Spoiler I can't believe it. Tyrande did something.

[Kralljin]

"And though justice demands that she dies for her crimes, only she can save us"

- Zeratul Elune

[Mehrunes]

Imma come out and say it, bluntly even:

Sylvanas is a mary sue, and has been since Legion.

Her bargain with Helya left brutally obscure till now, the stupid crap with Genn vs Sylvanas where she nearly kills Genn but he manages to do what, temporarily set her back?

It was a precursor to everything in BFA.

Sylvanas destroys Teldrassil, no consequences.

Sylvanas denies the Alliance a victory by plaguing Undercity, Baine gets mad but doesnt do shit.

Sylvanas commits countless war crimes, nearly everyone around her notices shes a danger to people and yet they do -nothing- to stop her.

Sylvanas kills Saurfang, the legendary warrior of the Horde in a way designed to engineer him as weaker than her through her magic and trickery. An expected outcome, but his injury to her is, a very tiny cut to the edge of her eye?

Sylvanas fights Bolvar, who has the crown of domination, a device literally meant to break the will of undead and make them serve and somehow never employs it on one of the more powerful undead to force her to submit?

Sylvanas escapes every consequence in every situation she is involved in, every time she is threatened the only thing that ever hurts her even briefly is "Muh emotions" which absoleutley is a god aweful plot twist no matter how you look at it.

Even as far back as Cataclysm she goes against Garrosh and tries to plague Gilneas which she succeeds in doing, in a form.

Ultimatley there is not a single time Sylvanas is in danger, peril, at risk of death or in any form of mortal danger that could be permanently damaging to her life in the story.

Even ANDUIN freaking DIED at one point.

The only time this ever happens, the ONLY time, is when a random NPC in Cata shoots her in the back when shes dunking on Darius Crowley, of all the times shes in peril its one where ironic comedy is invovled.

And yet the Val'kyr just raise her anyway so it doesnt matter, even if it cost them their lives shes still got more.

Genn completely ruined her plans to make the Forsaken and herself immortal (which arguably set her on the path of siding with the Jailer for good, as the plan she had in Legion makes the later plans rather redundant) and she didn't kill Genn. He's the Mary Sue here. Sylvanas showed time and time again that despite trying to appear as someone who's above emotions she lashes out in anger when someone fucks her over. Yet Genn did just that and she just stood there like a moron. Even though her arrows were poisoned to the point Genn lost consciousness and had to be hauled out by other Worgen, being completely defenseless in the meantime. The only reason he's still alive is because the writers wanted him to remain alive, no matter how much of a plot contrivance they had to achieve that result.

Teldrassil escalated the war to a global conflict. And even though she did want a global conflict thanks to her Jailer-related shenanigans as we learned later on, her inner monologues in A Good War showed that she had to act on the spot thanks to Saurfang's treason and escalated things earlier than she wanted to.

As for Undercity, that's just one giant pile of Alliance plot armor. As per the naval balance of powers after the events of Legion established five seconds earlier in the aforementioned A Good War, the Horde had a bit of an edge in terms of naval strength, to the point that according to Saurfang they could defeat the Alliance navy even if they brought the battle to Stormwind (but wouldn't have enough transport ships to move an army large enough to properly besiege the city), where the Alliance would have the advantage of their shoreline artillery, spell-casters and the like. Here things were the other way around and it was Horde fighting on home turf. Yet the Alliance still managed to land just fine. AND transport an army large enough for a siege, even though Lordaeron is more defensible than Stormwind and would have required a larger force for a full scale assault like what the Alliance tried.

And then when they were just about to get wiped out by the Blight Jaina, who didn't coordinate with anyone, appeared with her magical ship just at the right moment to save the day. And then when she made a breach in the wall and Anduin stormed the breach, he got confronted by Lor'themar and Nathanos. With more Blight. That almost wiped them out a minute before. So did Anduin die? Nope. Alleria saved the day by warping in with Gelbin. Except their arrival did nothing to actually counter the Blight. She didn't warp on top of the Blight tanks or anything. She just warped right next to Anduin. Which, if not for Alliance's plot armor the size of a small galaxy, means she only provided the Horde with more people to melt. But the Alliance did have the plot armor the size of a small galaxy, so they survived.

Finally, Anduin's team of wonders got trapped with a Blight explosion large enough to demolish the city. Did the Alliance finally perish then? Nope again. Jaina pulled a magic shield against the Blight out of her ass, even though according to the previously established lore the only magic capable of defending against the Blight was Dreadlord magic. So either Blizzard was telling us something about the Jaina Dreadlord theory or they just put another layer of plot armor onto the Alliance there. And even though Jaina only shielded Anduin's posse and thousands in the city should have perished, the Alliance just shrugged that off.

