Night warrior as a skin for NElf DH instead of Pala?

[Triceron]

A Shadow Hunter is not a Warrior of the Loas? he uses a Glaive, just like the Night Warrior, and believes in the Loa, just like prelates.

Paladins aren't just warriors of faith, otherwise any Druid could be considered a Paladin.

The connection between all Paladins is being specifically a Warrior of the Light. And not just a Warrior *who is able to use light*, but one that draws their power from their faith and uses it to channel light exclusively. Paladins generally do not use any other power except the Light; barring any Covenant or Borrowed Power shenanigans

And yes, there already exists one such Warrior of Light who serves Elune: Delas Moonfang.

Yes, who can open up to other Night Elves. But what is true is that right now, other Night Elves are not Knights and Paladins. She's an exception to the rule, not the rule itself, and the conversation isn't about having Night Elves all become Paladins, it's about taking Night Elf Sentinels and Huntresses as examples and applying that they could simply learn to channel the power of Elune to become their own form of Warrior of the Light that doesn't have to be the Delas Moonfang style of Paladin. It can be a Paladin that retains the Night Elf culture.

Delas Moonfang formally adopts the Holy Light. She is no longer a Priestess of Elune. This is reflected in her current voice lines, which are all about the Light, and nothing about Elune. She is the only example of a Night Elf who has joined the Silver Hand and adopted the Holy Light, as all other Night Elf Priests and Warriors still serve Elune exclusively.

You wanted light. Sounds like a Discipline priest to me.

What do you mean 'You wanted light'?

But only Tyrande Whisperwind became a fully fledged one. So, it's an evolved Priestess of the Moon class.

So you're saying Blizzard can only make Priestess of the Moon into Night Warriors and can never make them out of any other class? You are telling me Blizzard can not define the class that they made up?

Well, you see, that's where i disagree. You just arbitrarily apply the Night Warrior to whatever is out there when the archetype is pretty much well defined.

Because that is the topic of this thread. That you disagree doesn't change the matter of this being the topic of the thread.

It uses glaives, it uses archery, it's extremely agile, it uses lunar magic, it calls on a pet, it might include becoming a lunar missile. But, it's definitely not a Mage. If we take it as an evolution of a PotM, then Hunter makes some sense, since they are some sort of rangers.

Blizzard defines this, not you.

Sunwalkers use Druidism to channel the power of the sun. Blizzard says they are a Paladin. That they use Druidism isn't something you can arbitrarily dismiss as 'definitely not a Paladin' just because you wish so.

Another example is Gnome Priest. Gnomes are agnostic and do not believe in religion or faith. A Gnome Priest is effectively a surgeon or battle medic. That is the lore. That Blizzard does not correlate the gameplay to support the lore doesn't mean the lore is not canon. So Night Warrior really exists in lore, and *does not have to be* represented in gameplay. That's why I am making an example of them being able to be a Mage, because Blizzard doesn't have to have the gameplay represent the lore at all.

If a Gnome Surgeon can exist as a canonical representation of Gnome Priest in lore, and does not have ANY gameplay mechanics that reflect this title, it does not mean it is not formally canon. Blizzard says its canon, therefore it is.

And this applies to Night Warrior, which has not been given any canonical representation as any one defined class. Not even as Priestess of the Moon. It will be whatever Blizzard canonically defines it as in terms of a playable class, otherwise it is just a title that can be applied whichever way it exists right now. And my example is, Blizzard can decide that a Night Warrior should canonically be applied as a Class Skin to a Mage class, despite all the things that don't make sense Just like Gnome Doctors/Medics/Surgeons are applied as canonical representation of the Priest class, even if it makes no sense through gameplay whatsoever.

[username993720]

Paladins aren't just warriors of faith, otherwise any Druid could be considered a Paladin.

The connection between all Paladins is being specifically a Warrior of the Light. And not just a Warrior *who is able to use light*, but one that draws their power from their faith and uses it to channel light exclusively. Paladins generally do not use any other power except the Light; barring any Covenant or Borrowed Power shenanigans

Yes, but you don't exclude prelates from that categorization, would you? they draw light from their Loa.

