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  1. #281
    Don't play it but I looked through it at a glance.

    - Graphics look horrible, like a game from 2010. WoW's kept up well over the years, makes it look like an indy game.

    - The trailers showing pretty boy asian-looking characters but having deep voices with a british accent... ugh. Absolutely horrible. It's like how 15 year old me imagined himself as a superhero.

    - The buttrock used in the trailers makes it look generic and cheap.

    - most races seem to be 'human, but....'. An MMO without race variance feels weird.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by dlld View Post
    I believe i only ran into this in post ShB MSQ every new dungeon i came up to i had to then drop into the city buy a few crafted 510 pieces to push past the required ilvl. Which certainly wasn't enjoyable and pretty much drained all my accumulated gil.
    Yeah, you won't run into it in previous expansions because the final tomestone gear is obtained right away with poetics.

    You also won't really notice if you've been active throughout the current patch cycle, as you'll simply have been getting the gear during the lull periods.

    But for new/returning players in the current expansion, it's a constant back and forth of, "Oh, sorry, the next part of the story is in this dungeon and it requires a higher item level than the last dungeon even dropped. Better stop and go buy gear or farm tomes or something and come back later."
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-07-22 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    In that it hasn't had any appreciable updates or even a new version for the newest expansion? That's the definition of left behind. It's still functional and that's great, but once you outgrow it's use it becomes a useless feature.
    It seems again like you are asking for something that really clearly failed in WoW to be added to FF14. How did endless system replacement work for wow? It sucks. I like that FF14 leaves its features playable and doesn't screw them up. We don't need a new iteration of everything every expansion. Let stuff breath. We don't need 20 half assed new versions of content that is still playable anyway.

    That's interesting. I haven't had this issue. We've always ran whatever we had and invited whoever wanted to come. It was a huge boon and savings to us to be able to bring whoever we wanted, or if people weren't around we could still raid for fun.
    I've been in multiple situations in multiple guilds across multiple servers where people were asked to leave to make an encounter easier. I want tightly tuned, well designed content. Flex ruins that. It is necessarily true that fixed raid sizes can be more tightly designed than raids that support varied parties. There's a reason that 10 man raids that were made to be 10 man feel great, but doing modern raids as 10 man feels weird because every room feels gigantic since has to support three times that many people too.

    You misunderstood. I gave ff14 points for being good at this, as well as other items, but took away points in areas I felt it lacking. Much like PotD above, I gave points for it originally, but it also loses points because it's abandoned content for now unless they bring it back in EW.
    They made a newer version of the same feature in Stormblood. I don't know why they need a new version of every feature in every expansion. That leads to the bloated mess of wow.

    Irrelevant because that paradigm exists regardless of the game so the data is still true for both segments. Your dismissal of my analysis just shows that you'd rather push an agenda than actually look at the facts and frankly it's disappointing. I'm sorry that you aren't able to actually see that you're wrong about the balance. Sure it's worse, no argument there, but it's not THAT much worse, despite the staggering complexity difference.
    You are wrong. Does that paradigm exist to some degree regardless of game? Yes. However, to pretend that a game with character customization and more varied gearing has it to the same extent as a game without those things is just flatly wrong. Someone with the wrong setup in WoW is going to be disastrously behind someone with the right setup like more than 50% behind in some cases even if they both play at the same level.

    You want to pretend that we can look at the top 1% and assume everything flows down evenly to the rest of both games, and that just plain does not follow.It is not a rational conclusion. Even if both games had no character customization it would not be a rational conclusion. It's a hasty generalization fallacy with a side of cream skimming. You can't generalize about the other 99% by looking at patterns in a cream skimmed 1%, and then stretching that to reach across two games and assume that your already fallacious assumption must span both evenly is even worse.

    For you to call this "fact" is ridiculous. A comparative example of your fallacy would be:

    The 99th percentile of lawyers own large homes.
    The 99th percentile of custom support managers own large homes.
    Therefore, the 50th percentile of lawyers and the 50th percentile of customer support managers must also have comparable homes to each other.

    Can you really not see how that does not follow? It's wrong before you even compare the two sets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Don't play it but I looked through it at a glance.

    - Graphics look horrible, like a game from 2010. WoW's kept up well over the years, makes it look like an indy game.