As for Horde's lack of reaction to Sylvanas, all of ex-Horde Anduin's bootlickers made it clear that while their hearts bleed at the mere thought of disobeying their god-boiking, the Horde itself actually supported the war. Meaning that they didn't exactly have a standing. As for Baine specifically, he established long ago that he has the balls to act only when he thinks he won't face consequences. He would have faced the consequences if he tried something against Sylvanas while she was standing right in front of him. And Saurfang even managing to scratch her eye at all happened only because she toyed with him. He never stood a chance.

Besides, the very fact that Saurfang even got a chance to duel Sylvanas is just more Alliance plot armor (in this case also applying to Anduin's ass polyps that pretend to be Horde). Sylvanas agreed to a Mak'gora with Saurfang despite him having no standing to challenge her to one due to him being a traitor just because she "WaNtEd To SeE hIm SuFfEr". Except accepting the Mak'gora was in no way a necessary prerequisite for her to achieve that "goal". She could have easily made him suffer by killing his god-boiking and their force. And then she could have continued to torment him forever with necromancy. The duel happening at all was just yet another plot contrivance for the sake of the Alliance storyline.

Finally, if the Helm of Domination was capable of re-enslaving the undead that broke away from the Lich King there would have never been Forsaken. Or Knights of the Ebon Blade, for that matter.

As for Anduin, the only time he may have died was just now and even that isn't 100% certain. But if that's how he became Mournblade-wielder, that means he got resurrected by the Jailer moments later as well. So what's the difference between that and what happened in Silverpine?

[geco]

She ATTEMPTED to do something. But failed.

So really, nothing happened. Nothing changed. If all actions lead to status quo, then have you really accomplished anything?

Sadly so far he has not tried to do anything really useful or of his level.
She obtains the powers ... but he does not use them to regain hers lands.
She doesn't try to stop Azhara.
Don't try to keep the war
Kills Nathanos, which was not an achievement until now with these dialogues.

[ravenmoon]

If she can’t beat sylvanas without the borrowed power of a god, she is unworthy of doing so

That was Elune’s judgement.. tyrande was not worthy of killing sylvanas

Tyrande has always had Elune's power, that is what makes her so formidable, but then aren't priests and mages all wielding powers well beyond themselves.. ? druids too, it's not actually their power, they just learn to use it based on how tlaented they are.

Sylvanas' power is coming form the Jailer remember,

I thought that Elune doesn't intend Sylvans dead - either that or maybe Tyrande was crossing a point of no return, and Elune had to stop it.

[Mehrunes]

If the Jailer/Maw is so desperate for powerful souls, why just blast Sadfang to death, just blast the rest of the leaders there as well and/or give order to attack. They said themselves they can´t win with their troops. There, all dead, war won and over.
Also, the people who are so clever and walked straight into her trap at the battle for Lordaeron should be dead as well. Deus Ex Jaina should be, by all established lore, silenced by her Banshee scream and not be able to protect them. (and no, she isn´t that powerful) Would have fit the overall plan as well.

Sylvanas could be dead at that point and that still wouldn't have changed anything. The only magic capable of protecting against the Blight is Dreadlord magic. Not even the Light could do it. So unless Jaina is indeed Mal'ganis (well, that would explain her power boost in BfA when previously "all of her might" was so pathetic that Thalen just shrugged it off), her shield there shouldn't have worked. Though as I pointed out above, the Alliance should have lost at Lordaeron long before that. Great points in the rest of your post as well.

[justandulas]

Tyrande has always had Elune's power, that is what makes her so formidable, but then aren't priests and mages all wielding powers well beyond themselves.. ? druids too, it's not actually their power, they just learn to use it based on how tlaented they are.

Sylvanas' power is coming form the Jailer remember,

I thought that Elune doesn't intend Sylvans dead - either that or maybe Tyrande was crossing a point of no return, and Elune had to stop it.

She's used power, but never been a vessel. If you can't kill your opponent without literally channeling your god, you are UNWORTHY of that kill as it would have been ELUNE's kill, not Tyrande's. There's not glory or victory in that. Tyrande was deemed unworthy, but she also wouldn't let her die hence the dragon protecting her.

Sylvanas power comes from basically being Shang Tsung in WoW. She maybe got a push from the jailer but she can do everything she's shown on her own too, she isn't a vessel for his power... Anduin is

[Xilurm]

She's used power, but never been a vessel. If you can't kill your opponent without literally channeling your god, you are UNWORTHY of that kill as it would have been ELUNE's kill, not Tyrande's. There's not glory or victory in that. Tyrande was deemed unworthy, but she also wouldn't let her die hence the dragon protecting her.

