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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    exactly this.

    shitty writing is shitty writing. Blizzards (and Metzens) days are over since many many years. Better not think about lore after MoP. in my head i differ 2 types of lore: the original one and everything that starts with/after MoP.

    story and lore in wow is dead anyways when you look at all that shit story they telling. the good writers and the creators of the original and good lore are long gone.

    so, as the quoted poster advised: best method is, to not think about it.
    I mean let's not act as if Metzen was much different. It's just that in his coked-up fever dreams he saw the setting as some 90's power metal trip where continuity was for losers and swooned over Thrall instead of the current writers thinking about how many ham-fisted moral lessons they can cram in the story while swooning over Sylvanas or Anduin and thinking continuity is for losers.

    Metzen presided over TBC and Cata, and WoD was also very much something he greenlit. We still have one and a half expansion of shit lore to go before we equal his track record.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Okay, so is Sargeras not a titan now or what?
    Sargeras was always a Titan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    What do you mean Death has zero lore behind it? Where have you been in the past half a year?
    The whole point of this expansion is to flesh out the lore behind Death even more.
    Look at the Broker diary pages now. It just gets more in-depth with every patch.
    That's the problem! It's only been a thing for the past half a year. There was zero lore for the Jailer before that. The only lore we have about him now months after Shadowlands has released, is in the form of awful storytelling in this MMO. They've shown time and time again that they CANNOT flesh out characters in this game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean let's not act as if Metzen was much different. It's just that in his coked-up fever dreams he saw the setting as some 90's power metal trip where continuity was for losers and swooned over Thrall instead of the current writers thinking about how many ham-fisted moral lessons they can cram in the story while swooning over Sylvanas or Anduin and thinking continuity is for losers.

    Metzen presided over TBC and Cata, and WoD was also very much something he greenlit. We still have one and a half expansion of shit lore to go before we equal his track record.
    Metzen was gone from the WoW writing team long before WoD came around. That was Kosak's time. And tbh outside of WoD Kosak wasn't bad. He managed to build a nice world out of MoP without destroying the entire lore.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Sargeras was always a Titan.



    That's the problem! It's only been a thing for the past half a year. There was zero lore for the Jailer before that. The only lore we have about him now months after Shadowlands has released, is in the form of awful storytelling in this MMO. They've shown time and time again that they CANNOT flesh out characters in this game.
    So if the Chronicles are written from Titan PoV and Sargeras is a Titan then what happened to Sargeras is canon, right?

    Why is it a problem?
    Can they not come up with new stuff?
    Pandaria was brand new, Lei Shen was brand new, the Sha and Y'shaarj was brand new, even Garrosh was brand new.

    Is it hard for you to accept that a previously completly unexplored cosmic place like the realm of Death has characters in it that the mortals are unfamiliar with?
    Should Thrall be the de-facto leader of the universe and we can call it a day?
    What kind of world are you living in?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    That would imply that this was all planned from all the way back then which is impossible.
    Of course not it's was probably like hey let's leave a hint now so we can expand later...I mean wow could of EASILY flopped back then and warcraft could of ended in 2004...it's a very common storytelling strategy especially for stuff that is told for years down the line

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    So if the Chronicles are written from Titan PoV and Sargeras is a Titan then what happened to Sargeras is canon, right?
    Yes? That doesn't mean it's not a retcon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Why is it a problem?
    Can they not come up with new stuff?
    Pandaria was brand new, Lei Shen was brand new, the Sha and Y'shaarj was brand new, even Garrosh was brand new.
    None of these messed with the old lore. Not the way the new lore does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Is it hard for you to accept that a previously completly unexplored cosmic place like the realm of Death has characters in it that the mortals are unfamiliar with?
    Should Thrall be the de-facto leader of the universe and we can call it a day?
    What kind of world are you living in?
    Thankfully in a world where most people don't like lazy lore.

  6. #46
    Were they, though? I thought the thing was the dreadlords stole the runeblade and helmet from the Runecarver to be used by the Burning Legion. Even as 5D chess as they like to be, at the time they were doing that for the Burning Legion, not the Jailer. I don't even think the Jailer was loose or the Runecarver under his control yet at that time. The Jailer's plans didn't really start until Cataclysm.

    Mostly speculation that I expect clarified at least somewhat by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Yes? That doesn't mean it's not a retcon?

    None of these messed with the old lore. Not the way the new lore does.



