Kingdoms requiring little investment and whom he didn't oversee. Given that he was barely keeping his own people going on handouts and was turning a somewhat blindeye to the slave gladiatorial rings, it's not surprising that he only actually put resources into the Kor'kron occupation of the Undercity after what the Forsaken were devising grew too big to ignore at the Wrathgate. He had neither the capacity or the motive to do it.

    Garrosh was the one who took the most measures against Sylvanas, but his weren't the most effective and couldn't be since he was also reliant on the Forsaken for military utility on the EK front considering that the blood elves were useless making the undead the only tool he had to advance his interests there. While the Kor'kron could keep Sylvanas from openly betraying him so long as he was powerful enough since they had the city under lock and key, he didn't have the materials to expend on bringing her to heel and to do so would jeopardize their use against the Alliance which is the actual reason he got them in for in the first place. It doesn't help that Cromush, the commissar he had looking over her quickly became co-opted by Sylvanas. In the end it was only the measures Thrall put in with the Kor'kron oversight that delayed Sylvanas turning on him for as long as she did.

    Vol'jin is a non-factor. He rules a primitive people who were effectivelly suppressed by a single batallion of Kor'kron, in charge of a Horde where every major military force except the Forsaken had just mangled itself in a civil war. While he doesn't trust Sylvanas on a personal level, the Forsaken are leagues more powerful than the Darkspear and she never actually did anything against him either, as well as being on another continent, minding her own business. The Darkspear and Forsaken have zero issues with one another and Vol'jin's sole reference to the Val'kyr is without any moral issue, given that he threatens the Alliance player with them.

    What should they have done if they wanted to get rid of her? Like @Thage says, the most effective way is from Edge of Night. Thrall never had a chance due to logistical issues. Garrosh hypes up the Forsaken as much as he does by playing into their Lordaeronian heritage and their issues with Gilneas and his form of hands on leadership is popular. We know that the pre-BTS Forsaken have few issues turning on Sylvanas provided they've more to gain than to lose. Working on a more amicable dynamic while getting across that the main issue keeping the Horde from properly helping them out is Sylvanas would be part of it, but the demographic wouldn't be the same as the Desolate Council - the Desolate Council were saddo civilians who's only power came from Sylvanas being absent, the ideal demographic for a coup would be the generals. At the time this takes place Sylvanas doesn't actually have a close bond with any of them except Nathanos, who's in the process of falling apart. Hell, supporting Godfrey might be a way to get it done, since Godfrey was if anything harsher on Gilneas and so better suited Garrosh's war goals, on top of not caring about Forsaken casualties. More realistically, Executors would do the trick.

    The overriding thing is that the Horde spent its entire runtime until BFA as a political entity there to advance its geopolitical goals, hamstrung by its component powers having very different ideas of what those are. Wasting your time morally policing your ally on values you barely uphold anyway is counterproductive when they do it in a corner of the world you're not actively involved in and you need their help.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-27 at 05:14 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    There was nothing they could do. Sylvanas could have told them to fuck off and they would have to just take it. Are they going to attack the Forsaken? No, because there's only one way to get there and that's by sea. Even if they did send an army to attack them the alliance would see this and be like oh hey the horde sent most of their army across the sea, lets that all there shit.

  5. #5
    Take a look at the racial leaders at those times.

    Orc Racial Leader - Male
    Troll Racial Leader - Male
    Tauren Racial Leader - Male
    Blood Elves Racial Leader - Male
    Forsaken Racial Leader - [I]Female[/I]

    No decisive action due to Plot Armor privilege, until now that is. These last two expansions we saw the addition of Talanji, Mayla. and Thalyssra as current leaders of their respective races along with the existence of Calia With this, Sylvanas may be killed off, unless they pull a redemption arc/Kerrigan/War Crimes + Time Travel: Electric Boogaloo; Pick your poison.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    There was nothing they could do. Sylvanas could have told them to fuck off and they would have to just take it. Are they going to attack the Forsaken? No, because there's only one way to get there and that's by sea. Even if they did send an army to attack them the alliance would see this and be like oh hey the horde sent most of their army across the sea, lets that all there shit.
    What is Siege of Orgrimmar? Blood Elves and Forsaken sailed across the sea to attack the orcs since Garrosh pretty much told every non-orc to fuck off and die.
    Last edited by CrittenMitten; 2021-06-27 at 06:09 PM.

  6. #6
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    What you mean dealt? they could not do much because there was nothing much she was doing, they could not just execute her and dismiss a powerful stronghold in the Easter kingdoms.

    Thrall was lazy and let everyone loose, Garrosh was the only one who did something putting her in check, and it was because of him she didn't do nothing more nasty.

    And vol'jin was mind controlled on coke to put the worst option of all into the position that hold all power, and nobody contested his sanity.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Clone's Avatar
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    Thrall should have set up a system of checks on Sylvanas's government.

  8. #8
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    There was nothing they could do. Sylvanas could have told them to fuck off and they would have to just take it. Are they going to attack the Forsaken? No, because there's only one way to get there and that's by sea. Even if they did send an army to attack them the alliance would see this and be like oh hey the horde sent most of their army across the sea, lets that all there shit.
    Well, that was before portals started to become cheaper than bus tickets. The times, they really are a-changin'
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  9. #9
    They should have done nothing because Sylvanas did nothing wrong. Defeating the Alliance for good should be the highest goal for any Horde member.

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