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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Again: the point of ostracization is not to convert people from bigotry. It's a public safety measure.
    my god those four weeks after Trump left office did more for my mental health than any amount of therapy could do over a decade.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I just know that your way does not work and makes them bigger bigot.
    Your method of appeasement and excuse making for bad behavior doesn't seem to work.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And replaced it with a hateful, anti-science, anti-thinking regime that calls everyone they don't like "gay" and cheers on clearcutting the rainforest. Not exactly an improvement.

    Odd that you'd think that's a "good" thing.



    They're regressing right now dude, not progressing.



    "Those racist, hateful, homophobic people just need to blow off some steam every now and then!"

    Not a great argument either.
    Are you sure you don't want to implement "The Purge"? People like PC2 would love it, I think.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It might be time to start having some serious philosophical discussions about the validity of democracy as a model.

    The mantra was always that it prevented extreme viewpoints by requiring the support of the masses, and frankly, the last decade or so have shown that to be an outright fuckin' lie.

    I say this as someone who's always supported democratic ideals and who doesn't have an answer.
    Democracy always had its issues. It is always prone to being kneecaped by demagoguery.

    Plato's Republic has already pointed this is out in the earliest days of democracy.

    Democracy, modern liberal democracy, democracy as we understand it and experience it today, born out of the Enlightenment has very heavily relied on humanist Enlightenment thought and Enlightenment institutions such as public education and a certain respect for empiricism to reign in the worst tendencies of democracy.

    The problem is, what do you do when the systems and institutions we rely on to moderate democracy are gradually eroded to the point where they lose their effectiveness?

    A logical answer would be reinforcing said systems and institutions before they are irredeemably weakened.

    The problem is, the scale of the problem is often not fully realized until it might be too late.

    Like honest to God.... Imagine if on the 6th that mob would have made it into the House chambers before the evacuation. That's a nightmare scenario and even if somehow Biden would have still been inaugurated, the institutional damage would have been irreversible.

    The US for example still has now, a brief window, possibly until 2022 to do sufficient reform to save itself, but it's a rapidly closing window and I fear we're blowing it.

    Brazil hopefully goes 180 and Bolsonaro loses bad enough to lose all notions of legitimacy. Because if he will manage to hold onto any shred of it, I just don't see him ever giving up power.

  5. #105
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Are you sure you don't want to implement "The Purge"? People like PC2 would love it, I think.
    It will forever amuse me that people don't get that movie is a satire specifically about privileged middle class people who social darwinism only to find that the only thing making them "fitter" than the rest of society is...society. Lul.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    There is vigorously opposing (which is good) and calling them or those (evil) which is stupid and not productive of anything. They will surely listen and change their opinion once you start to call them evil. I am sure of it !
    I'm fairly certain Endus isn't calling them evil in an attempt to convert them. He's well aware that they have left morals and ethics behind a long time ago.
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  7. #107
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Are you sure you don't want to implement "The Purge"? People like PC2 would love it, I think.
    I don't want a purge where people go around killing and thieving without legal consequences. I'm against violence and destruction. People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

    We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.
    Which is why vile bigots like Boslonaro should be opposed loudly and vigorously, yet you claim we're being too mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.
    These were always garbage positions no matter what the "current year" is. It's not bizarre in the slightest.

  9. #109
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Democracy always had its issues. It is always prone to being kneecaped by demagoguery.

    Plato's Republic has already pointed this is out in the earliest days of democracy.

    Democracy, modern liberal democracy, democracy as we understand it and experience it today, born out of the Enlightenment has very heavily relied on humanist Enlightenment thought and Enlightenment institutions such as public education and a certain respect for empiricism to reign in the worst tendencies of democracy.

    The problem is, what do you do when the systems and institutions we rely on to moderate democracy are gradually eroded to the point where they lose their effectiveness?

    A logical answer would be reinforcing said systems and institutions before they are irredeemably weakened.

    The problem is, the scale of the problem is often not fully realized until it might be too late.

