Bolsonaro's Presidency

[Slant]

There is vigorously opposing (which is good) and calling them or those (evil) which is stupid and not productive of anything. They will surely listen and change their opinion once you start to call them evil. I am sure of it !

I'm fairly certain Endus isn't calling them evil in an attempt to convert them. He's well aware that they have left morals and ethics behind a long time ago.

[PC2]

Are you sure you don't want to implement "The Purge"? People like PC2 would love it, I think.

I don't want a purge where people go around killing and thieving without legal consequences. I'm against violence and destruction. People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.

[Edge-]

People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

Which is why vile bigots like Boslonaro should be opposed loudly and vigorously, yet you claim we're being too mean.

We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.

These were always garbage positions no matter what the "current year" is. It's not bizarre in the slightest.

[Elegiac]

Democracy always had its issues. It is always prone to being kneecaped by demagoguery.

Plato's Republic has already pointed this is out in the earliest days of democracy.

Democracy, modern liberal democracy, democracy as we understand it and experience it today, born out of the Enlightenment has very heavily relied on humanist Enlightenment thought and Enlightenment institutions such as public education and a certain respect for empiricism to reign in the worst tendencies of democracy.

The problem is, what do you do when the systems and institutions we rely on to moderate democracy are gradually eroded to the point where they lose their effectiveness?

A logical answer would be reinforcing said systems and institutions before they are irredeemably weakened.

The problem is, the scale of the problem is often not fully realized until it might be too late.

Like honest to God.... Imagine if on the 6th that mob would have made it into the House chambers before the evacuation. That's a nightmare scenario and even if somehow Biden would have still been inaugurated, the institutional damage would have been irreversible.

The US for example still has now, a brief window, possibly until 2022 to do sufficient reform to save itself, but it's a rapidly closing window and I fear we're blowing it.

Brazil hopefully goes 180 and Bolsonaro loses bad enough to lose all notions of legitimacy. Because if he will manage to hold onto any shred of it, I just don't see him ever giving up power.

I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.

I don't think it coincidental that in the developed world at least, the most extreme and resurgent examples of fascism that we've seen originate specifically in Anglophone countries with large tabloid "news" sectors who are making it impossible to conduct democratic government by essentially poisoning the well of information with... *sigh*... fake news. Regardless of how much I've come to hate that term you can source a lot of the problems with 2016, Brexit, Australia's perpetually corrupt government, Canada's shennanigans to the relationship the involved countries have with their news sectors - with the notable exception of New Zealand, which still has a much more moderated media sector where news is generally required to be news.

The other factor is social media and how media illiterate people are when it comes to separating fact from fiction and being led down rabbitholes of radicalization. We simply haven't actualized the regulatory framework to ensure good fact checking the way many countries have with their more traditional media sectors.

I am optimistic that civilization of some sort will survive and exceed ours in terms of technological and social development. I am not optimistic that many of our present political structures will survive that transition; the take I'd side with is that future generations will look back at this period similarly to the Crisis of the Third Century or the Late Middle Ages, or the Reformation. A period of intense upheaval and transition during which an increasingly interlinked society clarified some of its inherent contradictions.

Fuck Hegel.

[beanman12345]

I don't want a purge where people go around killing and thieving without legal consequences. I'm against violence and destruction. People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.

Ahh yes the guy who was arguing for deregulation and destruction of the amazon rainforest and lungs of the earth, is totally against destruction. I love the inconsistency that every libertarian spews.

[Belize]

It will forever amuse me that people don't get that movie is a satire specifically about privileged middle class people who social darwinism only to find that the only thing making them "fitter" than the rest of society is...society. Lul.

People thought Starship Trooper was a pro-facism movie, so let's not be surprised about most missing the point of The Purge.

[Elegiac]

People thought Starship Trooper was a pro-facism movie, so let's not be surprised about most missing the point of The Purge.

The conclusion here is that all movies are problematic and should be cancelled.

Sorry everyone civilization's shut down, we're all returning to the trees. Douglas Adams was right.

[Belize]

The conclusion here is that all movies are problematic and should be cancelled.

Sorry everyone civilization's shut down, we're all returning to the trees. Douglas Adams was right.

Tbh, looking at the shit currently popular in cinemas, I'm enclined to believe movies were a mistake.

[Omega10]

I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.

I don't think it coincidental that in the developed world at least, the most extreme and resurgent examples of fascism that we've seen originate specifically in Anglophone countries with large tabloid "news" sectors who are making it impossible to conduct democratic government by essentially poisoning the well of information with... *sigh*... fake news. Regardless of how much I've come to hate that term you can source a lot of the problems with 2016, Brexit, Australia's perpetually corrupt government, Canada's shennanigans to the relationship the involved countries have with their news sectors - with the notable exception of New Zealand, which still has a much more moderated media sector where news is generally required to be news.

The other factor is social media and how media illiterate people are when it comes to separating fact from fiction and being led down rabbitholes of radicalization. We simply haven't actualized the regulatory framework to ensure good fact checking the way many countries have with their more traditional media sectors.

