9.1 is a huge letdown

[Kathranis]

Considering your mocking replies, you are in my view effectively defending timegating by refusing to accept that attunements and timegating are in fact two different things.

As the argument initially was "Classic / TBC had attunements and attunements are identical to timegating, right?"

I did and i will, there is a design difference between Attunements and timegating.

A lot of attunements were effectively restricted by raid lockouts, which is a form of timegating. Daily quests, daily lockouts on heroics, weekly raid lockouts, currency caps, etc. are all forms of timegating. Nevermind stuff like the Gates of AQ or the three literal gates in the Sunwell that blocked progression.

Even RNG drops are a form of timegating. If WoW truly had zero timegating, everything would be a 100% drop rate and you'd only need to run the content once.

[justandulas]

The common suggestion to unsub if you're not enjoying the fucking game. But apparently it's an alien concept to people who post on forums not to pay for a product that doesn't meet their arbitrary expectations.

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Attunements are completely fucking pointless. Meaningless RP elements designed to artificially gate content for no real compelling reason. Anybody championing the addition of attunements back into the game should be forced to watch, on repeat, exactly how WildStar failed for this precise reasoning.

Wildstar didn't fail for being hardcore, they failed for a myriad of others settings. Do you know the #1 complaint about Wildstar? cuz it wasn't the hardcore nature or attunements.

the #1 complaint they had, by far, was the ART STYLE. It was a very divisive and kinda disney-esque goofy art style and people were looking for a more adult oriented hardcore art style.

The hardcore nature of it wasn't even a top 3 complaint. The art style, the setting, and the combat were the top complaints the team had

[Kralljin]

and still effectively serves the same exact purpose.

No, not really.
A questchain taking 8h to complete isn't the same as a daily quest having me to log in every day in order to get exalted with a faction.

Those 8h are something that i can spend as i see fit, i can do them in a single sitting or split over multiple days, i have complete agency over my playtime.

With timegated elements, that agency is lost.

Wanna complete something as quickly as possible?
Nope, log in every day until you're done.
Wanna finish a certain questchain right now?
Nope sry, next chaper won't happen until next day / week.

This is not having agency over my playtime, this is timegating.

"time gating with extra steps that's also really fucking bad and toxic for the game itself"

No, that's a fucking stupid definition because then virtually anything that requires you to spend time is timegating, in not just WoW, but video games as a whole.

Simply because something requires time, doesn't mean it's timegated, time gated means that the developer enforces that certain steps cannot be completed until the developer allows me to complete it.

Instance lock outs are a form of time gating as well. That is why just saying "time gating is bad" is dumb. Because it isn't about time being used as a gate because Instances are pretty much universally accepted being once a week.

While you're not wrong in the ID lockout aspect being technically timegated, i think there is a difference between doing a raid only once per week or a given questchain until X weeks have passed.

If there was no timegating on Raid lockouts, people would just farm a raid and thus circumvent any form of gear progression by just farming the raid, which frankly breaks the game, i don't see the same thing happening with story related campaigns.

A lot of attunements were effectively restricted by raid lockouts, which is a form of timegating. Daily quests, daily lockouts on heroics, weekly raid lockouts, currency caps, etc. are all forms of timegating.

None of those were required for TBC attunements.

You could technically complete the enterity of the TBC attunements on a single day.

Nevermind stuff like the Gates of AQ or the three literal gates in the Sunwell that blocked progression.

Sunwell, fair enough, but i think the amount of people actually affected by this during TBC was quite small.

Opening of AQ, it's pretty much stretching it, because the only thing i'd consider an actual timegate is the 7 day waiting period after the completed turnin of materials, which served more of buffer to give other guilds also time to have a scarab lord.

[Eosia]

That sort of thing has to be stockholm syndrome.

No. It's called actually reading and comprehending what the devs have said on this issue. Literacy is a powerful thing.

Stockholm Syndrome is bitching this much about the game/devs/company and still giving them money.

Why the flying fuck would you keep players from consuming content?

They're not. They're controlling the SPEED at which players can consume the content.

There can be only 2 answers: either because your content is garbage or its about money. Otherwise I don't see a point, majority of players dont have OCD.

If the answer is 1, then why are you paying for it?
If the answer is 2, then you've just invoked Godwin's Law equivalent for MMOs. If it was about the money, then why design something that encourages people to not subscribe until the time gates go away? In case you've forgotten, tomorrow the timegate for the first week goes away. So someone who just rejoins tomorrow can do two weeks of content. The same thing will happen each subsequent week. So if this content last 4 weeks, then there's an incentive to not subscribe for an extra month.

