Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
    Posts
    5,537
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Reminds me of that one guy they invented for WoD, something Deadeye. Had a big introduction for him at the start and then we don't see him again until the last raid.

    Not sure if sarcasm or not. Not willing to take that bait.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Not sure if sarcasm or not. Not willing to take that bait.
    ?? Did I miss a quest chain with him?
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  3. #23
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,024
    Uninspired blob in humanoid shape with the personality of a dead beaver.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force DeltrusDisc's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    20,085
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I don't think we are supposed to like him, since he is a villain.


    But given the massive lack of character development for him I would have to say I'm a strong "indifferent" to whatever happens to him.


    I truly think Blizzard is banking on the "mysterious, intentions yet to be revealed" trope with the inevitable "gotcha!" moment that is to explain everything retroactively.
    I liked Illidan - a villain.
    I liked Kel'Thuzad - a villain.
    I liked The Lich King - a villain.
    I like Darth Vader - a villain.
    I like Emperor Palpatine - a villain.

    I do not like The Jailer - a villain.
    I did not like Snoke - a villain.

    Wow, it's almost like them being a villain doesn't matter - what matters is good storytelling and design.
    "A flower.
    Yes. Upon your return, I will gift you a beautiful flower."

    "Remember. Remember... that we once lived..."

    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
    Posts
    5,537
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    ?? Did I miss a quest chain with him?

    Kilrogg Deadeye wasn't just created for WoD, lol

  6. #26
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,024
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Reminds me of that one guy they invented for WoD, something Deadeye. Had a big introduction for him at the start and then we don't see him again until the last raid.

    ???? Killrog was part of both the first and second war, leading the Bleeding Hollow clan.
    He wasn't invented for wod.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  7. #27
    I mean, yeah, I thought Lei Shen was fantastic and that it was a waste to kill him off so completely so soon, and he was invented for a single patch.

    Generic bald blue man so far has been the epitome of 'loot pinata' design I've ever seen.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  8. #28
    I don't think the Jailer is anything worse than we had before.

    The whole setup around the Jailer is way more interesting than people give it credit for:
    He was supposedly a good guy that turned "evil" and got imprisoned by his fellas.
    But unlike a generic villian the circumstances around him actually point to the direction of him being right to a certain degree.

    All he wants is to press the reset button because he thinks there is not enough free will going around nowadays (with even the afterlives being heavily ordered).
    We have basically got confirmation now that Bastion was indeed a shithole and now with the Forsworn rejoining in 9.1 they will "change their ways".

    The only thing that I find stupid is that we have yet to get an exact explanation of what Zovaal did to actually end up like this.
    Yea, he turned against his fellas because he wanted some juicy knowledge or something.
    But a flashback cinematic or questline that shows him what he was like before or even his turning point.. it would do wonders.

    The issue now is that Blizzard obviously doesn't want the players to actually root for Zovaal so we get this generic villain mixed with a misunderstood anti-hero type of deal.
    He is basically TBC Illidan before his Legion re-visit in my eyes, just better still.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    ???? Killrog was part of both the first and second war, leading the Bleeding Hollow clan.
    He wasn't invented for wod.
    Certainly didn't seem important lol
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  10. #30
    He's like a Warcraft version of Thanos minus the interesting parts. People will forget about him the moment 10.0 hits the servers.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #31
    His ultimate purpose is to be a loot pinata. That's what robs any WoW villain of their allure. Garrosh, Sylvanas and even Gul'dan were able to skirt this problem because they weren't obvious final bosses of a raid, at least not yet. They were free to roam the world and cause a lot of terrible things around the world. It gave them agency.

    The Jailor has no agency. He's stuck in the Maw. He's not doing anything. He didn't do anything to us or to any of the characters. There is no personal score to be settle with him and there's certainly nothing to empathise with.

    He's just a fixed object, sitting idle until we beat the loot out of him while hoping he drops that rare mount as well.

  12. #32
    The jailer is the worst combination of the inactive 'NEXT TIME GADGET' passive villain who is supposed to be interesting or imposing based on his design alone and the 'my big evil bad guy is better than the old writer's big evil bad guy' trope. Retconning the lore to make him a galaxy brain 7d chess mastermind that has been steering events since time immemorial without doing to groundwork to make it plausible is a joke.

    Without the latter he is boring, with it he is insulting.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  13. #33
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    IN THE MOUNTAINS
    Posts
    5,772
    Kind of a mistake leaving his intentions so mysterious. We KNOW he's got to have some sort of 'for the greater good' type of plan or else Sylvanas wouldn't be helping him. And if Blizzard tries to make this some sort of big reveal and acting so proud of themselves for saying 'he wasn't THAT bad you guys, what a twist!' I will finally break and join the Anti-Blizzard Writing Club.

    - - - Updated - - -

    WHEN they reveal his big twist, I'd better be really surprised. Or else.

  14. #34
    He's better than Cata Deathwing but he's still the second worst expansion main villain. Archimonde in WoD doesn't count because despite having equally as many character traits (i.e nill) he's so out of focus that it doesn't matter. Ditto Argus, since Gul'dan and Sargeras were the 'real' respective villains of those expansions.

