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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    RB played a MM Hunter extremely well this tier and ended up at the top end of the DPS while supporting mechanics via our utility. This seems more of a gitgood problem for the majority of hunters than an actual problem with the class.
    "But muh simulatiunz"

    But yeah, I completely agree
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  2. #22
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    If most players of a class have to play at a high level to compete with the average skill of another DPS, that's not a 'get good' situation.

    Expecting a player to work harder than everyone else--just to keep up--isn't good design.
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  3. #23
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No. Stats don't lie. People playing other classes can "git good" too, and anyone playing mythic raids at 80th percentile can't be terrible.

    Mythic, survival/BM are middle of the pack, marks is bottom third.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../28#dataset=80

    Heroic, marks/BM are middle of the pack, survival is terrible. (With nobody actually playing survival, so that probably doesn't reflect actual performance)

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...y=4&dataset=80

    Normal isn't at all competitive, and doesn't apply to your "git gud" hypothesis, but it does reflect how the majority of players are performing. In normal, marks/BM are middle of the pack and survival again is awful.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...y=3&dataset=80

    Now I'm not saying middle of the pack is bad. It's fine. Hunter performance doesn't "demand buffs", as it did last tier. It's much better now! But this is not a "git gud" problem, the ceiling is simply lower for hunters than the specs in the top of the rankings.
    But this is the problem. We have observable streams from the best guilds in the world bringing Hunters and showing them absolutely able to perform well. Simply because the majority of players are unable to match their ability and perform not just well but at the top of what's possible for the class etc is not a class problem. That is by definition a general player ability problem.

    Your real problem is that other classes don't have to put the as much effort into performance to get results than Hunters do and that the majority of players lack the ability to reach the absolute peak of what the class is capable of. That's nothing to be ashamed of. I couldn't compete with them and my DPS is middle of the road as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    If most players of a class have to play at a high level to compete with the average skill of another DPS, that's not a 'get good' situation.

    Expecting a player to work harder than everyone else--just to keep up--isn't good design.
    It kind of is a gitgud situation as the class can still reach a competitive level with the other classes. I agree that requiring more ability to do what other's can do by being average is a class design problem but it doesn't make the class uncompetitive.

  4. #24
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    But this is the problem. We have observable streams from the best guilds in the world bringing Hunters and showing them absolutely able to perform well. Simply because the majority of players are unable to match their ability and perform not just well but at the top of what's possible for the class etc is not a class problem. That is by definition a general player ability problem.

    Your real problem is that other classes don't have to put the as much effort into performance to get results than Hunters do and that the majority of players lack the ability to reach the absolute peak of what the class is capable of. That's nothing to be ashamed of. I couldn't compete with them and my DPS is middle of the road as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It kind of is a gitgud situation as the class can still reach a competitive level with the other classes. I agree that requiring more ability to do what other's can do by being average is a class design problem but it doesn't make the class uncompetitive.
    It's true, but I feel these concerns are generally held by the people who aren't good enough to keep things competitive in the first place. So telling em just to get better because the best players live up to their hype feels overly dismissive. That being said, it's not like the class is dead. Hunter almost always has a place mechanically alone.
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  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire
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    Who cares really. There are several hunters in my raid group. Some of them do shit dmg, others do great dmg. The majority of players doesn't raid mythic world first where their slightly worse damage could matter.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Simply because the majority of players are unable to match their ability and perform not just well but at the top of what's possible for the class etc is not a class problem. That is by definition a general player ability problem.
    No. If the 80th percentile of mythic raiders can't do it, saying "the majority can't do it" is, while technically correct, a vast understatement.