[Relapses]

Wildstar didn't fail for being hardcore, they failed for a myriad of others settings. Do you know the #1 complaint about Wildstar? cuz it wasn't the hardcore nature or attunements.

the #1 complaint they had, by far, was the ART STYLE. It was a very divisive and kinda disney-esque goofy art style and people were looking for a more adult oriented hardcore art style.

The hardcore nature of it wasn't even a top 3 complaint. The art style, the setting, and the combat were the top complaints the team had

Tell me more about how the failed MMO who couched their success on being a return to "hardcore MMOs" after Blizzard made WoW "too casual friendly," failed for reasons that weren't somehow at least in part related to the ridiculously archaic design decisions they made for content consumption in the game.

[rhorle]

If there was no timegating on Raid lockouts, people would just farm a raid and thus circumvent any form of gear progression by just farming the raid, which frankly breaks the game, i don't see the same thing happening with story related campaigns.

See. This is the problem with time gating. It is only bad when a person doesn't like it and it is good when a person does like it. Limiting gear progression weekly is the same as limiting a the story weekly. Both are artificial gates used to stretch the content out longer and stop a player from completing the content as fast as they want to.

The best part is you asked why would you keep players from consuming content earlier in this thread while just stating you find it acceptable to stop players from consuming content in the name of gear progression. The game does not get broken just because a person can spend 12 hours chain running an instance as much as they want. It just means they get geared quicker and it is not artificially extend to draw out content.

[Relapses]

No, not really.
A questchain taking 8h to complete isn't the same as a daily quest having me to log in every day in order to get exalted with a faction.

Those 8h are something that i can spend as i see fit, i can do them in a single sitting or split over multiple days, i have complete agency over my playtime.

With timegated elements, that agency is lost.

Wanna complete something as quickly as possible?
Nope, log in every day until you're done.
Wanna finish a certain questchain right now?
Nope sry, next chaper won't happen until next day / week.

This is not having agency over my playtime, this is timegating.

No, that's a fucking stupid definition because then virtually anything that requires you to spend time is timegating, in not just WoW, but video games as a whole.

Simply because something requires time, doesn't mean it's timegated, time gated means that the developer enforces that certain steps cannot be completed until the developer allows me to complete it..

Oh man. Okay, so not only is a semantic argument over why attunements aren't time gating, it's apparently a semantic argument over the concept of time itself.

I don't think I can win an argument with somebody who's so obviously in favor of an inferior system of content delivery in a MMO. I'm not even sure why I bothered to reply in the first place. Have a nice day friend.

[justandulas]

Tell me more about how the failed MMO who couched their success on being a return to "hardcore MMOs" after Blizzard made WoW "too casual friendly," failed for reasons that weren't somehow at least in part related to the ridiculously archaic design decisions they made for content consumption in the game.

Because, quite frankly, they chose the wrong art style and the wrong setting. It's as simple as that. People want a more "hardcore MMO" and that includes setting. It needs to be brutal, adult oriented, R rated etc....

Instead, wildstar presented itself like "Disney presents WILDSTAR" and that was the #1 complaint with the game was the art, the setting was #2.

Had they chosen a dungeons and dragons setting, with a darker art style... who knows, because they did a lot of things right, but the setting and art will make a break or break a game 100% of the time

[Kralljin]

Limiting gear progression weekly is the same as limiting a the story weekly. Both are artificial gates used to stretch the content out longer and stop a player from completing the content as fast as they want to.

Please elaborate how it is the "same thing".

When you farm a raid over and over again, your character becomes more powerful, more powerful than other characters of other players, which frankly affects other people, directly or indirectly.
It also affects other areas of the game, when a person has full BiS gear from raids, they are naturally less inclined to do M+ or PvP, because they already have all the BiS gear from raids.

When someone finishes a campaign on a single day, which person is somehow negatively affected by it?

Oh man. Okay, so not only is a semantic argument over why attunements aren't time gating, it's apparently a semantic argument over the concept of time itself.

No, it's not, it's about whether the player has the power to choose how they want to spend their time, that defines timegating.

I don't think I can win an argument with somebody who's so obviously in favor of an inferior system of content delivery in a MMO. I'm not even sure why I bothered to reply in the first place. Have a nice friend.

No and it's obvious that you cannot keep your opinion out of the argument.
I'll say it again, it's completely fine to not like attunements, but pretending they are somehow the same as "current" timegate mechanics is utterly disingenuous and a refusal to see very simple differences based on your dislike for them.