Yes, who can open up to other Night Elves. But what is true is that right now, other Night Elves are not Knights and Paladins. She's an exception to the rule, not the rule itself, and the conversation isn't about having Night Elves all become Paladins, it's about taking Night Elf Sentinels and Huntresses as examples and applying that they could simply learn to channel the power of Elune to become their own form of Warrior of the Light that doesn't have to be the Delas Moonfang style of Paladin. It can be a Paladin that retains the Night Elf culture.

Delas Moonfang formally adopts the Holy Light. She is no longer a Priestess of Elune. This is reflected in her current voice lines, which are all about the Light, and nothing about Elune. She is the only example of a Night Elf who has joined the Silver Hand and adopted the Holy Light, as all other Night Elf Priests and Warriors still serve Elune exclusively.

Why do we need Sentinels and Huntresses as possible representations of a Paladin when they're clearly not ones. Blizzard didn't just put Delas Moonfang for the gags and giggles of it. They put her in order to open up the possibility of Night elves becoming Paladins.

Delas Moonfang is supposed to represent the Elune worshipping Paladin, just like Aponi Brightmane represents the An'she worshipping Paladin.
She evolved from a Priestess of the Moon, just like how Aponi Brightmane evolved from a Warrior to a Paladin, and Tahu Sagewind from a Druid to a Priest. They still represent their belief in An'she, despite their conversion.

What do you mean 'You wanted light'?

You wanted a mention of light. So, i gave it to you. Doesn't matter if it doesn't say 'a warrior of light'. It still says they walk in the light.

So you're saying Blizzard can only make Priestess of the Moon into Night Warriors and can never make them out of any other class? You are telling me Blizzard can not define the class that they made up?

Unlikely. As the Priestess of the Moon is the most devoted profession to Elune.

Because that is the topic of this thread. That you disagree doesn't change the matter of this being the topic of the thread.

No, the topic of this thread isn't the Oprah Winfrey meme:
"This class gets a Night Warrior skin, and this class gets a Night Warrior, and all of you get a Night Warrior skin".

Blizzard defines this, not you.

Sunwalkers use Druidism to channel the power of the sun. Blizzard says they are a Paladin. That they use Druidism isn't something you can arbitrarily dismiss as 'definitely not a Paladin' just because you wish so.

I'm pretty sure they use Paladinism, and that you're confusing Tauren seers with Sunwalkers.

Another example is Gnome Priest. Gnomes are agnostic and do not believe in religion or faith. A Gnome Priest is effectively a surgeon or battle medic. That is the lore. That Blizzard does not correlate the gameplay to support the lore doesn't mean the lore is not canon. So Night Warrior really exists in lore, and *does not have to be* represented in gameplay. That's why I am making an example of them being able to be a Mage, because Blizzard doesn't have to have the gameplay represent the lore at all.

What you don't seem to grasp it that the Night Warrior has a defined set of skills, while Gnome doctors and surgeons don't.

If a Gnome Surgeon can exist as a canonical representation of Gnome Priest in lore, and does not have ANY gameplay mechanics that reflect this title, it does not mean it is not formally canon. Blizzard says its canon, therefore it is.

I never implied it wasn't canon.

And this applies to Night Warrior, which has not been given any canonical representation as any one defined class. Not even as Priestess of the Moon. It will be whatever Blizzard canonically defines it as in terms of a playable class, otherwise it is just a title that can be applied whichever way it exists right now. Like 'Tinker' simply being applicable to practically any Engineer, since that is canonically how Blizzard has applied it so far, and not directly to any class.

What it doesn't have is any Paladin or Demon Hunter abilities. What it does have are Priestess of the Moon abilities like Lunar spells, Owl pet and Archery.

[Triceron]

Yes, but you don't exclude prelates from that categorization, would you? they draw light from their Loa.