    Like honest to God.... Imagine if on the 6th that mob would have made it into the House chambers before the evacuation. That's a nightmare scenario and even if somehow Biden would have still been inaugurated, the institutional damage would have been irreversible.

    The US for example still has now, a brief window, possibly until 2022 to do sufficient reform to save itself, but it's a rapidly closing window and I fear we're blowing it.

    Brazil hopefully goes 180 and Bolsonaro loses bad enough to lose all notions of legitimacy. Because if he will manage to hold onto any shred of it, I just don't see him ever giving up power.
    I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.

    I don't think it coincidental that in the developed world at least, the most extreme and resurgent examples of fascism that we've seen originate specifically in Anglophone countries with large tabloid "news" sectors who are making it impossible to conduct democratic government by essentially poisoning the well of information with... *sigh*... fake news. Regardless of how much I've come to hate that term you can source a lot of the problems with 2016, Brexit, Australia's perpetually corrupt government, Canada's shennanigans to the relationship the involved countries have with their news sectors - with the notable exception of New Zealand, which still has a much more moderated media sector where news is generally required to be news.

    The other factor is social media and how media illiterate people are when it comes to separating fact from fiction and being led down rabbitholes of radicalization. We simply haven't actualized the regulatory framework to ensure good fact checking the way many countries have with their more traditional media sectors.

    I am optimistic that civilization of some sort will survive and exceed ours in terms of technological and social development. I am not optimistic that many of our present political structures will survive that transition; the take I'd side with is that future generations will look back at this period similarly to the Crisis of the Third Century or the Late Middle Ages, or the Reformation. A period of intense upheaval and transition during which an increasingly interlinked society clarified some of its inherent contradictions.

    Fuck Hegel.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I don't want a purge where people go around killing and thieving without legal consequences. I'm against violence and destruction. People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

    We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.
    Ahh yes the guy who was arguing for deregulation and destruction of the amazon rainforest and lungs of the earth, is totally against destruction. I love the inconsistency that every libertarian spews.

  11. #111
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It will forever amuse me that people don't get that movie is a satire specifically about privileged middle class people who social darwinism only to find that the only thing making them "fitter" than the rest of society is...society. Lul.
    People thought Starship Trooper was a pro-facism movie, so let's not be surprised about most missing the point of The Purge.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    People thought Starship Trooper was a pro-facism movie, so let's not be surprised about most missing the point of The Purge.
    The conclusion here is that all movies are problematic and should be cancelled.

    Sorry everyone civilization's shut down, we're all returning to the trees. Douglas Adams was right.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The conclusion here is that all movies are problematic and should be cancelled.

    Sorry everyone civilization's shut down, we're all returning to the trees. Douglas Adams was right.
    Tbh, looking at the shit currently popular in cinemas, I'm enclined to believe movies were a mistake.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.

    I don't think it coincidental that in the developed world at least, the most extreme and resurgent examples of fascism that we've seen originate specifically in Anglophone countries with large tabloid "news" sectors who are making it impossible to conduct democratic government by essentially poisoning the well of information with... *sigh*... fake news. Regardless of how much I've come to hate that term you can source a lot of the problems with 2016, Brexit, Australia's perpetually corrupt government, Canada's shennanigans to the relationship the involved countries have with their news sectors - with the notable exception of New Zealand, which still has a much more moderated media sector where news is generally required to be news.

    The other factor is social media and how media illiterate people are when it comes to separating fact from fiction and being led down rabbitholes of radicalization. We simply haven't actualized the regulatory framework to ensure good fact checking the way many countries have with their more traditional media sectors.

    I am optimistic that civilization of some sort will survive and exceed ours in terms of technological and social development. I am not optimistic that many of our present political structures will survive that transition; the take I'd side with is that future generations will look back at this period similarly to the Crisis of the Third Century or the Late Middle Ages, or the Reformation. A period of intense upheaval and transition during which an increasingly interlinked society clarified some of its inherent contradictions.

    Fuck Hegel.
    Basically the plan of FOX news turning working class people against each other is working way too well. And destroying faith in our institutions is also having a major negative impact.

    I do think that civilization will undergo massive changes in the next few decades. I am pessimistic about the short term future, but reasonably optimistic about the long term future. I am sure I'll be around to see the decline - I hope I live long enough to see the resurgence afterwards.

  15. #115
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    How goes the "conversion" of bigots when you tell them they are evil ? Go try that on some and come back tell us how it went (and how many days you had to stay in the hospital) ?
    Why on Earth would you ever think I have the least bit of desire to "convert" anyone? I'm perfectly satisfied ensuring they face public scorn and ridicule the moment they reveal themselves, tarnishing their reputation. Same reason I'm not interested in "converting" wifebeaters, and convincing them that smacking their wife around is "wrong"; we don't need their agreement, we just need to ensure they face the consequences (legal, in that case) for their abusive conduct.

    Plus, there's a pretty basic mantra when it comes to issues like hatred and bigotry; you can't reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into. Bigotry and hate are, by definition, irrational and unreasonable. There is no talking them out of it. The best we can do is to identify them publicly so that everyone knows to keep them at a social distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'm fairly certain Endus isn't calling them evil in an attempt to convert them. He's well aware that they have left morals and ethics behind a long time ago.
    It's really fuckin' weird when they start asking me why I don't want to be friends with the Klan members sporting swastika tattoos and chanting "WHITE POWER" all the time. Why should I invest a massive effort into trying to "convert" those who don't want to be converted and will resist it every step of the way? It's a waste of my time and effort.

    You don't try and convince a rattlesnake not to bite you. You just note where the snake is coiled up and don't go near the snake. Unless you're going in prepped to grab the snake and make sure it's put somewhere it's not a threat to anyone again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    People thought Starship Trooper was a pro-facism movie, so let's not be surprised about most missing the point of The Purge.
    Also how a solid 80% of Fight Club fans totally miss the point of the movie and book.

    If you think it's about how awesome fight clubs are and how awesome Tyler Durden is and how we gotta fight back against the man? Yeah, you're the butt of the joke that Fight Club was telling, and you somehow don't get that it's mocking you.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-07-06 at 08:40 PM.


  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    -- I swear you could put up a brick wall with a sign saying "Do Not Run Headfirst Into This" and there'd be a bevy of libertarians lining up to try and Platform Nine and Three Quarter it before the mortar's dry.
    Would it be wrong to say that I'd pay to see that?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I don't want a purge where people go around killing and thieving without legal consequences. I'm against violence and destruction. People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

    We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.
    Ok, so why do you endorse Trump being an outlet for intolerant and violent people? You think that's helpful and constructive? Do you open the door for the robber of a bank just to be helpful and constructive towards that robber, too?
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.
    That was a big chunk of Plato's criticism of democracy.

    Hell, he even nailed the bit with growing wealth gap being the root trigger for the gradual destabilization process.

    The Enlightenment idea that the masses when provided with sufficient education and information (free speech&press) will act akin to the Plato's Philosopher King was the modern innovation which would have suggested that Plato was wrong.

    Unfortunately now we are experiencing that crisis of information /education you spoke of that is proving that under the right conditions... Plato wasn't wrong.

    Now whether the people creating those conditions (like everyone who works at Fox or the Murdochs or whatnot) are aware or not of the monster they are unleashing is a different question.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Now whether the people creating those conditions (like everyone who works at Fox or the Murdochs or whatnot) are aware or not of the monster they are unleashing is a different question.
    They are, and they don't care. They'll have a life of fabulous wealth and be long dead before the worst aspects metastasize.

    "I got mine, fuck everyone else."

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Hell, he even nailed the bit with growing wealth gap being the root trigger for the gradual destabilization process.
    Except that's not true that the world is "destabilizing" in any significant way. There's been a slight uptick in violence and crime caused by recent events but violence is still much lower than historical rates, and we've been making rapid progress in terms of Covid and the pandemic. That misperception is caused by selective media coverage, more coverage of bad things, and there's a lot of bored first worlders who overdramatize everything.
    Let's spread optimism and defeat pessimism! (HumanProgress.org)

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