You see a crate of Apples and a crate of Oranges and say "Uhh, Oranges are the same as Apples, except worse!", which is just flat out not true.

And frankly, outside of pointing out that they have some RPG value to them, i did not argue in favour of attunements as i don't think they fit into the modern game.

[rhorle]

Had they chosen a dungeons and dragons setting, with a darker art style... who knows, because they did a lot of things right, but the setting and art will make a break or break a game 100% of the tim.

The Dungeons and Dragons MMO didn't to so well either though it did survive and is still around despite free to play status and a new developer/owner. It is also silly to say the only way an MMO can survive is by being R rated and adult oriented. There is a market for all types which is why games that often get bashed for being childish are super successful.

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When you farm a raid over and over again, your character becomes more powerful, more powerful than other characters of other players, which frankly affects other people, directly or indirectly. It also affects other areas of the game, when a person has full BiS gear from raids, they are naturally less inclined to do M+ or PvP, because they already have all the BiS gear from raids. When someone finishes a campaign on a single day, which person is somehow negatively affected by it?

So time gating is fine when it limits character power because other players can't play as much to progress the same? If a player finishes the story and there is nothing else to do you don't think they are less inclined to keep playing the game? Lol. That is the problem here. You are trying to justify why one is bad and the other is good while not even applying the same arguments equally.

[Kralljin]

So time gating is fine when it limits character power because other players can't play as much to progress the same?

Considering this affects the amount of people you play with (or in the case of PvP, against), yes, it has an impact on other players.

If a player finishes the story and there is nothing else to do you don't think they are less inclined to keep playing the game? Lol. That is the problem here. You are trying to justify why one is bad and the other is good while not even applying the same arguments equally.

No, i am pointing out that i see no reason to timegate soloable content, as it does not affect other players in any fashion.

When i play a single player RPG, i also don't have to wait a week after playing an hour, the game allows me to finish it as quickly as i want.

[justandulas]

The Dungeons and Dragons MMO didn't to so well either though it did survive and is still around despite free to play status and a new developer/owner. It is also silly to say the only way an MMO can survive is by being R rated and adult oriented. There is a market for all types which is why games that often get bashed for being childish are super successful.

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So time gating is fine when it limits character power because other players can't play as much to progress the same? If a player finishes the story and there is nothing else to do you don't think they are less inclined to keep playing the game? Lol. That is the problem here. You are trying to justify why one is bad and the other is good while not even applying the same arguments equally.

2 things, well 3.

First, you aren’t wrong about childish art style games appealing to more people

Secondly, the dungeons and dragons mmo could have been successful and still is relatively, but it came off as very cheap and fans can tell when a product is half ass

Third, not every game needs to be adult oriented, R rated and hardcore… but don’t bill your game as that during development and then come beta it ended up being pg and Pixar inspired. Even age of Conan stuck to its guns regarding a hardcore aesthetic, where as wildstar wanted to appeal to one crowd but aesthetically was more trying to please their kids. It’s a recipe for failure

[rhorle]

No, i am pointing out that i see no reason to timegate soloable content, as it does not affect other players in any fashion. When i play a single player RPG, i also don't have to wait a week after playing an hour, the game allows me to finish it as quickly as i want.

WoW isn't a single player game. If you finish the story and only raid log then it is impacting the amount of people that others play with. The same as you say being able to fully gear your character impacts the amount of people playing. If time gates that serve only to extend content are bad then they need to be bad in all situations that they are used like that.

They story also isn't only solo content since things get unlocked based on story, rep levels, etc. And that can impact other players. For example getting enough Deaths Advance rep allows you to craft 230 BoE's. If the fully story was unlocked that would be quicker and also impact things similar to being able to run a raid as many times for loot as you want.

[Jastall]

There is nothing written in stone that says "Attunements are a requirement", but i personally think they add some flavor to it as it makes more sense to me that the enemy has some magical protections in place that not everybody can just enter into their hideout.

It also doesn't make sense that the raid boss I killed last week respawns so I can loot him again, but this is a sub-based multiplayer game and thus immersion must take a backseat to its gameplay conventions designed to facilitate player grouping and repetitive runs.

If this were a single-player RPG, I'd agree, being able to just walk into the final boss's lair from the get-go would require some story explanation at least (even then some games did it, like Breath of the Wild). This be an MMO where I want to just walk my alt into the raid 4 months after it released without having to go through a long ass questline, or be able to bring in a couple new guildies without everyone having to go back and do the content they're sick of one more time to grant them entry. There's a pretty good reason attunements didn't even survive TBC's patching cycle- hell Blizzard used a more-aggressive-than-usual timegating method for Sunwell itself.