    What makes him go down as hard as he does, and at risk of being repetitive is a whole host of factors. For one his visual design and voice are generic. More importantly though he's both under and overwritten in the sense of him having very few actual definining character traits with his motive and background being kept a mystery and him being built up as this cosmic actor. Yet at the same time he's overwritten because he appears too much and everything he has to say is frivolous. They were going for Thanos, as @Minikin pointed out in another thread and @Nerovar pointed in this one, but in so far as they succeeded they aped the version of him in the sequel who didn't have the positive framing, screentime or performance to carry him. And in any case that basis was a mistake because there's no way to get much sympathy for him given his method and attitude.

    They could've either gone very high by having him be a cosmic baddie who didn't even speak because doing so would be to acknowledge the specks that he's seen endless amounts come and go over the years, having him not appear physically unless it's an impactful moment etc. or gone very low, building up on his appearance as a prisoner himself by upping how petty and cruel he is as someone who's presided over the individual torture of that many souls over the years. With the exception of that one Fairy Tales side-story though, this doesn't really come through so he falls flat.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-05 at 04:56 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #35
    When Danuser's "oh noes he was BEHIND EVERYTHING and better than stupid Metzen's stuff, maybe Sylvanas will notice me now, she's so hawt" villain is best summed up by a parody, it's hard to take him remotely seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  16. #36
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    10,054
    I don't really have an opinion of him, one way or the other. Just doesn't have enough of a story. He certainly has an intimidating presence but he just hasn't done much directly yet, and we only have a loose sketch of his backstory.

    Assuming he's meant to be the main focus and isn't just a red herring, I don't know that he can really stack up to past antagonists that had lots of history and entire novels dedicated to them, with what's available right now.

    Would be nice to get some sort of tie-in media that actually tells the story of the Shadowlands up through Zovaal's betrayal. Shorts, short stories -- something. Hell, something that sends you back through history to let you play through it would be cool.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He's better than Cata Deathwing but he's still the second worst expansion end boss.
    Eh. Classic and BC didn't do a great job with their villains, either.

    Honestly, the only villains they've really nailed are Arthas, Garrosh, and Gul'dan, I think.

    In retrospect I think what they were trying to do with Sylvanas is actually kind of interesting, but at the time they were happening the moments never really landed.

    Like, Sylvanas stirring up conflict amongst the living to try and create an army of souls in the Shadowlands that she can use to unmake the afterlife, in order to escape her own fate, is... not a bad idea at all, for her character arc. It's just not the story they actually delivered to us.

    What we needed was a story like the Illidan novel that gave us her side of the story, in a clear and well-defined way. Not necessarily outside of the game, though bare minimum that would have helped. Obviously I don't think the narrative of BFA would work if we knew from the start what was motivating Sylvanas, but at some point, her perspective of events during Legion and BFA needed to be presented to us. Like, maybe with a big questline during patches 8.2.5 ~ 8.3.

    I think her story only really works in context of knowing where it's going. So on Blizzard's side they were like, "oh, this is what it's building up to," but on the player side it was just a bunch of, "why is this even happening right now?"
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2021-07-05 at 05:12 PM.

  17. #37
    The only way the Jailer can become anymore interesting is if he removes his mask during a mythic only phase and reveals himself to be Hogger all along.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I don't really have an opinion of him, one way or the other. Just doesn't have enough of a story. He certainly has an intimidating presence but he just hasn't done much directly yet, and we only have a loose sketch of his backstory.

    Assuming he's meant to be the main focus and isn't just a red herring, I don't know that he can really stack up to past antagonists that had lots of history and entire novels dedicated to them, with what's available right now.

    Would be nice to get some sort of tie-in media that actually tells the story of the Shadowlands up through Zovaal's betrayal. Shorts, short stories -- something. Hell, something that sends you back through history to let you play through it would be cool.
    I don't think he's a red herring. Blizzard just knows what their fans are interested in. The Jailer doesn't really need motivations or any sort of backstory that goes beyond the most barebone explanation of his origins. The character is a walking, talking plot device that up to this point existed solely to prop up Sylvanas (the character people are actually interested in). The story was always about Sylvanas, Anduin and the other misfits who got kidnapped in that ridiculous "Dark Abduction" cinematic. People don't make 10 threads a day about wanting to kill the Jailer or serve him (depending on your inclinations) - it's always about that banshee. The Shadowlands and the characters in it are (at least thus far) really nothing more than embellishment. Whether they will manage to somehow focus the narrative on the Jailer after Sylvanas got looted by hordes of LFR players remains to be seen.

    But hey, at least on paper this character is really important.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  19. #39
    I would have liked it better if he had been the runecarver playing us all this time.

    Right now he is pretty lame. His only 2 threatening powers are his eye which he took from Odin and the creation of the lich king/other maw weapons which he forced the runecarver to do. He couldn't even craft them himself. Like 99% of the shit he was able to do was literally only cause The Primus who is supposedly the greatest strategist ever was a dipshit who went to check in on the Jailer solo with no escape plan and then proceeded to help him instead of killing himself or something.

    Denathrius is much more impressive of a villain.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    They wanted to have a mysterious villain, but I think they went TOO mysterious with him.

    We have no idea who he is, what he wants, or what's at stake. Everything is super generic, vague, and general as hell - basically the epitome of "bad guy wants to end world" with little nuance or investment. Without knowing the stakes and the motivation, we can't really get invested, and without getting invested, everything just feels super stale and boring.
    ^ THIS.

    Everything said here is exactly what is wrong with the Jailer. They set up a dude we don't know with goals we aren't aware of, and we're all expected to give a damn about him being a major character of the current story arc just because he's all-powerful. It's ridiculous how thin the story has been. They're pulling a Snoke here.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •