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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Like final fantasy? I don't know how well that would work since wow is based on instanced content progression but i don't get your point. Play the game.
    Not really like FF.

    So its not an mmo let alone rpg, just and instance based online lobby game, thanks for proving the point.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Not really like FF.

    So its not an mmo let alone rpg, just and instance based online lobby game, thanks for proving the point.
    Yes? Was this ever not the case? Everything about wow has been a instanced lobby game with blizzard being utterly desperate to beg, bribe, and bully players out of those lobbies with chores.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Yes? Was this ever not the case? Everything about wow has been a instanced lobby game with blizzard being utterly desperate to beg, bribe, and bully players out of those lobbies with chores.
    Literally 2 last expansions and wotlk, MoP and Cata to some degree, maybe TBC and vanilla.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I agree. Those that say things like "you don't need those rewards, I do because I do hard content" are missing why people play RPGs in the first place. It's not to kill hard bosses (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), it's to pimp out your character.
    This. Character progression in WoW is gear. I don't know if they're still doing it, but they were scaling outdoor content to ilvl at max level. Raiders have always had a huge advantage over non-raiders in all content. They dominated PvP for the longest time, outdoor content is inconsequential, and they had a significantly easier time doing "solo" content like the mage tower. What activities exist in WoW that aren't instanced group content are more difficult for players who don't do it as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    WoW is the one MMO I know that doesn't cater to progression of solo content outside of the leveling experience, and is a reason why so many casuals don't feel the need to stay subbed since Multiplayer aspects are not compelling enough for them.

    The purpose is to illustrate that there is an audience who plays WoW as a singleplayer experience, and they always come back, and that they have no reason to stay. They will come back when a new expansion comes and more leveling content is made, and will leave once thats done again.
    This used to describe me, but there's a design progression from Legion to SL that's one I'm not interested in continuing. I'm not hopeful for the next expansion either, 1) because it's supposed to be the alternating 'bad' expansion (just because SL broke the pattern doesn't mean 10.0 won't continue it) and 2) we already know expansions are worked on years in advance, so I'm guessing 10.0 is 'done' to an extent that they can't fundamentally change too much of it now. I had already skipped BfA because nothing in it was interesting to me and SL was extremely disappointing. Blizzard's got a lot of changing and convincing to do to lure me back after this one.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Literally 2 last expansions and wotlk, MoP and Cata to some degree, maybe TBC and vanilla.
    I guess we can agree to disagree everything about the last two expansions was blizz begging on their knees for people to do something other then instanced content and the player base going " lol nope"

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Blizzard's got a lot of changing and convincing to do to lure me back after this one.
    My wife and I are big housing enthusiasts in MMOs and, talking about it the other day, we realized that at this point not even housing is likely to bring us back to WoW. They've just really designed the game into such a hole that we're not interested in stepping in any longer.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    When you start approaching a game world that is supposed to offer a holistic RPG experience like a mathematical problem, you will end up with current WoW where every activity feeds into this giant equation that effectively boils down to a function for your player power.

    Nothing in this game can exist for its own sake anymore and because of that nothing is designed to stand on its own legs and provide a fun experience. I don't know if this is rooted in a lack of confidence in the work of their own devs or because they don't want to be wasteful with their ressources (I think Ion said that they won't do Legion style class content because it is "wasted" if most players don't play through every campaign). It seems like to them content is only successful if most or all players engage with it. The easiest way to do that is to attach unspecific universally desired rewards (like AP or some currencies) to that content which makes it necessary for your player progression. Naturally, everyone will do world quests if they're the biggest source of AP and everyone will do Torghast if it's your only way to get "legendaries". Therefor these are examples of successful content.

    This is how you end up with a bland experience where lore, class fantasy, challenge and reward structure all become subservient to what is effectively economic concerns. Everything we see in the game today like world quests, torghast, covenants etc. are derivatives of previous forms of content molten down into this unspecific mush so that every class/spec/faction/race can (or rather must) play it because that is the most efficient way to design content. The problem is that when you ask players what (designed) experiences were memorable to them, it's usually class specific and/or not tied to power progression like class quests, suramar, artifacts, mage tower, green fire, old legendary quests (though usually not limited to one class) etc.
    We the players are to blame for that man. "Nothing in this game can exist for its own sake anymore" you say. The designer responsible for the Onyxia Head buff came out and said publicly that when he designed this quest, he thought of it as "Something fun a player gets to do ONCE in their character's lifetime, give in the Head of the big bad dragon to the city watch and see it hanging on the city walls, with a fun buff for people in that area". What did we players do with it? Put it on a timer so we reach TBC levels of power during Classic, and abuse IT, along with Dire Maul buffs (another little fun addition) and Songflower buffs (yet another little fun addition) to go and demolish raid bosses in 40 seconds.