    Thankfully in a world where most people don't like lazy lore.
    What retcon? That the Dreadlords made Sargeras turn? Did they not?

    Except, Lei Shen is literally the reason why the southern part of Kalimdor is a wasteland.
    Aman'thul plucking out Y'shaarj is literally the Well of Eternity which is like probably your favourite Warcraft story point based on your age and arguments.

    You say that, but then act like your world is the CW DC series. I'd take you for a Batwoman fan for sure.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Metzen was gone from the WoW writing team long before WoD came around. That was Kosak's time. And tbh outside of WoD Kosak wasn't bad. He managed to build a nice world out of MoP without destroying the entire lore.
    Didn't Metzen leave in Legion, and remain an influential figure until then? If memory serves the opening BFA cinematic was the last thing he worked on. Even if we discount WoD, that means the current crop is responsible for BfA and the bad parts of Shadowlands, so that still leaves old Metzen the guy who did TBC and Cata.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    So Nerzhul at that time was an asset to the Jailor, right?
    And he also considered Arthas his asset.
    But the Dreadlords were also an asset to Denathrius, who was an asset to the jailor.
    But they tried to stop Arthas from reaching the Lich King's helm.

    So the jailor's asset were fighting against eachother.
    Actually the whole campaign is about the Jailor's assets infighting.

    Is that correct?


    Mate, if you EVER DARE to "dig into" Shadowlands lore, you will find HUUUUUGE disappointment.

    something like this: (from my earlier post on mmo forum)

    "5. Shadowlands story is worse of the worst!
    Best example for that would be "Limbo" WQ in Bastion.
    TLDR: If you die > you go to shadowlands > where you live another life > if you die there, you're DED.
    But then again... if LK calls you back, you have to answer the call.
    If you're elemental, you go to another Shadowlands.
    If you're demon, you go to yet ANOTHER ANOTHER Shadowlands.
    If you're mantd, you go back to life, because.... reasons....
    If you're "wild god or whatever "higher" being" - you go to Ardenweald, where you wait for God knows what to be reborn. lol...

    And that's the ruckus just from 1 world quest.

    Not to mention retarded reasons why Sylvanas works for the Jailer and Kel'Thuzad. The main "big baddies" who destroyed her life, her city, her people, her everything.. BUT SHE STILL HATES ARTHAS FOR DOING SO! :O"

    Sylvanas also working for Jailer now, lol...

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    "5. Shadowlands story is worse of the worst!
    Best example for that would be "Limbo" WQ in Bastion.
    TLDR: If you die > you go to shadowlands > where you live another life > if you die there, you're DED.
    But then again... if LK calls you back, you have to answer the call.
    If you're elemental, you go to another Shadowlands.
    If you're demon, you go to yet ANOTHER ANOTHER Shadowlands.
    If you're mantd, you go back to life, because.... reasons....
    If you're "wild god or whatever "higher" being" - you go to Ardenweald, where you wait for God knows what to be reborn. lol...


    Sylvanas also working for Jailer now, lol...
    Most of these are already established lore. We already knew that demons/elementals/basically anything non-mortal return to their "home plane" upon death.

    The Mantid can return to life because he was fighting a necromancer. To not disrupt the balance between life and death he is granted a chance to kill the necromancer.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    The Mantid can return to life because he was fighting a necromancer. To not disrupt the balance between life and death he is granted a chance to kill the necromancer.


    Lololol.... So... if you die, you go to the Shadowlands.... and if you die there you're DED.

    AH... but if you're a mantid fighting some Necromancer, then you're allowed to go back.

    But ALSO! If you're a DK getting called back by the Lich King- you may as well go back!


    it's just beyond stupid and beyond bad.

    They are literally saying that death is death.... but not a death..... whenever they try to make something complex- they fail miserably.

  12. #52
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    So Nerzhul at that time was an asset to the Jailor, right?
    And he also considered Arthas his asset.
    But the Dreadlords were also an asset to Denathrius, who was an asset to the jailor.
    But they tried to stop Arthas from reaching the Lich King's helm.

    So the jailor's asset were fighting against eachother.
    Actually the whole campaign is about the Jailor's assets infighting.

    Is that correct?
    i mean yeah, but the civil war was literally the queens assets fighting against each other.

  13. #53
    Just wait until we find out that the dreadlords had been secretly working for the 7th cosmic force all along!..


    We don't think flying makes questing quicker. We think it makes it trivial. There is a difference. Source
    How does flying trivialise this quest?
    Cherry picking data, have a read.

