1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    When half the healing specs are basically excluded for half a decade it seems like a problem.

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    When half the healing specs are basically excluded for half a decade it seems like a problem.
    Their representation overall isn't bad. Their toolkit is just not good for the WF race. That simple.

    Ion said at the start of SL that just because in the WF scenario you see the same few specs over and over again, that they won't tune around that. This was about disc priests providing shields and how valuable shields were for progression and he was like yeah should we now remove shields from disc because a handful WF guilds use them for that reason? Overall balancing of the healers is good, just not for the WF race.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Their representation overall isn't bad. Their toolkit is just not good for the WF race. That simple.

    Ion said at the start of SL that just because in the WF scenario you see the same few specs over and over again, that they won't tune around that. This was about disc priests providing shields and how valuable shields were for progression and he was like yeah should we now remove shields from disc because a handful WF guilds use them for that reason? Overall balancing of the healers is good, just not for the WF race.
    I mean, if Holy Paladin, Disc Priest and Resto Shaman is the prefered healer trio for a decade, then yes, we should balance that.

    It's not like this is a complicated issue. The core problem is simple - these three specs bring in vastly superior utility, be it damage reductions, SLT bypassing various healing reductions and absorbs inflating raids hp to crazy degree. The other three only have their raw output - and this output isn't really much better, to the point where you "need" them.

    Also, it's not like their usefulness drops beyond WF guilds. Spirit Shell was absurdly strong across most skill levels. SLT would still keep people alive on Generals with -100% healing debuff. Aura Mastery offers a good damage reduction at long range. You generally don't go "pff, we don't need that", but rather "we don't have these specs - it will make things harder but we have no choice."

    'Course, this is yet another expansion where DRs remain the same, so I really doubt anything will happen. Hopefully Symbol of Hope rework is a sign of things to come, but it's probably not strong enough to influence things yet. We'll see how it goes in further patches, but I don't think this WFR will have any changes to core healing roster.

    I wonder if things would work differently if Ion actually played a Mistweaver or Resto Druid, instead of Shaman.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    You falsely assume that those specs even bring more raw hps. Quite sure in an WF environment with everyone being 10 ilvls under the average CE guild when they reach those fights, rshaman pumps the most.
    They absolutely can in that scenario. rshaman is only best if you get constant near-maximum use out of mastery, and the raid is at least semi-stacked.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I mean, if Holy Paladin, Disc Priest and Resto Shaman is the prefered healer trio for a decade, then yes, we should balance that.

    It's not like this is a complicated issue. The core problem is simple - these three specs bring in vastly superior utility, be it damage reductions, SLT bypassing various healing reductions and absorbs inflating raids hp to crazy degree. The other three only have their raw output - and this output isn't really much better, to the point where you "need" them.

    Also, it's not like their usefulness drops beyond WF guilds. Spirit Shell was absurdly strong across most skill levels. SLT would still keep people alive on Generals with -100% healing debuff. Aura Mastery offers a good damage reduction at long range. You generally don't go "pff, we don't need that", but rather "we don't have these specs - it will make things harder but we have no choice."

    'Course, this is yet another expansion where DRs remain the same, so I really doubt anything will happen. Hopefully Symbol of Hope rework is a sign of things to come, but it's probably not strong enough to influence things yet. We'll see how it goes in further patches, but I don't think this WFR will have any changes to core healing roster.

    I wonder if things would work differently if Ion actually played a Mistweaver or Resto Druid, instead of Shaman.
    Assume these 3 healers get nerfed to the ground and now we see 4 rdruids instead. Now every top guild runs 4 rdruids. Does that make things any better? People at this level will always go for the absolute best possible setup they can bring. Nerfing the top healers will change the meta, but the meta will always exist. Kinda pointless.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by BrioWoW View Post
    Did Limit give up or are they just not streaming? Not a good look for them going into the weekend.
    Yesterday was a travel day, hence no streaming. But Max tweeted about an hour ago; "Prob no stream till Tuesday maybe a 30 min one Monday night". Which is odd, because he has stated repeated they would allows stream Heoric...Even "dissing" Echo for turning off their streams.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by BrioWoW View Post
    Did Limit give up or are they just not streaming? Not a good look for them going into the weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Yep, definitely giving up. /s
    I haven't been able to tune in, has Sylvanas been streamed on Heroic for a kill? Could be testing comps anticipating Mythic strats.
    I find it funny using streaming quality as an indicator of skill. Historically the best guilds in this game were bad at streaming before they became famous and then started streaming when their skill was already established.
    Then again I might misjudge the streaming culture of the past ~5 years since now even the odd 15 year old turns streaming into their job.

  7. #227
    My bet is that Thundercats wins!

  8. #228
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    When half the healing specs are basically excluded for half a decade it seems like a problem.

    When half the healing specs are basically excluded for half a decade it seems like a problem.
    Sure, if you are participating in WF race. Doesn't mean much for the rest of the raiders (outside of some niche situations like Kael in CN).