    That is the players fault man, not the developers.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    My wife and I are big housing enthusiasts in MMOs and, talking about it the other day, we realized that at this point not even housing is likely to bring us back to WoW. They've just really designed the game into such a hole that we're not interested in stepping in any longer.
    I admit out side of raiding/mythic plus/ and pvp i don't know what draws players into wow. Even the big three... if another company nails instanced content down but doesn't make people jump through hoops like choreghast...look out blizz.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I admit out side of raiding/mythic plus/ and pvp i don't know what draws players into wow. Even the big three... if another company nails instanced content down but doesn't make people jump through hoops like choreghast...look out blizz.
    I don't have actual numbers, of course, but I have a strong feeling that in recent weeks the number of players of all stripes that have reached a point of "enough!" with WoW has been much greater than typical ... driven both by the content drought, the lackluster content itself and the number of content creators pushing traffic to other games and people are finding they can actually have fun in those other games. I had bounced off of FFXIV once before, but all the YouTubers and streamers jumping on it lately caused me to try it out again and this time it's sticking ... thanks in part to me finally reaching that "enough!" point with WoW.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I don't have actual numbers, of course, but I have a strong feeling that in recent weeks the number of players of all stripes that have reached a point of "enough!" with WoW has been much greater than typical ... driven both by the content drought, the lackluster content itself and the number of content creators pushing traffic to other games and people are finding they can actually have fun in those other games. I had bounced off of FFXIV once before, but all the YouTubers and streamers jumping on it lately caused me to try it out again and this time it's sticking ... thanks in part to me finally reaching that "enough!" point with WoW.
    I could see it. I just found FF to slow and to easy at the top end but I am rather deep in mythic raiding and have been for years. If they shape that up though...well never grinding a "ap" or choreghast is tempting.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I guess we can agree to disagree everything about the last two expansions was blizz begging on their knees for people to do something other then instanced content and the player base going " lol nope"
    You can't disagree with facts. Both legion and bfa was rather easy to get to heroic level gear without stepping foot into raids. That is just a fact.

    And you are absolutely wrong about the second part, it's the furthest from truth sentence. People love outdoor content but when it's shit people don't do it.

    Guess you didn't learn your lesson from WoD. You'll get to that once you realize the only way to continue raiding is to switch to another game
    (spoiler alert, because when blizz loses majority of normal players, mythic raiders won't be enough to sustain development costs.)
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    We the players are to blame for that man. "Nothing in this game can exist for its own sake anymore" you say. The designer responsible for the Onyxia Head buff came out and said publicly that when he designed this quest, he thought of it as "Something fun a player gets to do ONCE in their character's lifetime, give in the Head of the big bad dragon to the city watch and see it hanging on the city walls, with a fun buff for people in that area". What did we players do with it? Put it on a timer so we reach TBC levels of power during Classic, and abuse IT, along with Dire Maul buffs (another little fun addition) and Songflower buffs (yet another little fun addition) to go and demolish raid bosses in 40 seconds.
    It's the developers job to work around player behaviour instead of caving in and doubling-down on whatever dumb shit the top 10% (max) of players are doing. Instead they take these players and put them in as their lead devs in charge of designing the entire game.

    Furthermore, I've listed numerous examples of content that wasn't part of any power progression and was still widely received as great fun content (arguably even more memorable than raids/whatever).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    That is the players fault man, not the developers.
    Absolute nonsense.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I don't have actual numbers, of course, but I have a strong feeling that in recent weeks the number of players of all stripes that have reached a point of "enough!" with WoW has been much greater than typical ... driven both by the content drought, the lackluster content itself and the number of content creators pushing traffic to other games and people are finding they can actually have fun in those other games. I had bounced off of FFXIV once before, but all the YouTubers and streamers jumping on it lately caused me to try it out again and this time it's sticking ... thanks in part to me finally reaching that "enough!" point with WoW.
    I wrote off FFXIV at launch not because I wasn't enjoying it but because of the MSQ. Aside from having never liked instanced group content I also have fluctuating anxiety with it, so to have the entire game progress gated behind dungeons and raids was an automatic no. I decided I would push through it this time and, so far, it hasn't been that bad. The ARR leveling dungeons remind me a lot of Wrath, which was the last time I could tolerate dungeon running. I can't say for certain it's 'sticking' yet, I'm still dreading the mandatory raids, but we'll see how it goes. I like everything else about the game except for that.

