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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Where in that statement does it say to use WoW's netcode? It just says get better netcode.

    Even if it did though, WoW's netcode is still better than FFXIV's, even if you think it's "trash," it would still be an improvement to what FFXIV has now.
    I actually look at context before replying.

    Aside from polish, I fail to see what FF14 could possibly take from WoW that would make it a better game without losing significant aspects of what makes the game good. Homogenization of classes by making them all coked out damage cannons? Specs and talents that cause constant imbalance? Obtuse gearing? Temporary power systems? Scrapping all content three months after it comes out?
    This was a response to a response to this.

    So one guy said:

    > I fail to see what FF14 could possibly take from WoW that would make it a better game
    the other replied:
    >[*]Better netcode (stop developing a global game based on JP geography)
    and then my reply was above.

    And no, wow netcode is not improvement over xiv, both codes are bad but wow despite having much larger server infrastructure barely can handle 40+ people in one place. That would be a downgrade in my dictionary.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    I actually look at context before replying.
    Ooo, snarky, but fair.

    This was a response to a response to this.

    So one guy said:

    > I fail to see what FF14 could possibly take from WoW that would make it a better game
    the other replied:
    >[*]Better netcode (stop developing a global game based on JP geography)
    and then my reply was above.

    And no, wow netcode is not improvement over xiv, both codes are bad but wow despite having much larger server infrastructure barely can handle 40+ people in one place. That would be a downgrade in my dictionary.
    In the instances that truly matter in FFXIV, why would it need to handle 40+ people flawlessly? Small party content is 4 people, Large party content is only 8 and Alliance Raids are only 24.

    The netcode in FFXIV currently forces things like the 0.5 second server tick, which allows things like slide casting, monster telegraph and actual damage component of the ability to be unsynced, and inconsistent application of double weaving oGCD skills because of this forced server tick recognition being on top of the ping being relatively high because of server location.

    WoW's netcode, which you say can't handle 40+ people, would still allow FFXIV combat to behave a bit more fluidly in the parts of the game where the game play is most affected. People RP'ing or otherwise being silly/ just having fun in a city experience some input lag and such isn't THAT big of a deal when compared to the parts of the game where that kind of thing actually impacts success or failure and therefore enjoyment of that portion of the game.

    Different priorities I guess.

    I DO see your point, but I don't see the downside the same way you do.

  3. #223
    I don't enjoy the lack of a couple of minor, in a way, features.

    a) I can't see the levels per zone. As a returner after 6 years that is trying to level an alt job just to refresh my memory on things, I find it very annoying. Unless there is a button to press somewhere for that, in which case feel free to point it to me and laugh at me!
    b) no personal dps meter within the game and allowed by TOS. I just want to see how my performance improves with levels, gear and practice, that's all. ESO does it best in that regard IMO, but I wouldn't object to a strictly personal meter within the game, either.

    PvP being an afterthought is probably my biggest issue though and the main reason I left the game back at the beginning of the first expansion, so lets see how long I last this time.

  4. #224
    b) no personal dps meter within the game and allowed by TOS. I just want to see how my performance improves with levels, gear and practice, that's all. ESO does it best in that regard IMO, but I wouldn't object to a strictly personal meter within the game, either.
    You can get the popular DPS addon if you want but Square will come down on you if you then use it to attack other people. If you just use it to judge your own performance you're fine. Pretty much every end-game streamer who does the raids that I've watched are all using it and showing it on stream.

    I don't necessarily see the point of zone levels being visible but one thing I would like is a list of which FATEs you should do at what level if you're leveling an alternative job. I started leveling a Gladiator and finished my roulettes at early level and wanted to do FATEs and had to go look up online where I should go because it's not clear in the game. I guess having zone levels also would solve this now that I think about it, since the FATEs are roughly the level of that zone.

    You can see the level of the FATE once you're actually in the zone but if you're chilling in your capital and decide where to go for what FATE, the game does not tell you.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    You can get the popular DPS addon if you want but Square will come down on you if you then use it to attack other people. If you just use it to judge your own performance you're fine. Pretty much every end-game streamer who does the raids that I've watched are all using it and showing it on stream.

    I don't necessarily see the point of zone levels being visible but one thing I would like is a list of which FATEs you should do at what level if you're leveling an alternative job. I started leveling a Gladiator and finished my roulettes at early level and wanted to do FATEs and had to go look up online where I should go because it's not clear in the game. I guess having zone levels also would solve this now that I think about it, since the FATEs are roughly the level of that zone.

    You can see the level of the FATE once you're actually in the zone but if you're chilling in your capital and decide where to go for what FATE, the game does not tell you.
    I will check about that addon, cheers. As I said, I have no intention to use it against others, never did in any MMO I have played for 15 years.

    As for the zone levels, the way I found to get around it (pre-50) is to check the mobs at any of the hunting logs and then google their location within their zone (simply because zones have a range of levels). I mean, it kind of solves the issue, but in a convoluted way IMO.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    I don't enjoy the lack of a couple of minor, in a way, features.

    a) I can't see the levels per zone. As a returner after 6 years that is trying to level an alt job just to refresh my memory on things, I find it very annoying. Unless there is a button to press somewhere for that, in which case feel free to point it to me and laugh at me!
    See below.

    PvP being an afterthought is probably my biggest issue though and the main reason I left the game back at the beginning of the first expansion, so lets see how long I last this time.
    Yeah PvP is definitely not the focus of this game, which for me is great because I do not like PvP and that means they're spending less resources and time developing content and balancing a part of the game that I care nothing about. But, for those like you who really like, it's obviously not such a great thing.

    I wouldn't mind them adding resources to the game that could focus on PvP related things to keep those like you more interested in trying and playing more long term, because more players is obviously better, but not at the cost of their PvE content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    I guess having zone levels also would solve this now that I think about it, since the FATEs are roughly the level of that zone.

    You can see the level of the FATE once you're actually in the zone but if you're chilling in your capital and decide where to go for what FATE, the game does not tell you.
    The issue with zone levels is that the ranges would be pretty huge for many of them and therefore not all that helpful for what you're describing, because even the "starting" zones have monster levels ranging from 1 to 20 or even higher because they're split up based on when you get there in the story, at least for the ARR 1-50 zones. i.e. The first area you get to could be monsters from 1-5 and a connected area within that same zone could have monsters level 20-40 or something. The Shroud is particularly bad about this. For the expansions zones it's much easier because the leveling range is much tighter and follows in step with the zone progression of the story.

    I see your point though. I've never seen it as much of an issue, because it's easy enough to search online, but having that information available in game would be much more convenient.

    That said, as @Drindorai stated, you can look at the map and hover over a FATE when you're in a zone and see what level it is to get a good zone level gauge. It's not ideal, as you have to be in the zone to see it, but it's better than nothing...I guess. As long as you're within ~2-3 levels of the FATE it should provide adequate xp. The issue with FATEs anymore though is that with xp grinding options like Squadrons, Palace of the Dead, Heaven on High and Trusts (in Shadowbringers) FATEs are practically dead most of the time, especially in Stormblood and Shadowbringers zones. At least in my experience.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Because it's subjective. Whenever we say anything is "required" in a game, we mean "Required to have fun", so there is going to be a subjective element to it as what is fun is subjective. "Easily understood" is also subjective. That's why this is pointless. I can point to dozens of mechanics and you can say "Well I can do that without a mod" and it really becomes totally pointless. You don't care about stun/interrupt addons, for example, and I've been in guilds that required them because of the difference they make, and nearly everyone seriously doing pvp uses them. Can you TECHNICALLY do everything without them? Sure, but it is dishonest to pretend that the game is not designed around the level of information and reaction time that addons enable, even if using them is not TECHNICALLY required in fringe cases where people want to make the game significantly harder for themselves.
    Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it's irrelevant or without benefit to discuss though. If you genuinely have examples of mechanics that were super obtuse without addons I'd love to hear them, because like I said I just genuinely can't think of any, so I'm curious where the floor is. I can easily think of examples in FF14, which again was my original point. If you don't want to then no need to respond to it, but again I will treat it as an admission that I am right (if that matters to you at all).