Right, so I wouldn't exclude a potential Sentinel who follows Elune from that equation either

Why do we need Sentinels and Huntresses as possible representations of a Paladin when they're clearly not ones. Blizzard didn't just put Delas Moonfang for the gags and giggles of it. They put her in order to open up the possibility of Night elves becoming Paladins.

The discussion is on how a Night Warrior class relates to being a Paladin Class Skin, and this is but one explanation of a connection. A Sentinel or Huntress is typically a Night Elf Warrior. A Night Warrior however invokes the power of Elune, uses her Light, and is an embodiment of her Warrior Aspect. And we know regular Sentinels in the Army of the Black Moon have become Night Warriors simply upon witnessing Tyrande. This lore connection allows a Night Warrior to be embodied as a type of Paladin (If Blizzard chooses to make the connection), since all the connections are there.

That is the basis of the topic. A Class skin that bridges what we already know about the Night Warrior and how it is represented as a melee-centric class that wields the Light of Elune.

You wanted a mention of light. So, i gave it to you. Doesn't matter if it doesn't say 'a warrior of light'. It still says they walk in the light.

Well that changes everything! You've convinced me that you think Shadow Hunters are Paladins because they walk in the light.

Unlikely. As the Priestess of the Moon is the most devoted profession to Elune.

So? What if they are?

We have multiple classes that involve devoted faiths as a profession, of different levels and extremes. Sunwalker, Seer and Druid are all faith-based Druidic Sun worshipers of varying degrees.

No, the topic of this thread isn't the Oprah Winfrey meme:
"This class gets a Night Warrior skin, and this class gets a Night Warrior, and all of you get a Night Warrior skin".

Who are you to decide this? Beloren has said otherwise here:

"Night warrior as it's own class doesn't necessarily need to be a completely new class playstyle, but could be made up of composites of others." This is his thread, mind you.

What you don't seem to grasp it that the Night Warrior has a defined set of skills, while Gnome doctors and surgeons don't.

The Night Warrior is not playable in any form, therefore it does not have any defined set of skills, period. For it to be defined means it must be playable first to define it. You can apply this to any class.

Think about how a Warlock in WoW has zero abilities from its Warcraft 3 counterpart. Blizzard says "This gameplay represents a Warlock" and so it is. If Metamorphosis was Warlock gameplay, then Metamorphosis is canonically something Warlocks can do. If they take it away, then it's still assumed in lore that they are capable of Metamorphosis, even if they have zero in game representation for it. It is still embedded in the lore.

If you have issues with a certain skill set not being portrayed in gameplay, then that's the no different as having issue that Warlocks are unable to use the Metamorphosis form which we clearly see displayed in the Green Fire questline, which is still applicable to current lore. Crying about missing abilities doesn't really change anything, Blizzard can choose to define Class gameplay as they see fit to represent any given class, regardless of what we know they are capable of in the lore. If Blizzard wants a Night Warrior to be a Mage class skin and not do any of the things Tyrande does in the cinematics, then they can absolutely do that. Your assertions don't define how Blizzard has to approach a Night Warrior in playable form.

What it doesn't have is any Paladin or Demon Hunter abilities. What it does have are Priestess of the Moon abilities like Lunar spells, Owl pet and Archery.

And the concept of a melee-centric Night Warrior who uses Lunar powers doesn't stray far from the source, regardless.

[username993720]

Right, so I wouldn't exclude a potential Sentinel who follows Elune from that equation either, if it were to be bridged in.

But, why choose a sentinel, who is at most blessed by Elune, over a Night Warrior (or a PotM) who are devotes to Elune?

I exclude your example of Shadow Hunter on the same basis as I would exclude a Druid - they don't just use faith to tap into the light. They tap into more than that. Sunwalkers, for example, are not just Tauren Druids or Tauren Seers, they're specifically Sunwalkers because they choose to manifest their powers through Light, exclusively.

Both Tauren Sunwalkers (Paladins) and Tauren Seers (Priest) call on the light through their belief in the sun.

The discussion is on how a Night Warrior class relates to being a Paladin Class Skin, and this is but one explanation of a connection. A Sentinel or Huntress is typically a Night Elf Warrior.