  7. #27
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No. If the 80th percentile of mythic raiders can't do it, saying "the majority can't do it" is, while technically correct, a vast understatement.
    But essentially correct.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Beatman View Post
    Who cares really. There are several hunters in my raid group. Some of them do shit dmg, others do great dmg. The majority of players doesn't raid mythic world first where their slightly worse damage could matter.
    Just because I read this very often, but actually the damage matters most for guilds that are NOT competing in world first races, because it usually allows to skip mechanics and minimizes the possibilities for mistakes.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    But essentially correct.
    It's absolutely correct, but also misleading and does not support the argument. It's like saying "the majority of people can't run a 4 minute mile". Well, yeah.

    If you can't run a 4 minute mile, is that because you need to git gud? I mean, technically, yes. But really, no.

  10. #30
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It's absolutely correct, but also misleading and does not support the argument. It's like saying "the majority of people can't run a 4 minute mile". Well, yeah.

    If you can't run a 4 minute mile, is that because you need to git gud? I mean, technically, yes. But really, no.
    That really depends on the context of the 4 minute mile discussion. If it's to go into the Olympics for a 4 minute mile event then yes it's correct you should gitgud. Correct is correct. It's kind of a black and white context when discussing if something is right or wrong. It can be done, ergo people can do it if they're willing to put time and effort into improving their game instead of whining on a forum that they need buffs.

  11. #31
    Yes, that's the difference between technically correct and meaningfully correct.

  12. #32
    I'm just amazed Antlers is as good as it is. Kind of a sleeper legendary, I heard almost no speculation or chatter about it during PTR, and it's preeetty good.
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    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    I'm just amazed Antlers is as good as it is. Kind of a sleeper legendary, I heard almost no speculation or chatter about it during PTR, and it's preeetty good.
    It is good in encounters where hunters are strong (aoe burst)

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    RB played a MM Hunter extremely well this tier and ended up at the top end of the DPS while supporting mechanics via our utility. This seems more of a gitgood problem for the majority of hunters than an actual problem with the class.
    Never take world-first-race kills as representation - there's tons of stuff going on there most guilds will never actually have to deal with. Unless you actually plan on focusing on that kind of performance, the most realistic kind of representation for a class/spec will develop over the next weeks. That's not to say that hunters won't do well - but one RB on the WF kill does not a general rule make.

  15. #35
    Blademaster Aloie's Avatar
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    Yeah idk at this point. I’m just glad Survival still gets to shine in m+ generally speaking. It might not be the best but it easily tops your own meters when a skilled user is behind the keyboard.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    I'm just amazed Antlers is as good as it is. Kind of a sleeper legendary, I heard almost no speculation or chatter about it during PTR, and it's preeetty good.
    I use it for every boss in SOD. I like it. I think my best rank was 99th and got some 95-98 too.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    I use it for every boss in SOD. I like it. I think my best rank was 99th and got some 95-98 too.
    That's great to hear, my best rank was a short lived R10 on Heroic Painsmith, now it's down to like 250th. Good times.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    This is your fault.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    RB played a MM Hunter extremely well this tier and ended up at the top end of the DPS while supporting mechanics via our utility. This seems more of a gitgood problem for the majority of hunters than an actual problem with the class.
    Unfortunately that’s wrong. Go look at logs, I just saw a hunter with the mythic 259 bow, chaos bane and full 252 gear sans one ring at 246 and he did almost 4K dps less than a Balance druid in 236-246 gear with a 194 trinket. Hunter DPS is still bad even after buff

  19. #39
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorel88 View Post
    Unfortunately that’s wrong. Go look at logs, I just saw a hunter with the mythic 259 bow, chaos bane and full 252 gear sans one ring at 246 and he did almost 4K dps less than a Balance druid in 236-246 gear with a 194 trinket. Hunter DPS is still bad even after buff
    Completely irrelevant to what I actually said but ok.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorel88 View Post
    Unfortunately that’s wrong. Go look at logs, I just saw a hunter with the mythic 259 bow, chaos bane and full 252 gear sans one ring at 246 and he did almost 4K dps less than a Balance druid in 236-246 gear with a 194 trinket. Hunter DPS is still bad even after buff
    What fight and spec may i ask ?

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