    - The trailers showing pretty boy asian-looking characters but having deep voices with a british accent... ugh. Absolutely horrible. It's like how 15 year old me imagined himself as a superhero.

    - The buttrock used in the trailers makes it look generic and cheap.

    - most races seem to be 'human, but....'. An MMO without race variance feels weird.
    "Bro I read the back of a LoTR book and it sounds boring and generic. My opinion is very important."
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It seems again like you are asking for something that really clearly failed in WoW to be added to FF14. How did endless system replacement work for wow? It sucks. I like that FF14 leaves its features playable and doesn't screw them up. We don't need a new iteration of everything every expansion. Let stuff breath. We don't need 20 half assed new versions of content that is still playable anyway.
    What does this even have to do with WoW?

    XIV is really good about keeping some content "alive" but also just abandons others. It's not really something that's up for debate.

    I've been in multiple situations in multiple guilds across multiple servers where people were asked to leave to make an encounter easier. I want tightly tuned, well designed content. Flex ruins that. It is necessarily true that fixed raid sizes can be more tightly designed than raids that support varied parties. There's a reason that 10 man raids that were made to be 10 man feel great, but doing modern raids as 10 man feels weird because every room feels gigantic since has to support three times that many people too.
    >I want tightly tuned content.
    >I'm doing Flex.

    C'mon now.

    For you to call this "fact" is ridiculous. A comparative example of your fallacy would be:

    The 99th percentile of lawyers own large homes.
    The 99th percentile of custom support managers own large homes.
    Therefore, the 50th percentile of lawyers and the 50th percentile of customer support managers must also have comparable homes to each other.

    Can you really not see how that does not follow? It's wrong before you even compare the two sets.
    The hell kind of blithering nonsense is this? We're talking about class balance, not economic disparity, jeez.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    What does this even have to do with WoW?
    The conversation them and I are having is "Features from wow Id like to see in FF14", explicitly.

    XIV is really good about keeping some content "alive" but also just abandons others. It's not really something that's up for debate.
    As does any living game, but the question is adding scalable content *like in wow*, and wows solutions to these issues are horrendous and way worse than how FF14 handles it.

    >I want tightly tuned content.
    >I'm doing Flex.

    C'mon now.
    No idea what point you are even trying to make.

    The hell kind of blithering nonsense is this? We're talking about class balance, not economic disparity, jeez.
    What constitutes valid logic doesn't magically get suspended when you are talking about video games.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The conversation them and I are having is "Features from wow Id like to see in FF14", explicitly.
    Yes, but you're discussing updating or expanding on systems in XIV and your response is, "But WoW did bad things!"

    It's not really a disagreement so much as a distorted sense of protectionism.

    XIV does tend to create a lot of new systems as it goes along, often discarding old ones along the way. Sometimes they're improvements to the old system, but still completely replace the old one instead of building on it. It's not ideal, but they do a pretty good job of keeping most things relevant. It's not a chief complaint of mine, but it's there.

    No idea what point you are even trying to make.
    You certainly do have an idea.

    What constitutes valid logic doesn't magically get suspended when you are talking about video games.
    But it's not valid logic. You're trying to apply concepts from a topic whose only parallel is the usage of percentage signs.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    But i do miss just switching between classes. I even tried a redmage for a bit, but was pulled back by the idea of running around coerthas again. I guess its an end game thing for my playstyle.
    Yeah, being able to switch was nice, especially since I was undecided on what job I wanted to stick with, plus having one melee and one ranged was great. This is probably the one pro to WoW specs (particularly hybrid classes) over the job system. I like dragoon (my main job), but I'm not used to playing melee DPS extensively and I'm not sure it's what I want to be devoted to until max level. Most of the jobs are fun, but none of them have hit me as "this is it" yet so I'm interested in red mage and machinist. Based on job descriptions, dancer is the one I really wanted to try but obviously can't on the trial.

    Next time I think I'm going to slow down a lot, probably do side quests while leveling. Bouncing around the world doing MSQ isn't much fun on its own. I've been finishing up my hunting log for EXP and many places I'd never been to before because the MSQ didn't send me there. My trial character I wanted to just get a feel for the game and see what I'd be getting myself into (because I loathe the idea of mandatory raids), so I've been in more of a rush than I would be otherwise. I'm not even at the make or break content yet.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It seems again like you are asking for something that really clearly failed in WoW to be added to FF14. How did endless system replacement work for wow? It sucks. I like that FF14 leaves its features playable and doesn't screw them up. We don't need a new iteration of everything every expansion. Let stuff breath. We don't need 20 half assed new versions of content that is still playable anyway.
    My discussion point on scalable content is not endless system replacement. They're literally the opposite.

    The first point is designing content/systems that doesn't just get abandoned. This is things like flex, Mythic+, mount/tmog collections, etc. These types of systems set the foundation for the second piece which designing something that motivates and rewards multiple player types simultaneously.

    FF14 is pretty good about creating system/content that doesn't get abandoned. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Where I think they can do better is creating their content with a deeper spread across player types. So many features are bare bones or strictly intended with a singular play pattern for a singular player type and it's independent of it being battle content or side content.

    They've gotten better with some more recent iterations (like Bozja compared to Eureka), but as they get better with these things, they get worse at point 1.

    These points aren't necessarily tied to WoW (or even WoW doing them better/worse), they're merely an area where I see significant room for improvement.

    I've been in multiple situations in multiple guilds across multiple servers where people were asked to leave to make an encounter easier. I want tightly tuned, well designed content. Flex ruins that. It is necessarily true that fixed raid sizes can be more tightly designed than raids that support varied parties. There's a reason that 10 man raids that were made to be 10 man feel great, but doing modern raids as 10 man feels weird because every room feels gigantic since has to support three times that many people too.
    Bovine kinda hinted at it, but like flex wasn't designed for tightly tuned well designed content so your entire argument just collapses on itself. That's what Mythic was designed for. I'm not entirely sure why you even brought it up...you're well aware it's hypocritical.

    They made a newer version of the same feature in Stormblood. I don't know why they need a new version of every feature in every expansion. That leads to the bloated mess of wow.
    If they don't make new features or updates, the content becomes abandoned. You say you love that content isn't abandoned in FF14 and then turn around say that they don't need to update it? That's contradictory.

    Someone with the wrong setup in WoW is going to be disastrously behind someone with the right setup like more than 50% behind in some cases even if they both play at the same level.
    According to my SimC:
    • If I picked BiS talents for patchwerk and if I pick the absolute lowest performing ones it is exactly a 5.2% differential and that includes using one throughput talent that's near useless in ST. That's actually surprisingly good balance if the spread from the absolute worst to the absolute best is only 5.2%.
    • If I take my legendary off and replace it with a non garbage piece it's still only a 9.5% DPS differential. It would be less with any other throughput oriented legendary.
    • If I pick the lowest performing covenant combination possible it's a 30% differential between the best.

    Absolute WORST case scenario for Ret Paladins is roughly 45% differential in possible throughput with equal skill, but I think we can both agree that this is a stupid fucking distinction to even have to explain, but I wanted you to see it. Very few if any players will consistently make ALL wrong choices.

    You want to pretend that we can look at the top 1% and assume everything flows down evenly to the rest of both games, and that just plain does not follow.It is not a rational conclusion. Even if both games had no character customization it would not be a rational conclusion. It's a hasty generalization fallacy with a side of cream skimming. You can't generalize about the other 99% by looking at patterns in a cream skimmed 1%, and then stretching that to reach across two games and assume that your already fallacious assumption must span both evenly is even worse.
    The reality is that the meta is defined and does filter down regardless of whether you think it doesn't. I never said it flows down evenly or even all the way, but it absolutely does flow down in both games. That's literally undeniable.

    It's been a complaint for years that people hate meta sheep. It absolutely exists in both games to a serious degree (even in examples where talent choices are as small as a 5.2% difference in output). People look at it for info on what materia to meld and how much skillspeed tiers, and what openers to use or alternate rotations.

    For you to call this "fact" is ridiculous. A comparative example of your fallacy would be:

    The 99th percentile of lawyers own large homes.
    The 99th percentile of custom support managers own large homes.
    Therefore, the 50th percentile of lawyers and the 50th percentile of customer support managers must also have comparable homes to each other.

    Can you really not see how that does not follow? It's wrong before you even compare the two sets.
    The difference here is I'm looking at actual log data to make my points, where are you getting your information from? Is your claim of 50% behind in DPS based on any actual analysis? Can you explain more on that? What data points did you use so I can validate.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yes, but you're discussing updating or expanding on systems in XIV and your response is, "But WoW did bad things!"

    It's not really a disagreement so much as a distorted sense of protectionism.

    XIV does tend to create a lot of new systems as it goes along, often discarding old ones along the way. Sometimes they're improvements to the old system, but still completely replace the old one instead of building on it. It's not ideal, but they do a pretty good job of keeping most things relevant. It's not a chief complaint of mine, but it's there.
    If someone says "Lets do this like WoW", it is perfectly reasonable to say "But how did that turn out when wow did that?"

    You certainly do have an idea.
    If you can't be bothered to articulate an idea, and prefer this weird, smug garbage, I feel justified ignoring it. It's not my responsibility to intuit what your condescension means. If you want to say something, be a grown up and say it.

    But it's not valid logic. You're trying to apply concepts from a topic whose only parallel is the usage of percentage signs.
    The topic is irrelevant. It could be about cars, or insects, or anything. You can't say "This looks similar when comparing the 99th percentile, therefore it must also be similar at the 50th percentile". That is fallacious reasoning, and it is really obvious that it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    My discussion point on scalable content is not endless system replacement. They're literally the opposite.

    The first point is designing content/systems that doesn't just get abandoned. This is things like flex, Mythic+, mount/tmog collections, etc. These types of systems set the foundation for the second piece which designing something that motivates and rewards multiple player types simultaneously.
    You are conflating a bunch of things here. Flex isn't a type of content. It's a format for how many people can enter a raid. Changing 8 man raids to support 5-10 players doesn't change what content is current or left behind or whatever. A similar thing is true for M+. It's a format for playing newer content, not a system for expanding the longevity or viability of older content. Neither of these things have anything to do with abandonment of content.

    Mythic+ has been absolutely cancerous to wow and is one of the most destructive things they have ever added to the game, so the suggestion of adding it to FF14 and ruining that game too is horrible. It's a system practically custom designed to encourage toxicity and degenerate gameplay. This is exactly the stuff I initially took umbrage with and you argued with me: You want to turn FF14 into everything that ruined WoW.

    FF14 is pretty good about creating system/content that doesn't get abandoned. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Where I think they can do better is creating their content with a deeper spread across player types. So many features are bare bones or strictly intended with a singular play pattern for a singular player type and it's independent of it being battle content or side content.
    What is your solution besides copying the things that made wow complete garbage for anyone who isn't interested in pushing difficult content?

    They've gotten better with some more recent iterations (like Bozja compared to Eureka), but as they get better with these things, they get worse at point 1.

    These points aren't necessarily tied to WoW (or even WoW doing them better/worse), they're merely an area where I see significant room for improvement.
    But your ideas are all rooted in copying the exact systems that made me leave wow and made almost all of my friends leave WoW. There is a game for you already. It is called wow.

    Bovine kinda hinted at it, but like flex wasn't designed for tightly tuned well designed content so your entire argument just collapses on itself. That's what Mythic was designed for. I'm not entirely sure why you even brought it up...you're well aware it's hypocritical.
    You are confusing "tightly tuned" and "well designed" for "difficult". I didn't say anything about difficulty levels. The idea that you can't well well designed content unless it is soul-crushingly difficult is absurd on its face. This is EXACTLY the shit I talked about initially and you said I was off base on: You are applying the trash, toxic wow mentality to FF14. You are telling me that I am not allowed to simultaneously want well design, tight content and also not care for very difficult content.

    If they don't make new features or updates, the content becomes abandoned. You say you love that content isn't abandoned in FF14 and then turn around say that they don't need to update it? That's contradictory.
    No, they are two different concepts. Heaven on High is not abandoned. It's a complete piece of content that you can do and enjoy whenever you want. It gives rewards that are still relevant and provides a challenge that is still relevant. Abandoned would be disallowing entry, or making it so that when I go in I kill everything in one hit. That's what wow does. It makes the old content unplayable as it was in almost every case.