What about the name Huntress sounds Warriorish to you?

A Night Warrior however invokes the power of Elune, uses her Light, and is an embodiment of her Warrior Aspect.

Uses her light? where is it depicted?

And we know regular Sentinels in the Army of the Black Moon have become Night Warriors simply upon witnessing Tyrande. This lore connection allows a Night Warrior to be embodied as a type of Paladin (If Blizzard chooses to make the connection), since all the connections are there.

Sentinels are not Paladins.
They have Warriors, Hunters and Rogues among them, but not Paladins.

Well that changes everything! You've convinced me that you think Shadow Hunters are Paladins because they walk in the light.

I knew you'd come to your senses one day

So? What if they are?

Paladins and Priests both exist as classes, regardless of how devoted either class is to their particular faiths. Hell, by all means, Tauren Druids would be the most devoted to their faith while Seers and Sunwalkers only take up the aspect of the Sun.

So, it makes the most sense for it to be PotM, rather than a Sentinel.

Yes, that's why Tauren Paladins/Priests are Sunwalkers/Seers and not Druids, because they're more devoted to An'she than them (who use lunar powers as well).

Who are you to decide this? Beloren has said otherwise here:

"Night warrior as it's own class doesn't necessarily need to be a completely new class playstyle, but could be made up of composites of others." This is his thread, mind you.

So, a Night Warrior does not have a Demon Hunter-based gameplay, but rather a combination of several classes' gameplay? it just confirms that it can't be represented by either classes and should stand on its own.

And for the purpose of the topic, we are discussing the possibilities of how the definition can be interpreted in different ways, as class skins. If we're just talking about Blizzard defining it, then Night Warrior is not playable at all and Night Warrior is not a class. Period. Therefore you can not claim it is a Priestess of the Moon, as neither a POTM or Night Warrior are playable classes.

What does their playability has to do with anything? lore-wise, they are the closest.

The Night Warrior is not playable in any form, therefore it does not have any defined set of skills, period. For it to be defined means it must be playable first to define it. You can apply this to any class.

*Facepalm*

You see Tyrande's abilities come to play as a Night Warrior. Even the Stonewright exhibits lunar beams. Therefore, one can assume they are part of the archetype's gameplay.

Think about how a Warlock in WoW has zero abilities from its Warcraft 3 counterpart. You can point at WC3 and say 'there's a defined set of skills there' but Blizzard can just as easily choose not to use any of them, and simply create a completely new kit that suits their design needs.

Why are you pointing to Warcraft 3? I already told you some of the concept was dropped when transitioned into HotS, like Searing Arrows. Even a transition from HotS to WoW would discard some abilities on the way. What i'm referring to is the Night Warrior's current gameplay in game.

And the concept of a melee-centric Night Warrior who uses Lunar powers doesn't stray far from the source, regardless.

Exactly (with that source being PotM).

[Triceron]

But, why choose a sentinel, who is at most blessed by Elune, over a Night Warrior (or a PotM) who are devotes to Elune?

Why have Sunwalker lore be tied to Druidism sun worship, and not just be a Tauren who takes up the Holy Light religion?

Why not just have all Paladins learn to use the Holy Light the same way Monks all learn to use Pandaren style Martial Arts? I mean the question you're asking is not really the point here. The point is whether it would make sense, and considering Blizzard has examples of both Races who adopt a religion/faith/fighting style and a Race who applies their own culture to a class, then a Night Warrior can go both ways. And in Beloren's example, we're talking about wanting to see Night Elf culture represented using Glaives as a Class Skin on an existing Melee-centric class that uses magic.

Both Tauren Sunwalkers (Paladins) and Tauren Seers (Priest) call on the light through their belief in the sun.

Right, so Priests, Druids and Priestess of the Moon, and to an extent, Night Warriors, can all call on the light through their belief in Elune.

Pointing out that the POTM is the most devoted one of the bunch doesn't make Night Warrior any less likely to be able to use the Light of Elune.

What about the Huntress sounds Warriorish to you?