    Welcome to WoW? These problems are more prevalent in mid-range guilds. That's where the toxicity problem is in general. At high levels, there's an assumption that since you can do your job you don't need to be managed.
    Very true, I am just surprised you stuck around in that environment knowing what I know about your personality. I assume there are other reasons you stayed (friends, schedule, skill level, etc.). No need to respond unless you wanted to clarify the reasons.

    I think that "The game should run better" isn't really a valid thing to say we should take from WoW. That's not a WoW feature.
    Netcode is a feature of the game. It's built in and designed in game. WoWs netcode makes the game play buttery smooth in almost all situations to the point that if I get stuck on a AUS server with 240 ping it plays just a hair worse thant FF14 with 120 ping. I live US EST. That's a whole other can of worms though why my ping is 120 with them and any other game with servers in San Jose doesn't go over 90. I'd kill for some US EST based servers, but not Montreal please. I know people had tons of issues there (even if I didn't).

    Game design isn't modular. You can't just say you want more synergy and depth (like WoW) and pretend the rest of WoWs class design doesn't exist. WoW's class design paradigm also causes terrible balance, a reliance on RNG elements, homogenization, etc.. If those problems could be easily sliced off the WoW design paradigm, the WoW team would have fixed it years ago.
    • Top to bottom FF14 has about a 15% differential in rDPS with no outliers in the last tier across 10 DPS jobs. I won't bother using aDPS.
    • Top to bottom WoW has about a 42% differential in DPS with 3 major outliers in Castle Nathria in Mythic across 24 DPS specs.
    • Top to bottom WoW has about a 19% differential in DPS in Castle Nathria in Mythic across 21 DPS specs. The difference being 3 outlier specs, 2 of which are in GROSS need of buffs as they're completely unplayable (actual count of parses is barely in the hundreds, let alone thousands), and one is significantly overperforming.

    Looking at this I would wholeheartedly agree that this is terrible balance, but let's consider a few points first though. WoW has over double the amount of DPS jobs as FF14. It's gearing model is incredibly more complex with easily more than triple the number of variance points and yet they get within less than 5% of FF14 if we just remove or improve the 3 outliers? Not only this, but this is at the highest level, it gets closer if we measure by median score.

    Fixing numbers is easy. It's a plug and play equation on their end. I genuinely don't know why they don't, but I do know the knobs are there and do work. Fixing the feeling of how a class/job plays though is the challenging piece, which easily explains the bottom 2 though.

    Not a WoW feature. "Make things better" isn't a feature from another game.
    WoW tank/healer paradigms have much faster pace and more responsibility than FF14. FF14 tanks are super boring, and FF14 healers just hold down a DPS button 95% of the fight (this is not hyperbole, this is my static's GCD usage for one of the savage fights, 13 healing GCDs between 2 healers cast out of 276 GCDs cast total.

    I don't really know what this means.
    Scalable content? It means to have content flex across player types and be able to be used repeatedly. PoD/HoH is a good example (RIPE with opportunities for improvement). It has content for players who want something easy (can group), and it has content for players who want something challenging (soloing). Granted this example isn't perfect because there's a lot of little gaps, but the something like Eureka that wasn't just braindead zerg fests or gathering and AOEing down mobs who don't really fight back. That's fine that the content exists, but it would have been nice to have more challenging features built into it that would attract savage player types to it.

    This also is not really a WoW feature, because you aren't asking for the WoW raid model.
    That's mostly a concession. I'd actually prefer WoWs raid model. I love the way storming a place and moving about and having SOME agency over order of boss fights, but I fully support just zoning in a la Trial of the Crusader like FF14's been doing every expansion (note ARR was different). If we're nitpicking I'd really love to see "savage" versions of the 24 mans (but retuned for like 8 man teams) because I don't actually enjoy large party size raid content. It'll feed some more mid core content while reusing assets and give that feeling back.

    Not a WoW feature.
    A very common outcome or mechanic in WoW raids.

    If you mean a better way to tie announcements to abilities without handicapping them, sure. If you mean more ability to automate combat, god no.
    Let people who want 1-2-3's in a single button press have it. Fix the spell queuing with macros, but I do agree against fully automating.

    Not interested in RNG.
    Fair enough.

    I don't disagree that FF14 has homogenization issues with tanks and healers, but borrowing from an even more homogenized game doesn't solve that.
    Agreed, that's why I separated it from the bullet list. This is more a wishlist item.

    Customization like this is bad, bad news for a game like this. It causes nothing but trouble, as we can see in WoW where it is a constant source of pain and contention. It's a classic "good idea on paper".
    I'm ok with a little bit worse balance for a little bit more interesting gameplay decisions. I understand that some people aren't, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss it or make it seem like it's the end of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    WoW netcode is TRASH! There are way better games to pull netcode from. Definitely not from WoW.
    Examples of games with better netcode? Not saying you're wrong merely curious if I've played them or not (TO BE FAIR almost every other game has great netcode, FF14 is the outlier here) and my previous example of other JP dev's fighting games.

  8. #228
    Top complaint:

    - The inventory and "bank" system is just...what the fuck. Like I never thought I'd have said this, but WoW did something right by just having a bank vault on the wall and click to enter it.

    Having to sift through multiple retainers is annoying as hell. Also monetizing the inventory system is a huge disappointment

    The rest:

    - Cutscenes. There are way too many. I understand they get toned down later on, but jesus. Praetorium cutscenes are just ridiculous.

    - The vast number of quests that "unlock" stuff (quests with the + symbol).

    - Boss fights boring so far.

    - Switched to caster, because the flank/rear mechanic for melee classes is very annoying.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewalrus2010 View Post
    Switched to caster, because the flank/rear mechanic for melee classes is very annoying.
    Positionals seem to be a very love-or-hate thing with players.

    Some people say that they love it because it makes melee feel more engaging.

    Me, I actually get more bored with heavy positionals. (Read: Monk) It ends up feeling like this really trivial thing that you just have to pay attention to forever, and it'll actually make me feel bored and sleepy after a while. Rear, flank, rear, flank, rear, rear, flank, flank...it's like someone asking you to count how many ticks of a second hand go by on a clock.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Positionals seem to be a very love-or-hate thing with players.

    Some people say that they love it because it makes melee feel more engaging.

    Me, I actually get more bored with heavy positionals. (Read: Monk) It ends up feeling like this really trivial thing that you just have to pay attention to forever, and it'll actually make me feel bored and sleepy after a while. Rear, flank, rear, flank, rear, rear, flank, flank...it's like someone asking you to count how many ticks of a second hand go by on a clock.
    Oh for sure. I can definitely see why other people might like it. Just not my thing at all.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it's irrelevant or without benefit to discuss though. If you genuinely have examples of mechanics that were super obtuse without addons I'd love to hear them, because like I said I just genuinely can't think of any, so I'm curious where the floor is. I can easily think of examples in FF14, which again was my original point. If you don't want to then no need to respond to it, but again I will treat it as an admission that I am right (if that matters to you at all).



    Very true, I am just surprised you stuck around in that environment knowing what I know about your personality. I assume there are other reasons you stayed (friends, schedule, skill level, etc.). No need to respond unless you wanted to clarify the reasons.



    Netcode is a feature of the game. It's built in and designed in game. WoWs netcode makes the game play buttery smooth in almost all situations to the point that if I get stuck on a AUS server with 240 ping it plays just a hair worse thant FF14 with 120 ping. I live US EST. That's a whole other can of worms though why my ping is 120 with them and any other game with servers in San Jose doesn't go over 90. I'd kill for some US EST based servers, but not Montreal please. I know people had tons of issues there (even if I didn't).



    • Top to bottom FF14 has about a 15% differential in rDPS with no outliers in the last tier across 10 DPS jobs. I won't bother using aDPS.
    • Top to bottom WoW has about a 42% differential in DPS with 3 major outliers in Castle Nathria in Mythic across 24 DPS specs.
    • Top to bottom WoW has about a 19% differential in DPS in Castle Nathria in Mythic across 21 DPS specs. The difference being 3 outlier specs, 2 of which are in GROSS need of buffs as they're completely unplayable (actual count of parses is barely in the hundreds, let alone thousands), and one is significantly overperforming.

    Looking at this I would wholeheartedly agree that this is terrible balance, but let's consider a few points first though. WoW has over double the amount of DPS jobs as FF14. It's gearing model is incredibly more complex with easily more than triple the number of variance points and yet they get within less than 5% of FF14 if we just remove or improve the 3 outliers? Not only this, but this is at the highest level, it gets closer if we measure by median score.

    Fixing numbers is easy. It's a plug and play equation on their end. I genuinely don't know why they don't, but I do know the knobs are there and do work. Fixing the feeling of how a class/job plays though is the challenging piece, which easily explains the bottom 2 though.



    WoW tank/healer paradigms have much faster pace and more responsibility than FF14. FF14 tanks are super boring, and FF14 healers just hold down a DPS button 95% of the fight (this is not hyperbole, this is my static's GCD usage for one of the savage fights, 13 healing GCDs between 2 healers cast out of 276 GCDs cast total.



    Scalable content? It means to have content flex across player types and be able to be used repeatedly. PoD/HoH is a good example (RIPE with opportunities for improvement). It has content for players who want something easy (can group), and it has content for players who want something challenging (soloing). Granted this example isn't perfect because there's a lot of little gaps, but the something like Eureka that wasn't just braindead zerg fests or gathering and AOEing down mobs who don't really fight back. That's fine that the content exists, but it would have been nice to have more challenging features built into it that would attract savage player types to it.



    That's mostly a concession. I'd actually prefer WoWs raid model. I love the way storming a place and moving about and having SOME agency over order of boss fights, but I fully support just zoning in a la Trial of the Crusader like FF14's been doing every expansion (note ARR was different). If we're nitpicking I'd really love to see "savage" versions of the 24 mans (but retuned for like 8 man teams) because I don't actually enjoy large party size raid content. It'll feed some more mid core content while reusing assets and give that feeling back.



    A very common outcome or mechanic in WoW raids.



    Let people who want 1-2-3's in a single button press have it. Fix the spell queuing with macros, but I do agree against fully automating.



    Fair enough.



    Agreed, that's why I separated it from the bullet list. This is more a wishlist item.



    I'm ok with a little bit worse balance for a little bit more interesting gameplay decisions. I understand that some people aren't, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss it or make it seem like it's the end of the world.



    Examples of games with better netcode? Not saying you're wrong merely curious if I've played them or not (TO BE FAIR almost every other game has great netcode, FF14 is the outlier here) and my previous example of other JP dev's fighting games.
    My best example for where mods the needed is coordinating stubs and interrupts.

    I stuck around in toxic environments because I don’t have a solid enough schedule to go higher than that and wow pushes you to go as high as you can go.

    The reason I’m confused by your scalable content thing is because FF14 already has such an extensive amount of scaling compared to wow, so this is a weird thing to ask for IMO. Virtually all content scales. It sounds like what you are asking for is more hard modes, which is a different ask.

    I don’t think your dps comparisons are valid. Different specs perform differently at different levels of play. WoWs balance is all fucked up at the level of the average player, because it relies so heavily on meta knowledge to compete. Anyone with the “wrong” talents and gear is at an extreme disadvantage. The level of balance you are describing in wow is only when looking at players who get logged which is the players most likely to make the “right” meta choices. Look at the player with the wrong legendary and the wrong talents. He’s 50% behind the guy with the “right” stuff.