    According to my SimC:
    • If I picked BiS talents for patchwerk and if I pick the absolute lowest performing ones it is exactly a 5.2% differential and that includes using one throughput talent that's near useless in ST. That's actually surprisingly good balance if the spread from the absolute worst to the absolute best is only 5.2%.
    • If I take my legendary off and replace it with a non garbage piece it's still only a 9.5% DPS differential. It would be less with any other throughput oriented legendary.
    • If I pick the lowest performing covenant combination possible it's a 30% differential between the best.

    Absolute WORST case scenario for Ret Paladins is roughly 45% differential in possible throughput with equal skill, but I think we can both agree that this is a stupid fucking distinction to even have to explain, but I wanted you to see it. Very few if any players will consistently make ALL wrong choices.
    So the right decisions can be close to a 50% difference to the wrong decisions? Thanks for proving my point.

    The reality is that the meta is defined and does filter down regardless of whether you think it doesn't. I never said it flows down evenly or even all the way, but it absolutely does flow down in both games. That's literally undeniable.
    There is no intraclass meta in FF14. That's the whole point.

    It's been a complaint for years that people hate meta sheep. It absolutely exists in both games to a serious degree (even in examples where talent choices are as small as a 5.2% difference in output). People look at it for info on what materia to meld and how much skillspeed tiers, and what openers to use or alternate rotations.
    Sure, and WoW and has all of that plus a bunch more in talents and more impactful gear choices. WoW is worse in this regard. It is absolutely undeniable. If there are more knobs to turn, there is more that can be wrong. Wow has more knobs to turn. There isn't a debate here. The question is whether you think that going to icy veins and speccing as you are told is such amazing gameplay that we need to bring it to FF14 when the tradeoff is less balance.

    The difference here is I'm looking at actual log data to make my points, where are you getting your information from? Is your claim of 50% behind in DPS based on any actual analysis? Can you explain more on that? What data points did you use so I can validate.
    Your data doesn't become good by pointing at a lack of alternative data. Your data sucks. You do not have comprehensive data. You have cream skimmed data from the people that CHOOSE to post their logs. It is worthless.

    My argument isn't about data. It is: More knobs is more imbalance.

    This conversation is largely turning into me fleeing a restaurant that force fed me shit sandwiches, and I finally found a restaurant without them, then you come in demanding they serve me more shit sandwiches at this restaurant. There is already a restaurant for you. It is called WoW. Stop trying to ruin this game for me like your demands ruined wow. Jesus Christ.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    "Bro I read the back of a LoTR book and it sounds boring and generic. My opinion is very important."
    That's a very dumb take. A trailer is meant to sell the game to you. I can definitely make an opinion off the trailer. It's literally meant to make me want to buy the game, and it failed on every level by being cringy and putting deep british voices on the faces of 18 year old anime pretty boys. The butt rock doesn't help.

    The game's aesthetic and lore look like something made by an 18 year old neckbeard with a fedora and a katana.

  11. #291
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Some people really need to get over their hatred of wow. It's ridiculous at this point.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This conversation is largely turning into me fleeing a restaurant that force fed me shit sandwiches, and I finally found a restaurant without them, then you come in demanding they serve me more shit sandwiches at this restaurant. There is already a restaurant for you. It is called WoW. Stop trying to ruin this game for me like your demands ruined wow. Jesus Christ.
    And this is all it comes down to.

    You can try to dress it up all you like, you can pretend like you're arguing cohesive, legitimate points. But all it comes down to is you hating on the old game for hurting you and being irrational about the new game because you think it loves you or something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You are confusing "tightly tuned" and "well designed" for "difficult". I didn't say anything about difficulty levels. The idea that you can't well well designed content unless it is soul-crushingly difficult is absurd on its face. This is EXACTLY the shit I talked about initially and you said I was off base on: You are applying the trash, toxic wow mentality to FF14. You are telling me that I am not allowed to simultaneously want well design, tight content and also not care for very difficult content.
    What the fuck do you think "tightly tuned" means? Are we back to making up definitions? Does fluid now mean rigid again?

    And stop using "bu...but...but your trash toxic WoW mentality!" as some kind of actual argument.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-07-22 at 11:07 PM.

  13. #293
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meowfurion View Post
    100% this is my entire issue with FFXIV.

    Oh.......and lots of weebing. Must EVERYONE be a cat dude or a bunny girl in skimpy clothes in Limsa looking exactly the same?
    I'm not gonna dispute the levels of weeb in both the game and community, however it's hard to not look at least a bit anime no matter what thanks to the art style.

    That being said, it's only about 98% of the community that goes full weeb, some of us like to have fun with it and play, say, a lalafel guido.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You are conflating a bunch of things here. Flex isn't a type of content. It's a format for how many people can enter a raid. Changing 8 man raids to support 5-10 players doesn't change what content is current or left behind or whatever. A similar thing is true for M+. It's a format for playing newer content, not a system for expanding the longevity or viability of older content. Neither of these things have anything to do with abandonment of content.

    Mythic+ has been absolutely cancerous to wow and is one of the most destructive things they have ever added to the game, so the suggestion of adding it to FF14 and ruining that game too is horrible. It's a system practically custom designed to encourage toxicity and degenerate gameplay. This is exactly the stuff I initially took umbrage with and you argued with me: You want to turn FF14 into everything that ruined WoW.
    I was very clear when I said content/systems. Mythic+ and Flex are both systems. I also don't know where you got the idea that M+ has been absolutely cancerous to WoW. Is there a report or data source you can provide to back that up? I haven't heard that distinction.

    I'll hold my breath....

    You are confusing "tightly tuned" and "well designed" for "difficult". I didn't say anything about difficulty levels. The idea that you can't well well designed content unless it is soul-crushingly difficult is absurd on its face. This is EXACTLY the shit I talked about initially and you said I was off base on: You are applying the trash, toxic wow mentality to FF14. You are telling me that I am not allowed to simultaneously want well design, tight content and also not care for very difficult content.
    No you are confusing them not me lol. Re-read your post.

    No, they are two different concepts. Heaven on High is not abandoned. It's a complete piece of content that you can do and enjoy whenever you want. It gives rewards that are still relevant and provides a challenge that is still relevant. Abandoned would be disallowing entry, or making it so that when I go in I kill everything in one hit. That's what wow does. It makes the old content unplayable as it was in almost every case.
    Actually that's not what abandoned means. Something can still be abandoned, but functional. Class design is that way. There are no more classes coming to the game, and minimal if any updates made there. Something can also be abandoned, but less functional.

    So the right decisions can be close to a 50% difference to the wrong decisions? Thanks for proving my point.
    The fact that you put exactly 0 effort into responding to this is exactly how I know you had no intention of arguing in good faith. If you drew the conclusion that the most optimal scenario and the literal WORST possible scenario somehow proves you right, you lack any genuine critical thinking (and I don't believe that to be true) or you're arguing maliciously.

    Thank you for confirming. Best of luck out there.

    Your data doesn't become good by pointing at a lack of alternative data. Your data sucks. You do not have comprehensive data. You have cream skimmed data from the people that CHOOSE to post their logs. It is worthless.
    Then what is your data if mine is worthless lol? Of that's right a malicious hate filled agenda founded on irrationality and misinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    And this is all it comes down to.

    You can try to dress it up all you like, you can pretend like you're arguing cohesive, legitimate points. But all it comes down to is you hating on the old game for hurting you and being irrational about the new game because you think it loves you or something.

    What the fuck do you think "tightly tuned" means? Are we back to making up definitions? Does fluid now mean rigid again?

    And stop using "bu...but...but your trash toxic WoW mentality!" as some kind of actual argument.
    Very few posters actually beat me down to the point where I no longer feel compelled to respond, but this guys there now. I said my last bit. Making up alternative definitions, hate fueled misinformation campaigns, and just general maliciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    hey weebs...

    and warcraft players.

    How on earth do you think you're against one another? Seriously.

    Ive spent 15 years literally avoiding proclaiming my self as an mmo player. Because we are the absolute worst, basement dwelling assholes in this universe of (people who have aspirations and goals in the actual real world and want to LEVEL UP). Wanna criticise 'weeb culture'? Ive literally spent 15 years avoiding this attack. Wanna introduce wow into any conversation in the real and actual world? Wow players/weeb ff 14? We all suck. I get you think wow is more brofseffrauurus. But when faced with the real world of EVEN 'GAMERS', its pure. nerd. culture.