Sentinels are not Paladins.
They have Warriors, Hunters and Rogues among them, but not Paladins.

Sentinels are the Night Elf Warrior caste.

Night Warriors could be a potential Paladin equivalent. It depends on whether Elune (or Blizzard) allows a Sentinel Night Warrior to use Lunar magic.

So, it makes the most sense for it to be PotM, rather than a Sentinel.

Sure. Feel free to make a new thread about it.

So, a Night Warrior does not have a Demon Hunter-based gameplay, but rather a combination of several classes' gameplay? it just confirms that it can't be represented by either classes and should stand on its own.

A Night Warrior can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

[username993720]

Why have Sunwalker lore be tied to Druidism sun worship, and not just be a Tauren who takes up the Holy Light religion?

Actually, they aren't. Seers are. Sunwalkers are formerly Warriors.

Why not just have all Paladins learn to use the Holy Light the same way Monks all learn to use Pandaren style Martial Arts? I mean the question you're asking is not really the point here. The point is whether it would make sense, and considering Blizzard has examples of both Races who adopt a religion/faith/fighting style and a Race who applies their own culture to a class, then a Night Warrior can go both ways.

You want the Holy Light religion to be the only way of representation, like the Monk? it's weird enough seeing other races using Pandaren styles and techniques. This is why class skins are required. To better represent these missing race/class combinations. I want a Human Monk to be a Scarlet Crusade one, and a Draenei to be an Auchenai one.

And in Beloren's example, we're talking about wanting to see Night Elf culture represented using Glaives as a Class Skin on an existing Melee-centric class that uses magic.

but lacks archery and pets.

Right, so Priests, Druids and Priestess of the Moon, and to an extent, Night Warriors, can all call on the light through their belief in Elune.

I don't think it is said that Druids use the light. Unless the Night Warrior can heal, it is still under debate.

Pointing out that the POTM is the most devoted one of the bunch doesn't make Night Warrior any less likely to be able to use the Light of Elune.

On the contrary. Light of Elune is one of Tyrande's abilities in HotS. So, if the Night Warrior is indeed a PotM, then they can definitely call on the light.

Sentinels are the Night Elf Warrior caste.

They contain Huntresses, Archers, Spies and Infiltrators, as well.

Night Warriors could be a potential Paladin equivalent. It depends on whether Elune (or Blizzard) allows a Sentinel Night Warrior to use Lunar magic.

Not a chance. Paladins do not dual-wield Glaives, do not use archery, do not call on pets, and are certainly not as agile.

Again. A Sentinel is not a Paladin. Nor would it be if you add lunar magic to it. Delas Moonfang is.

Sure. Feel free to make a new thread about it.

I don't need to. I already did.

A Night Warrior can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

And the next expansion can be whatever they want: Titan Homeworld

[Triceron]

Actually, they aren't. Seers are. Sunwalkers are formerly Warriors.

Who are still devoted to the worship of the Sun, and derive their powers through their faith.

You want the Holy Light religion to be the only way of representation, like the Monk?

- Delas Moonfang is a Silver Hand Paladin who happens to be Night Elf. A Night Elf Paladin in the most literal sense, who has chosen to adopt the Silver Hand and Holy Light. Let us regard her as one example of a Night Elf Paladin Race/Class option.

For the sake of discussion, Beloren and I are not actually referring to Night Elf Paladins as a Race/Class option, we are talking about a Night Elf Class Skin for Paladins. What is the difference? Delas Moonfang is formally integrated into the Silver Hand in current lore, while a Night Elf Class Skin of a Paladin does not need to be directly associated to the Paladin order, or even be called a "Paladin". They can be completely part of the Night Elf military structure, and simply be a 'Warrior of Elune'.

Since this thread is questioning the possibility for a Class Skin for a Night Elf culturally derived 'Warrior of Elune'. The concept is along the lines of a Sentinel (NE Warrior archetype specifically) that adopts Elune's light. There is no name for this type of thing happening in Night Elf culture, so it's fairly new and abstract, and the closest variation happens to be a Priestess of the Moon that chooses to fight in melee as a Night Warrior. However this should not be confused as *BEING* a Priestess of the Moon; since the topic is a Class Skin for a Paladin, and not a completely new class concept.