Are you literally using your headcanon as a fact to explain why Tyrande lost her powers? Saying what Elune wants and doesn't want when we know next to nothing about her?

[ravenmoon]

"And though justice demands that she dies for her crimes, only she can save us"

- Zeratul Elune

Rofl.....hehe.

[Eapoe]

right lmao?
"oh nooo, shes using chains (again). who wouldve thought she could do that? and oh noooooo, shes flying away in banshee form (again). who wouldve thought she could do THAT?"

They weren’t surprised by any of that. They were surprised that the main force that Sylvanas was leading wasn’t the threat; but, that she was the diversion which let Anduin sneak in and get the sigil.

[Mehrunes]

On a side note, I know what Tyrande's creepy eyebows remind me of. Asparagus that was colored with a black sharpie

Considering FFXIV is the "weeb game" I think Blizz figured Warcraft is not anime enough. Shame they want it to be more like Dragonball instead of an actually good Seinen series.

They could still keep it shounen-themed and get a better inspiration. Dragon Ball is the bottom of the barrel regardless of whether you look at anime as a whole or even its own genre.

"And though justice demands that she dies for her crimes, only she can save us"

- Zeratul Elune

OK, I must admit I was wrong a few weeks back. I wrote

Nah, the Night Warrior storyline is pretty much perfect as it is. The only venue of upgrading it further is to have Tyrande learn about the amazing story bit of Sylvanas' soul being split by Frostmourne. After which she'd apologize Sylvanas for judging her too harshly while not having all of the information and then ask Elune to turn her into a Blood Elf so she could atone for that.

but it turns out this story can be improved even further by openly ripping off Kerrigan's and mixing that in here.

[Eapoe]

Are you literally using your headcanon as a fact to explain why Tyrande lost her powers? Saying what Elune wants and doesn't want when we know next to nothing about her?

Pretty much this. I posted in another forum that what happens actually raises some interesting questions.
Is it possible Elune is in league with the Jailer?
Does she have some unexplained divination that she can see glimpses of the future and knows that Sylvanas living is necessary to stop the Jailer and his forces later?
Does she think that Tyrande is not worthy of her power?

[justandulas]

Are you literally using your headcanon as a fact to explain why Tyrande lost her powers? Saying what Elune wants and doesn't want when we know next to nothing about her?

Yea I was speculating. I don’t think we have a concrete answer so speculation is all we have for now.

That was my opinion tho and I don’t think tyrande is worthy or even capable of killing sylvanas. Sylvanas didn’t need to channel the jailer for help in the fight, without elude, tyrande would be dead

[ravenmoon]

Sylvanas is such a great and consistently written character.
I LOVE MY QUEEN.

.. you may hate me, but I love you !!

[bagina]

Nah, it just really comes across as you *wanting* to be mad TBH.

Warcraft has never been the most sophisticated writing, it's basically comic book lore, with all the cheese and cool factor that implies, and some really poignant stories from time to time. But come on, it's evident that if Warcraft isn't giving the level of narrative depth you want, it has less to do with Warcraft than you.

People really have to drop the rose tinted colored glasses with Warcraft III. It's not about loving it or not, it was good; but if y'all keep putting it on a pedestal fueled by nostalgia, everything will be shit.

A whole lot of assumptions in this post. Literally where did I say anything about W3 or past writing? Don't just make up shit about me, I don't appreciate that. I'm the last person to pretend that Warcrafts writing has ever been good. That's not the point here.

It's just that recently the shit writing has been affecting my favorite character, that's why I'm vocal with my opinion instead of just ignoring it. When something is shit, I call it just that. It's not complicated. Don't make it complicated

[ravenmoon]

Yea I was speculating. I don’t think we have a concrete answer so speculation is all we have for now.

That was my opinion tho and I don’t think tyrande is worthy or even capable of killing sylvanas. Sylvanas didn’t need to channel the jailer for help in the fight, without elude, tyrande would be dead

It's hard to tell, , Elune gives me strength, the wrath is mine alone.

Well Tyrande has grown in strength and power ... Nathanos notices this too, but how strong Tyrande ws to begin with isn't really shown in game, WotA she is incredibly powerful.. but as a priests there is always the power of the deity involved.. not sure how anyone can make the distinction between the powers a person wields and their own power.

When a mage, you are wielding the power of the arcane - the arcane is unbelievably powerful but how much of it you wield depends on your personal power and ability or capability. Whether the source is Elune, the arcane, or shadows, the jailer - it's you wielding the power.

It's not Elune fighting Sylvanas, it's Tyrande fighting Sylvanas using all the power she's gained.

The night warrior is a power up

[Niter]

"And though justice demands that she dies for her crimes, only she can save us"

- Zeratul Elune

That's Blizzard in a nutshell.

If anyone wants to know what will happen in any Blizzard game, all we have to do is to see the story of their other game lines! It's rehash after rehash.

[Jotaux]

It made no sense. Why choke a person that doesn’t need to breathe? Why did Elune abandon Tyrande?

[ravenmoon]

It made no sense. Why choke a person that doesn’t need to breathe? Why did Elune abandon Tyrande?

That's the "mystery" - but I get you about the choking - seems an odd choice, but it's not incapable of happening., the way she turned into a literal shooting star (very cool btw) and caught Sylvanas nailing her to the floor, explains why she hasher hand on her neck.

What they could have added, was her hands beginning to glow, as if she would use her power to finish Sylvanas off, then show it begin to fade.

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I think nothing changed, other than the power of the cringe warrior being complete and utterly impotent despite being hyped as all-consuming. Like with the last cinemastic(s), she does something but it has no bearing on the outcome, it's just grand-standing and posturing with no tangible gain.

Omg Haidaes, Sylvanas has plot armor - Dnauser would never let Tyrande best her, we get to fight her and we still don't kill her.


Not even the Jailer can kill her.

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Interesting to see that Elune is at least as strong (if not stronger) than the Jailer.

Also was about time someone whooped Sylvanas' ass, even if she got away in the end.

I thought the cinematic was VERY cool

[Aucald]

I was under the impression that Tyrande was trying to tear Sylvanas' head off her shoulders and not strangle her, though I can see how it looks like strangling (and Sylvanas does seem to be affected by it).

[ravenmoon]

I was so excited that I forgot

It's a really cool cinematic.. .loving how Tyrande really takes on Sylvanas

There are 3 times Sylvanas is actually afriad and surprised.

When Tyrande'shands were on her throat, the expression painted is that Sylvanas is terrified, but when the finishing blow doesn't come, her smile returns as wshe notices the night warriors power waning.


Without it Sylvanas is able to pull her hands back..so does that mean Sylvanas is stronger than Tyrande without the night warrior power at this stage? Or maybe it's like a cooldown before she can switch to the arcane powers of her goddess and finish her off, i mean the mode Tyrande is in is dark side, i think if the dark side of the moon is fading, you can't just summon the full strength of the moon and stars and that very moment.

I'm speculating here, we have no idea what's going on inside. we're just shown and have to figure out.

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I was under the impression that Tyrande was trying to tear Sylvanas' head off her shoulders and not strangle her, though I can see how it looks like strangling (and Sylvanas does seem to be affected by it).

Yes, that makes a lot more sense than strangling.. the image that came to my mind was she would literally squeeze the head off the neck.

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Her new model looks like a female purple Prince Renathal

shouldn't that be the other way round? it's the same model used in 8.1, so it presumably is out before the shadowlands ones were done.

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I had a good laugh, so once again nothing was achieved and the night warrior arc had a very pitiful payoff. That Tyrande tried to strangle someone, who doesn't need to breath was just amazing XD

You should know better, that in warcraft .. cool is the pay off.. results are actually in consequential, they change like the shifting sands, and besides they are narrative controlled.


Cool is the all rewarding factor. If you're cool, then blizzard has shown you off well. But we probably now the result is to have Tyrande control the power later, and that moment is what Elune uses to help her out.

I'm glad she doesn't turn into an evil, savage monster.. but instead gets to keep this power. Would not have bene my preferred choice originally, but it's an interesting development. We've seen night elves use the power of the Arcane extensively, and the power of nature, via the Well of Eternity and the World trees with their Emerald dream connection. what we hadn't seen is something from the Elune side.

What is strange is they have to skip to showing the dark side, when they haven't actually shown much of the light/bright side of the moon and the power that wields. And no, priests casting arcane starfalls, moon lances, and star shards doesn't count as a full display.

The Night warrior is the first serious in game insight into the power of Elune.. even the novels are not very explicit on it. We see some of it in WotA, it's very powerful, and a hint in Wolfheart, but never for long. Skip ahead to Tyrande in End times is the next glimpse we get, but no real story, she is just using those powers. I mean we haven't even seen moon Priestess casters fighting in battle for the night elves at all (nevermind how long it took us to see Wardens and Demon hunters properly -and finally mages.. most of the earlier showings were sentinels and druids).