    GW2 has better better netcode than wow

    I also like the part of the raid wow model where the raid feels like a place, but as always there are side effects to that which are problematic and make me think that that model is best applied to other types of content.
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  12. #232
    The Lightbringer Ragnarocket's Avatar
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    The comment being made about the DPS classes being varied is fine for FF14 though...the classes are set to be at certain levels based on the amount of personal damage vs. utility they bring.

    The ranged DPS bring less damage but more utility (except Black Mage which brings literally nothing other than explosions) while the melee deal more damage with a bit less utility (admittedly also because they have to follow the boss around so they get more damage for that). In each category of damage dealer you have the greedier versions (BML/SAM/MCH) and the more utility oriented ones (RDM and DNC come to mind). It's planned out that way.
    “The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it.”

  13. #233
    Release resurrection being tied to your home crystal rather then a local crystal.
    Chocobo companion being timed.

  14. #234
    One thing I’ve come to be disappointed with is how homogenized the classes are now that I’ve leveled a few.

    They seem to be fundamentally 85% the same, for their role, and 50% the same overall, with different names for essentially the same thing.

    I remember hearing a lot about how each job really is unique, but they really aren’t that unique…

    Hope they fix that more in Endwalker.

  15. #235
    The Lightbringer Ragnarocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    One thing I’ve come to be disappointed with is how homogenized the classes are now that I’ve leveled a few.

    They seem to be fundamentally 85% the same, for their role, and 50% the same overall, with different names for essentially the same thing.

    I remember hearing a lot about how each job really is unique, but they really aren’t that unique…

    Hope they fix that more in Endwalker.
    What classes do you think feel similar out of curiosity? I feel like most of them feel vastly different myself so I’m interested in which ones you’ve done.
    “The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it.”

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Looking at this I would wholeheartedly agree that this is terrible balance, but let's consider a few points first though. WoW has over double the amount of DPS jobs as FF14. It's gearing model is incredibly more complex with easily more than triple the number of variance points and yet they get within less than 5% of FF14 if we just remove or improve the 3 outliers? Not only this, but this is at the highest level, it gets closer if we measure by median score.
    While I generally agree with all of your points and the thrust of your argument.

    I think it's important to point out some amount of FFXIV's variance is the built-in utility tax which wow explicitly does not do. There will always be some amount of variance between a BRD and a BLM because SE wants it to exist.
    Again not saying you're wrong or I disagree with you just that is a factor that needs to be considered when comparing /spec/job performance between the two games.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  17. #237
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    [*]Better netcode (stop developing a global game based on JP geography)
    You know what's really annoying about this?

    There is a XIV plugin/addon that fixes a big problem with the netcode that you can just use freely (Yoshi has said he does not care about addons, it's also not detectable or bannable unless you tell people in chat), but the devs don't care to fix the real underlying problem because when they design the game they don't care about EU or NA players. Only JP who all live on a tiny island next to DC with 10 ping.

    XIV has a built in 500ms 2nd GCD for instants which is fine because it stops you spamming 30 weaving, however your ping gets added on to this number artificially because the game logic is so bad and dumb. So if you have 100 ping, the gcd becomes 600ms and now you can't double weave reliably. If you have like 150 ping it's basically impossible. This delay is either missed/or created by SE , that's how the addon is able to fix the 'bug', because it's an artificial problem not one regarding speed of light/actual ping.

    All eastern Devs are like this. They don't care about netcode, optimization or better combat system mechanic like LEEWAY because everyone lives in same 5 tents around server farm in SK or JP.

    Remember in 2010-2012 all those action-orientated mmo's started coming out? Vindictus/bns etc, never work properly unless you have 10 ping.
    Last edited by Daffan; 2021-07-17 at 12:07 PM.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  18. #238
    Not being able to use the WXHB on a controller without playing hold mode.

    I think I'll keep my fingers actually Square...
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  19. #239
    mahjong in the golden saucer. I really want to learn this game.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-07-18 at 12:59 AM.

  20. #240
    I loathe the map in this game, it is taking me some time to get used to it.

    I also don't like that there doesn't seem to be global chat channels? How else are we supposed to meet others, find new friends etc

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