    Wow is embarrassing. Has been for about for 12 years. FF14 is equally embarrassing. I dont want to say 'we're in this together' but to think the existence of orcs helps us? It doesnt you neckbeards. You are still trash in the actual world. You are an MMO player. Stop fantasizing youre some kind of bro. You are a neckbeard. So am i. MMO players are the cliche of the cliche. We hit every single checkmark. YOU. AINT. IT. Youre a neckbeard. Stop identifying with these assholes.
    What the heck is this nonsense lol. I'm not some basement dwelling neckbeard who lives with his parents still nor am I trash in the real world. Gaming is not embarrassing, it's a perfectly acceptable hobby. How am I cliche of a cliche? I race cars on the weekends, play USTA tennis on weeknights I'm not gaming, and work at a fortune 500. This isn't some humblebrag, but I hope you can see that whatever comraderie attempt you just made was beyond pitiful and not representative of everyone.

    One of my good WoW buddies is a competition powerlifter. Another works at NASA. Like, what the heck are you going on about?

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    Biggest gripe with the game is lack of any class customization, no talent tree is pretty hard to swallow if you come from any other MMO. There is no choice on how you play your job, just one way.
    There is some customization with materia though.

    But here is the question. The game is very well balanced atm and all jobs are viable. Would you trade that for a talent system and flavor of the month balance?

    It's not like i hate talent systems. I just think dev time is better spent making new content than crunching class numbers for every talent combination. In the end, everyone is gonna play the same one anyways.

    I personally like that it is this way. I overdosed on systems in WoW. The jobs have more abilities than WoW, i get my kick there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Some people really need to get over their hatred of wow. It's ridiculous at this point.
    That'd be ok if people stopped saying "Do it this way cause that is how WoW does it and i'm used to that".
    FF is a different game and does things differently. Leaving feedback that is basically "why isn't this just like WoW, but not WoW" is what i find tireing. I like FF cause it is different from WoW.

  16. #296
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    There is some customization with materia though.

    But here is the question. The game is very well balanced atm and all jobs are viable. Would you trade that for a talent system and flavor of the month balance?

    It's not like i hate talent systems. I just think dev time is better spent making new content than crunching class numbers for every talent combination. In the end, everyone is gonna play the same one anyways.

    I personally like that it is this way. I overdosed on systems in WoW. The jobs have more abilities than WoW, i get my kick there.

    - - - Updated - - -
    I'd be fine with this if the job abilities did more than damage. There's little to no player expression in them because they have no secondary CC effects. No knockback, stun, pull, fear, immobilize or anything like it. I feel like Guild Wars 2 does player customization and skill expression better than FF14 for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That'd be ok if people stopped saying "Do it this way cause that is how WoW does it and i'm used to that".
    FF is a different game and does things differently. Leaving feedback that is basically "why isn't this just like WoW, but not WoW" is what i find tireing. I like FF cause it is different from WoW.
    A lot of these concerns come from people who have played wow, sure. It is a wow forum, after all. But many of them come from veterans of other games as well such as BDO, ESO and Gw2. I wouldn't dismiss them as trying to turn the game into wow, that's too narrow minded.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That'd be ok if people stopped saying "Do it this way cause that is how WoW does it and i'm used to that".
    FF is a different game and does things differently. Leaving feedback that is basically "why isn't this just like WoW, but not WoW" is what i find tireing. I like FF cause it is different from WoW.
    But people haven't been saying that about most things. (Except like...transmog, I guess. Or general smoothness of gameplay, which WoW excels at.)

    Almost everyone saying, "Do it this way because WoW does it that way" have been the people accusing others of saying it. I've seen almost none of that from people actually discussing changes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    There is some customization with materia though.

    But here is the question. The game is very well balanced atm and all jobs are viable. Would you trade that for a talent system and flavor of the month balance?

    It's not like i hate talent systems. I just think dev time is better spent making new content than crunching class numbers for every talent combination. In the end, everyone is gonna play the same one anyways.

    I personally like that it is this way. I overdosed on systems in WoW. The jobs have more abilities than WoW, i get my kick there.
    A lot of what people have asked for aren't things that would break balance. No talents or things like that.

    But what I think a lot of people have touched on is a lack of something other than your standard rotation in the gameplay itself. Very few classes have any reason at all to ever press any button outside of the ones their rotation and raid buff synergy demands. Even mobility buttons are oGCD with potency slapped on them, so you use them for damage.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    There is some customization with materia though.

    But here is the question. The game is very well balanced atm and all jobs are viable. Would you trade that for a talent system and flavor of the month balance?

    It's not like i hate talent systems. I just think dev time is better spent making new content than crunching class numbers for every talent combination. In the end, everyone is gonna play the same one anyways.
    In my other post above, I ran the full gamut of SimC on my character for all possible throughput combinations. The spread between absolute worst and absolute best was 5.2% DPS, and that's with picking an AOE talent on an ST fight, with more realistic options the spread would be even smaller to the point that player skill/fight breakdown (kill time, cooldown timing, and even substat spread) would further reduce them. That's surprisingly tight.

    I'd love some ways to individualize my character in FF14, especially if it just barely touches balance. Coveneants though? Not so much.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I was very clear when I said content/systems. Mythic+ and Flex are both systems. I also don't know where you got the idea that M+ has been absolutely cancerous to WoW. Is there a report or data source you can provide to back that up? I haven't heard that distinction.

    I'll hold my breath....



    No you are confusing them not me lol. Re-read your post.



    Actually that's not what abandoned means. Something can still be abandoned, but functional. Class design is that way. There are no more classes coming to the game, and minimal if any updates made there. Something can also be abandoned, but less functional.



    The fact that you put exactly 0 effort into responding to this is exactly how I know you had no intention of arguing in good faith. If you drew the conclusion that the most optimal scenario and the literal WORST possible scenario somehow proves you right, you lack any genuine critical thinking (and I don't believe that to be true) or you're arguing maliciously.

    Thank you for confirming. Best of luck out there.



    Then what is your data if mine is worthless lol? Of that's right a malicious hate filled agenda founded on irrationality and misinformation.



    Very few posters actually beat me down to the point where I no longer feel compelled to respond, but this guys there now. I said my last bit. Making up alternative definitions, hate fueled misinformation campaigns, and just general maliciousness.



    What the heck is this nonsense lol. I'm not some basement dwelling neckbeard who lives with his parents still nor am I trash in the real world. Gaming is not embarrassing, it's a perfectly acceptable hobby. How am I cliche of a cliche? I race cars on the weekends, play USTA tennis on weeknights I'm not gaming, and work at a fortune 500. This isn't some humblebrag, but I hope you can see that whatever comraderie attempt you just made was beyond pitiful and not representative of everyone.

    One of my good WoW buddies is a competition powerlifter. Another works at NASA. Like, what the heck are you going on about?
    Ooops.

    1. Posted in the wrong thread.
    2. Apropos of nothing.
    3. I was very.... very drunk (and obviously up in my fee-fee's )
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-07-24 at 03:32 AM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I'd be fine with this if the job abilities did more than damage. There's little to no player expression in them because they have no secondary CC effects. No knockback, stun, pull, fear, immobilize or anything like it. I feel like Guild Wars 2 does player customization and skill expression better than FF14 for sure.


    A lot of these concerns come from people who have played wow, sure. It is a wow forum, after all. But many of them come from veterans of other games as well such as BDO, ESO and Gw2. I wouldn't dismiss them as trying to turn the game into wow, that's too narrow minded.
    The effects do extra damage when executed correctly (positionals) and grant buffs or enable to use of other abilities.
    It would be pretty annoying if they applied CC effects.
    There are seperate abilities for CC. There are stuns, interrupts, hard CC, roots, knockback immunity, positional requirement denial and snares. They are their own abilities as they should be. It would be a pain if they were rotational. It's bad enough that charges do damage and are rotational, compromising your mobility options.

    In GW2 they had to invent a new "shield bar" for enemies so those abilities with CC aren't useless in PvE. I don't think that is a good design at all myself.

    Guild wars is a different type of combat as well, as you have to pick your load out/limited number of abilities from a lot, which will probably not be ideal for every type of content, while in FF you have acess to all your abilities at all times, except PvP which has a lite version of the job. Different design.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-07-23 at 11:57 PM.

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