  14. #54
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Lololol.... So... if you die, you go to the Shadowlands.... and if you die there you're DED.

    AH... but if you're a mantid fighting some Necromancer, then you're allowed to go back.

    But ALSO! If you're a DK getting called back by the Lich King- you may as well go back!


    it's just beyond stupid and beyond bad.

    They are literally saying that death is death.... but not a death..... whenever they try to make something complex- they fail miserably.
    what?
    how is that beyond stupid?
    if you die you go to the shadowlands, but if you are ressurected your soul returns to the realm of the living
    how is that dumb?

    are you REALLY upset that undead exist in wow, that "death is not death cause you can just come back to life"

  15. #55
    Just more convoluted crap.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Lololol.... So... if you die, you go to the Shadowlands.... and if you die there you're DED.

    AH... but if you're a mantid fighting some Necromancer, then you're allowed to go back.

    But ALSO! If you're a DK getting called back by the Lich King- you may as well go back!


    it's just beyond stupid and beyond bad.

    They are literally saying that death is death.... but not a death..... whenever they try to make something complex- they fail miserably.
    it's not really hard to grasp. Returning the Mantid back to life is less upsetting to the balance than a necromancer running rampant.

    Calls by Val'kyr/Lich King has to be honored in the rule book of the shadowlands, and since the Kyrian have a hardon for rules, they follow.

  17. #57
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    What retcon? That the Dreadlords made Sargeras turn? Did they not?
    They did not. That was retconned by the Chronicals. Sargeras encountered a corrupted nascent titan soul planet and it chilled him to his core. He destroyed it, then returned to the Pantheon as a being wholly changed by fear of what he had witnessed. The other titans freaked out at Sargeras for "aborting" a nascent titan, unable to understand how anything could warrant murdering one of their kin - of course, they were entirely ignorant of the void at the time. They get in a nasty fight and Sargeras kills them all. Now completely traumatized and messed up, he sets out to free the demons he had been imprisoning and begins to build an army to wipe out all of creation so that the corruption he encountered could never gain a foothold in reality. The dreadlords aren't involved until after these things occur - as far as we've been told anyway.
    Last edited by Oneirophobia; 2021-06-28 at 03:34 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    They did not. That was retconned by the Chronicals. Sargeras encountered a corrupted nascent titan soul planet and it chilled him to his core. He destroyed it, then returned to the Pantheon as a being wholly changed by fear of what he had witnessed. The other titans freaked out at Sargeras for "aborting" a nascent titan, unable to understand how anything could warrant murdering one of their kin - of course, they were entirely ignorant of the void at the time. They get in a nasty fight and Sargeras kills them all. Now completely traumatized and messed up, he sets out to free the demons he had been imprisoning and begins to build an army to wipe out all of creation so that the corruption he encountered could never gain a foothold in reality. The dreadlords aren't involved until after these things occur - as far as we've been told anyway.
    That corrupted Titan was caused by the Dreadlords, or at least they helped the Old Gods in it. They were the ones that told Sargeras the Void Lords were sending out Old Gods to corrupt Titan soul's to create a Void Titan.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    That corrupted Titan was caused by the Dreadlords, or at least they helped the Old Gods in it. They were the ones that told Sargeras the Void Lords were sending out Old Gods to corrupt Titan soul's to create a Void Titan.
    which wasnt a lie or manipulation tho. the void lords did just that, as proven by the 5 old gods we had on azeroth.
    fact remains, sargeras went apeshit bc he thought a void titan was a horrible monstrosity that should never exist

    on topic: OP, dont even try.
    trying to make sense of the "lore" we have going on now is literally impossible, if you take more than the last 2 xpacs into account. anything older than that, and especially something as old as WC3, doesnt make sense in any way anymore (or gets retconned, if they bother)
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    it's not really hard to grasp. Returning the Mantid back to life is less upsetting to the balance than a necromancer running rampant.

    Calls by Val'kyr/Lich King has to be honored in the rule book of the shadowlands, and since the Kyrian have a hardon for rules, they follow.


    lol... and then you have Afterlife: Bastion xD

    So, call by Val'kyr/LK (Just an Titan Watcher's creation... so lesser creation of lesser being compared to "leaders" of the covenants) can break Shadowland "rules".


    I won't even reply anymore to die-hard fanboys trying to defend the abomination of lore we have today.

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