    Have you seen this video (Josh Stife Hayes on FFXIV and WoW)? It resonated with me, especially the part about how we keep coming back hoping that the game will be better and it's not. Also, the attachments. I love my characters, I've had some of them for 16 years, I wish I had something I enjoyed doing with them, but when SL took the wind out of my sails of even leveling alts (as an unabashed altoholic) I knew there was a problem. Leveling is so fast now I only get about 10 hours with them before they're in the same SL rut as my main. (Blizzard in their infinite shortsightedness decided to abruptly stop Chromie time at 50.)
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    We the players are to blame for that man. "Nothing in this game can exist for its own sake anymore" you say. The designer responsible for the Onyxia Head buff came out and said publicly that when he designed this quest, he thought of it as "Something fun a player gets to do ONCE in their character's lifetime, give in the Head of the big bad dragon to the city watch and see it hanging on the city walls, with a fun buff for people in that area". What did we players do with it? Put it on a timer so we reach TBC levels of power during Classic, and abuse IT, along with Dire Maul buffs (another little fun addition) and Songflower buffs (yet another little fun addition) to go and demolish raid bosses in 40 seconds.

    That is the players fault man, not the developers.
    I would say it’s the devs fault
    Especially in today’s world where you have gamers min/maxxing Tetris

  15. #415
    What can I say? I love raidlog and try to push higher keys, even If Im not too good. I dont care about housing, pets or even mounts(only those that are drop from current Bosses), If you could add M+ to wod, It would be the perfect expansion for me. With the years, I changed guilds sometimes(less playable time), and always found good ppl to join Discord figth some Bosses and have a good time(Just like play some ball without leave home).
    I know this opinion wont be too popular around here, but maybe you guys need find other games, and stop trying change Wow, It always was a combat game, focused on instances. Its OK If wow will never have 10m players again, different from 2010, there are a lot of good MMOs, and some cater to diferent niches, and this is great.
    Tried to play FFXIV on my last hiatus. The game looked pretty(I like animes), but I got bored with the endgame. But its normal, after ALL, I like raidlog.

    Edit: That said, there are a lot of things I liked to improve. Balance, new classes, specs, talents, new BGs(some 5x5 bgs would look good, I dont like massive pvp, always feel too small), less chores...
    Last edited by Halliax; 2021-07-13 at 11:38 AM.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You can't disagree with facts. Both legion and bfa was rather easy to get to heroic level gear without stepping foot into raids. That is just a fact.

    And you are absolutely wrong about the second part, it's the furthest from truth sentence. People love outdoor content but when it's shit people don't do it.

    Guess you didn't learn your lesson from WoD. You'll get to that once you realize the only way to continue raiding is to switch to another game
    (spoiler alert, because when blizz loses majority of normal players, mythic raiders won't be enough to sustain development costs.)
    --- snip ---

    Yes handing out super powerful gear is blizzard begging people to try to not only raid and no people do not prefer world content. This isn't runescape.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-07-13 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Removed Meme Video

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's the developers job to work around player behaviour instead of caving in and doubling-down on whatever dumb shit the top 10% (max) of players are doing.
    Indeed. It can never, even in principle, be the fault of the players that the game doesn't "work". It can only be the fault of the designers for not designing the game so that, with the players and potential players as they exist, the game works. It is the responsibility of the designers to know their customers; it's not the responsibility of the customers to save the designers.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Indeed. It can never, even in principle, be the fault of the players that the game doesn't "work". It can only be the fault of the designers for not designing the game so that, with the players and potential players as they exist, the game works. It is the responsibility of the designers to know their customers; it's not the responsibility of the customers to save the designers.
    WoWs problems are 10000% player faults.

    Every single change was made because they follow the outcry of people without a clue, and eventually since the game is too old, they switched to trying to keep people occupied as long as possible before they expansion hop again, which again, it doesnt really affect the actual gameplay, it just makes the majority of the people that shouldnt be playing this game, pay more, which just works, so why not.

    I love how you guys act like its some evil circle of developers around the world that gather and go "Today we ignore these players".

    All the problems people cry about over the years, were created because someone else cried about it, LFG/LFR, everything was created for a reason, how you treat it is your problem, not a developers.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Ion and crew are awesome at systems and spreadsheets and metrics and numbers.

    They are horrible at fun.

    Ion has engineered the perfect game. Now if they could only engineer some fun...

    you have to remember that Ion is a lawyer. And as we all know, lawyers are all about fun and not being pedantic over numbers or splitting hairs.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    WoWs problems are 10000% player faults.
    Absolutely not. Even if we stipulate as true 100% of what you wrote about what players have said, and what players do, it cannot be the players fault. That's because it is not the players' responsibility to make the game work. It is the game designers' responsibility to operate within the context of what the players actually are, and take that all into account when they design the game.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

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