I am optimistic that civilization of some sort will survive and exceed ours in terms of technological and social development. I am not optimistic that many of our present political structures will survive that transition; the take I'd side with is that future generations will look back at this period similarly to the Crisis of the Third Century or the Late Middle Ages, or the Reformation. A period of intense upheaval and transition during which an increasingly interlinked society clarified some of its inherent contradictions.

Fuck Hegel.

Basically the plan of FOX news turning working class people against each other is working way too well. And destroying faith in our institutions is also having a major negative impact.

I do think that civilization will undergo massive changes in the next few decades. I am pessimistic about the short term future, but reasonably optimistic about the long term future. I am sure I'll be around to see the decline - I hope I live long enough to see the resurgence afterwards.

[Endus]

How goes the "conversion" of bigots when you tell them they are evil ? Go try that on some and come back tell us how it went (and how many days you had to stay in the hospital) ?

Why on Earth would you ever think I have the least bit of desire to "convert" anyone? I'm perfectly satisfied ensuring they face public scorn and ridicule the moment they reveal themselves, tarnishing their reputation. Same reason I'm not interested in "converting" wifebeaters, and convincing them that smacking their wife around is "wrong"; we don't need their agreement, we just need to ensure they face the consequences (legal, in that case) for their abusive conduct.

Plus, there's a pretty basic mantra when it comes to issues like hatred and bigotry; you can't reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into. Bigotry and hate are, by definition, irrational and unreasonable. There is no talking them out of it. The best we can do is to identify them publicly so that everyone knows to keep them at a social distance.

I'm fairly certain Endus isn't calling them evil in an attempt to convert them. He's well aware that they have left morals and ethics behind a long time ago.

It's really fuckin' weird when they start asking me why I don't want to be friends with the Klan members sporting swastika tattoos and chanting "WHITE POWER" all the time. Why should I invest a massive effort into trying to "convert" those who don't want to be converted and will resist it every step of the way? It's a waste of my time and effort.

You don't try and convince a rattlesnake not to bite you. You just note where the snake is coiled up and don't go near the snake. Unless you're going in prepped to grab the snake and make sure it's put somewhere it's not a threat to anyone again.

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People thought Starship Trooper was a pro-facism movie, so let's not be surprised about most missing the point of The Purge.

Also how a solid 80% of Fight Club fans totally miss the point of the movie and book.

If you think it's about how awesome fight clubs are and how awesome Tyler Durden is and how we gotta fight back against the man? Yeah, you're the butt of the joke that Fight Club was telling, and you somehow don't get that it's mocking you.

[Shadowferal]

-- I swear you could put up a brick wall with a sign saying "Do Not Run Headfirst Into This" and there'd be a bevy of libertarians lining up to try and Platform Nine and Three Quarter it before the mortar's dry.

Would it be wrong to say that I'd pay to see that?

[Slant]

I don't want a purge where people go around killing and thieving without legal consequences. I'm against violence and destruction. People should only be helpful and constructive towards other people. Period.

We're in 2021 though so these positions make you an evil bigot in modern times. It's rather bizarre.

Ok, so why do you endorse Trump being an outlet for intolerant and violent people? You think that's helpful and constructive? Do you open the door for the robber of a bank just to be helpful and constructive towards that robber, too?

[Mihalik]

I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.

That was a big chunk of Plato's criticism of democracy.

Hell, he even nailed the bit with growing wealth gap being the root trigger for the gradual destabilization process.

The Enlightenment idea that the masses when provided with sufficient education and information (free speech&press) will act akin to the Plato's Philosopher King was the modern innovation which would have suggested that Plato was wrong.

Unfortunately now we are experiencing that crisis of information /education you spoke of that is proving that under the right conditions... Plato wasn't wrong.

Now whether the people creating those conditions (like everyone who works at Fox or the Murdochs or whatnot) are aware or not of the monster they are unleashing is a different question.

[Edge-]

Now whether the people creating those conditions (like everyone who works at Fox or the Murdochs or whatnot) are aware or not of the monster they are unleashing is a different question.

They are, and they don't care. They'll have a life of fabulous wealth and be long dead before the worst aspects metastasize.

"I got mine, fuck everyone else."

[PC2]

Hell, he even nailed the bit with growing wealth gap being the root trigger for the gradual destabilization process.

Except that's not true that the world is "destabilizing" in any significant way. There's been a slight uptick in violence and crime caused by recent events but violence is still much lower than historical rates, and we've been making rapid progress in terms of Covid and the pandemic. That misperception is caused by selective media coverage, more coverage of bad things, and there's a lot of bored first worlders who overdramatize everything.

[Elegiac]

They are, and they don't care. They'll have a life of fabulous wealth and be long dead before the worst aspects metastasize.

"I got mine, fuck everyone else."

This. The people who actually have power to enact immediate change are entirely cognizant of the costs of their actions.

- - - Updated - - -

Except that's not true that the world is "destabilizing" in any significant way.

The Gulf of Mexico is literally on fire and the most powerful country in the world elected a reality television star to its highest office.

If that doesn't scream "mandate of heaven is long gone" I don't know what does, rofl.

[Slant]

That was a big chunk of Plato's criticism of democracy.

Hell, he even nailed the bit with growing wealth gap being the root trigger for the gradual destabilization process.

The Enlightenment idea that the masses when provided with sufficient education and information (free speech&press) will act akin to the Plato's Philosopher King was the modern innovation which would have suggested that Plato was wrong.

Unfortunately now we are experiencing that crisis of information /education you spoke of that is proving that under the right conditions... Plato wasn't wrong.

Now whether the people creating those conditions (like everyone who works at Fox or the Murdochs or whatnot) are aware or not of the monster they are unleashing is a different question.

The game's not up, yet. Western democracies are ramping up efforts to fight the desinformation battle. And the younger generation will be better equipped to deal with it. The problem is mass availability of information and a lack of a proper filter. This is the modern illiteracy that needs to be dealt with. Children need to learn how to handle virtually unlimited information. Just like people had to learn how to decipher information from a book instead of having someone tell you a story (and alter it unconsciously or consciously to deceive you) back in the 15th century.

- - - Updated - - -

Except that's not true that the world is "destabilizing" in any significant way. There's been a slight uptick in violence and crime caused by recent events but violence is still much lower than historical rates, and we've been making rapid progress in terms of Covid and the pandemic. That misperception is caused by selective media coverage, more coverage of bad things, and there's a lot of bored first worlders who overdramatize everything.

Trump destabilised the world. In a different dimension with a NK leader that was grumpy because his shit that morning felt like rocks, he'd have triggered a nuclear war. A war that NATO would not have joined, because he basically pissed every ally off the US ever had. In that dimension, the US would be smoking ruins right now. The EU is destabilised to some degree because of Brexit, too.

This is not overdramatisation, this is the real world that you apparently refuse to see.

[Flarelaine]

I have a pet theory that a lot of the failures of democracy that we've seen in the past few decades are less a result of democracy not being a good model of government, but rather we're in the midst of a crisis of information.

I don't think it coincidental that in the developed world at least, the most extreme and resurgent examples of fascism that we've seen originate specifically in Anglophone countries with large tabloid "news" sectors who are making it impossible to conduct democratic government by essentially poisoning the well of information with... *sigh*... fake news.

Eh, the problem is not even fake news as such. I mean, it's there, but even without it, there's just too much information. Most people are not willing (and some would argue not able) to make the effort to assimilate that much information into a coherent and complex picture of the world. This refusal generates demand for simplistic views and this is served by... fake news, I guess.

[Mihalik]

That misperception is caused by selective media coverage, more coverage of bad things, and there's a lot of bored first worlders who overdramatize everything.

Selective media coverage?

You mean how the media chose to cover a lynch mob raiding Congress seeking to overthrow a democratically elected government and interrupt the peaceful transition of power on which the survival of our democracy depends on instead of covering what exactly?

Media sensationalism is one thing...



...this was something else.

Reading your stubborn inanities is actually taxing.

[tehealadin]

Eh, the problem is not even fake news as such. I mean, it's there, but even without it, there's just too much information. Most people are not willing (and some would argue not able) to make the effort to assimilate that much information into a coherent and complex picture of the world. This refusal generates demand for simplistic views and this is served by... fake news, I guess.

It hasn't been helped by media outlets, starting with Fox (on the TV at least) who recognise that getting people worked up and playing to their worst fears is very good for ratings, or in the online sphere, good for engagement and clicks. It isn't necessarily fake news in this case, but spin on actual events designed to create a particular emotional response. There seemed to be an acceleration of this during the Trump years, with more left leaning outlets playing the Fox game (before anyone jumps on my back, I am not saying Trump is good or anything, just an observation on reporting) and from what I gather, doing very well out of it. So instead of watching the news and getting a sense of what is going on in the world, you get different tribes getting a different version of reality, with clear incentives to keep pushing in that direction.

In the UK we have a new "news" channel starting called GB News, very much Fox inspired. The UK TV news has never been as blatantly partisan as the US TV news, this is a response to a problem that didn't exist, the UK has no version of CNN, Channel 4 news has a slight left of centre bias, but it is marginal and has a clear focus on reporting the news as opposed to being activists. They even have a segment called woke watch, not to derail, that term means different things to different people, and I certainly have issues with what some might call woke ideology and its creeping influence on certain cultural institutions, however this is not the answer to it, and makes it seem much worse than it actually is, this is a road that the UK news media didn't and don't need to go down.

None of this is necessarily "fake", it depends on what you define fake news as (and I think there is a debate to be had about that, blatant lies vs heavy editorialising), often reporting on actual events, but spinning it in such a way as to elicit a particular emotional response, that ends up being deeply divisive.