[crusadernero]

Cant see any reason to return for 9.1. Better just stay unsubbed until they deliver something worthwhile.

[Chriisto]

Cant see any reason to return for 9.1. Better just stay unsubbed until they deliver something worthwhile.

Its unfortunate but sadly it's just wow by numbers once again. It doesn't have to be good, it just has to be done is what I imagine they have written on their walls.

[Kralljin]

It also doesn't make sense that the raid boss I killed last week respawns so I can loot him again

I mean, i can one up you on that say that no boss should be killable more than once on a server.

Naturally, the game faces certain constraints because it's still a game and does break the immersion on certain levels.

If this were a single-player RPG, I'd agree, being able to just walk into the final boss's lair from the get-go would require some story explanation at least (even then some games did it, like Breath of the Wild). This be an MMO where I want to just walk my alt into the raid 4 months after it released without having to go through a long ass questline, or be able to bring in a couple new guildies without everyone having to go back and do the content they're sick of one more time to grant them entry. There's a pretty good reason attunements didn't even survive TBC's patching cycle-

Again, i'm not here to argue whether Attunements were good or bad, but point out that they were mechanically different to the timegate mechanics, such as daily or weekly lockout preventing you from finishing a certain questchain / rep faction.

hell Blizzard used a more-aggressive-than-usual timegating method for Sunwell itself.

Again, when this sort of timegating only affected like a population the size of people that went into SWP during the first weeks, this entire debate would have had a completely different dynamic to it.

That aside, (at least as far as i recall it) the intention of this time gate was to have a more competitive race, so that one guild couldn't use an early kill on a boss to get a headstart and stomp their way to the final boss, but rather have a softreset after each boss.

We're talking about a sort of timegating that didn't affect only the 1%, it affected the 0,1%.

WoW isn't a single player game. If you finish the story and only raid log then it is impacting the amount of people that others play with.

In what fashion?
We are talking here about solo content, there is still value to doing anything else besides that with other players.

This is a terrible comparison, when you have your BiS gear, you have effectively completed your character progression for this tier, which makes pretty much any content that awards gear pointless, you don't get much out of story related content.

[rhorle]

First, you aren’t wrong about childish art style games appealing to more people

It isn't childish though. That label has always been silly and is just a way for people to look down on a game for being different. There is a reason why some of the best children movies are also ones adults can enjoy. Since you know they are the ones paying and taking the kids. If a game can come off as cheap and fail because of that then why would you think that isn't the reason why Wildstar failed?

Do you have any links to statements saying that the developers wanted an R rated Adult game? Because everything indicates that they went for the Teen rating to maximize the appeal of their game. Wildstar had the same rating that WoW and many other games have. And they don't all appeal to kids. You seem to have a very narrow and naive view of what is "Adult" despite being active on a gaming fan site.

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We are talking here about solo content, there is still value to doing anything else besides that with other players.

You just got done saying that having less people in the game impacts the game. So you don't see how keeping people in the game to do story content would keep them in the game to do other content? What if that story content requires a dungeon run like Covenants? Or your beloved "RPG" attunements. You couldn't do those solo at the time.

If you don't get much out of story content what is the big deal about it being time gated then? Why shouldn't a person be allowed to gear up their character and be done at the pace they, and their guild/pug, set? They will be done when they are done.

[Mammoon]

The main content of 9.1 is the new raid, dungeon, and seasons for PvP/M+. If you do not enjoy those types of content, then I do not think an MMO-RPG is the best game type for you. In that case, 9.1 (and most other patches) is probably a disappoint. I would suggest finding other games that don't revolve so much around group content.

[Kralljin]

You just got done saying that having less people in the game impacts the game.

No, you just read what you want to read and not i wrote.

When people complete gearing progression, then they are done, they have no reason to do M+ anymore, no PvP, they are done, which is a huge chunk of WoW's endgame.
When people finish a story quest, they still have to progress their character, they still have M+, Raids or PvP left, there is still loads of content.

Simply because someone finished a story campaign for you, doesn't mean they never log on again, unless they are exclusively interested in that, but then i doubt those players actually play with other people because they solely care about solo content.
You will not engage with those people in multiplayer content, because they are not interested in multiplayer content.

People that raid are interested in multiplayer content, because raiding is multiplayer content.