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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I wonder if things would work differently if Ion actually played a Mistweaver or Resto Druid, instead of Shaman.
    Oh, you are one of those "mages are OP cuz Ghostcrawler plays a mage" guys?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-07-10 at 05:46 PM.
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  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    That’s just not true. The utility a shaman brings is useful to the first guild and the 1000th guild. It’s hard to kill a mythic end boss at any rank, so pretending utility like spirit link isn’t helpful is just wrong. Hell, a shammy is op on heroic. Playing a holy priest or resto druid instead of a shaman is just nerfing yourself.

    There’s a reason why there are more shammy healers on sire than those other three specs combined. In fact, if you add up holy, resto, and mistweaver, then multiply by two, you still end up below the number of shaman parses.

    How big does the issue be for you to admit it’s problematic?
    Players have always been sheep that fotm reroll to the best.

    We just watched classic to from massive amounts of warrior dps to almost none while hunter dps logs is up about 3000%.

    Players like and want to stack what is determined as good no matter what. It’s like this across games not just WoW. Go play off meta in LoL.

    Any time there is choice there is a best. Give MW a damage reduction and the playerbase will determine if it’s enough to swap which just changes the same issue to a new class or not enough to swap and the status quo is maintained.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Players have always been sheep that fotm reroll to the best.

    We just watched classic to from massive amounts of warrior dps to almost none while hunter dps logs is up about 3000%.

    Players like and want to stack what is determined as good no matter what. It’s like this across games not just WoW. Go play off meta in LoL.

    Any time there is choice there is a best. Give MW a damage reduction and the playerbase will determine if it’s enough to swap which just changes the same issue to a new class or not enough to swap and the status quo is maintained.
    Don't hate the player. Why play suboptimal character when swapping to a better one is literally so easy. Why be stuck struggling as a mage when you can just reroll warlock (just an example). There is no more emotional attachment to one character, Blizzard successfully destroyed that over the years. And even if there was, emotional attachment doesn't get you group spots, being a meta chaser does.

  11. #231
    Limit is now knocking out H Sylvanas OFFSTREAM....say it aint so Max, say it aint so...

  12. #232
    my main reason for betting on limit is the fact that in BfA if they weren't stubborn they would have claimed every tier

    first raid they should have reset instead of extending
    jaina they should have focused on gearing and replaced the people that screwed up
    queeny again the stubborn attitude of "why would we walk away and rest then take advantage of the hotfix when we can sit here for hours wiping"

    if they keep performing like we have seen even now in their heroic clears on alt toons i think they are gonna have a great win
    first day 5/10
    second day 8/10 maybe
    KT will be a bit of a wall
    sylvanas will take a week or so because of the bugs that are definitely there

  13. #233
    This raid will take 4 weeks to clear. A week for KT and three weeks of gear for Sylv. Blizz has really gone out in make this the craziest race yet,

  14. #234
    Blademaster badmdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trapmaster View Post
    What's so fun about watching the same old guilds competing over world first race like some special ed kids fighting over the same color crayon they wanted?
    Its like every other sport, everytime same teams / countrys batteling. And still people are betting

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Popsickle View Post
    Yesterday was a travel day, hence no streaming. But Max tweeted about an hour ago; "Prob no stream till Tuesday maybe a 30 min one Monday night". Which is odd, because he has stated repeated they would allows stream Heoric...Even "dissing" Echo for turning off their streams.
    They streamed heroic splits all week. Where have you been?

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    They streamed heroic splits all week. Where have you been?
    I’m talking about no streaming on Saturday when they did their H Sylv kills.

  17. #237
    The Lightbringer MrPaladinGuy's Avatar
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    Painsmith Raznal is a fun fight, can't wait to see top guilds clear it on mythic.
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  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by BrioWoW View Post
    This raid will take 4 weeks to clear. A week for KT and three weeks of gear for Sylv. Blizz has really gone out in make this the craziest race yet,
    Vanilla/TBC races says hi. These races nowadays are a joke compared to multiple month races. It took months for Nihilum to clear many hard raids, just imagine raiding 16 hour / day for 7 week for months...

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    Vanilla/TBC races says hi. These races nowadays are a joke compared to multiple month races. It took months for Nihilum to clear many hard raids, just imagine raiding 16 hour / day for 7 week for months...
    You mean the Vanilla/TBC races that have been over day one in Classic? The raids cleared with level 58 characters like Molten Core? Karazhan cleared within two hours day one? Those very races?

    Oh wait, you're the clown who made a thread predicting that classic BWL would last 4-5 days and overall made outlandish claims about Classic raids xD
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-07-11 at 10:02 AM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    You mean the Vanilla/TBC races that have been over day one in Classic? The raids cleared with level 58 characters like Molten Core? Karazhan cleared within two hours day one? Those very races?

    Oh wait, you're the clown who made a thread predicting that classic BWL would last 4-5 days xD
    I mean the original vanilla/TBC, without knowing the fights.

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