Thus, we are talking about a 'Warrior of Elune' as a melee-centric class concept that uses the Light. And this particular concept is based on the idea of a Sentinel Warrior that adopts Elune's Light or the Night Warrior aspect, rather than be derived from a Priestess of the Moon, for the sake of conceptual discussion. Does this make sense? The topic is how a NE Class Skin of a Paladin could retain its Night Elf culture and make sense in lore, not a question of how to adapt the Priestess of the Moon as a Paladin. Every time I mention Night Warrior, your mind automatically jumps to Tyrande and Priestess of the Moon, when you aren't fully realizing that the 'Night Warrior' concept is much more broad than that.

The Army of the Black Moon has multiple Sentinels turning into Night Warriors upon witnessing Tyrande. Those Warriors-who-became-Night Warriors are the examples which we are adapting a 'Night Elf Class Skin for Paladin' concept on, simply by using *the Sentinel type* of Night Warrior as a basis for its lore. It is not a suggestion for a Priestess of the Moon class, which I've said many times before is a separate discussion.

"In Darkest Night" quest line that unlocks the Night Warrior customization for Night Elves is the lore basis for a Night Warrior Class Skin (which is applicable to practically any class). The lore within this quest is what I am basing a more generalized Class Skin that gets its own weapons and animations, spell effects and more. As I said, Night Warriors are more broadly applied as a title and description than just Tyrande, and by all means *every Night Elf who unlocks Black Eyes* is already a Night Warrior. It just stands that we do not have any specific Race/Class combo or New Class that represents any particular Night Warrior gameplay; and the argument is that since we already have a quest that applies it to any Night Elf class, then it could also be abstracted as a Class Skin.

That you prefer that we have this dedicated to a new class is fine to bring up, and we are not *dismissing* your idea, but as I said, you are creating a tangential discussion which Beloren and I are not actively discussing. Neither are we discussing Delas Moonfang as a Night Elf Class Skin for Paladins.

but lacks archery and pets.

Which is not the *Sentinel* type of Night Warrior which we (inc Beloren) are conceptually discussing.

I don't think it is said that Druids use the light.

They use Elune's light. They also have Elune specific talents that directly source Elune. Warrior of Elune, Fury of Elune, just a couple examples. All their moon magic in Balance is derived from her.

Night Elf Priests use the same Light of Elune to heal and deal damage. Druids only use it offensively, in Balance spec, and not to heal. That is the only difference.

There is no clause that says any other type of Night Elf class can not use Elune's light too. Racially, every Night Elf has a connection to Elune and the Moon.

Unless the Night Warrior can heal, it is still under debate.
On the contrary. Light of Elune is one of Tyrande's abilities in HotS. So, if the Night Warrior is indeed a PotM, then they can definitely call on the light.
Not a chance. Paladins do not dual-wield Glaives, do not use archery, do not call on pets, and are certainly not as agile.
Again. A Sentinel is not a Paladin. Nor would it be if you add lunar magic to it. Delas Moonfang is.

A Night Warrior can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

Canonically speaking, *any Night Elf that unlocks the Black Eyes is a Night Warrior*.

Blessing of the Night Warrior
Unlocks the Night Warrior customization for Night Elves upon completion of the Tyrande's Vengeance storyline.

It doesn't call it 'Black Eyes' or 'Eyes of the Eclipse' or 'Army of the Black Moon'; it says Night Warrior customization. Meaning your character of any given playable Night Elf class becomes a Night Warrior. You can be a Night Elf Mage, or a Rogue, or a Hunter, or a Druid, and still be a canonical Night Warrior simply by doing the quest and adopting the black eyes. This is why whenever you talk about 'abilities a Night Warrior has', what you're really talking canonically is any Night Elf playable class who has completed this quest.

[username993720]

Who are still devoted to the worship of the Sun, and derive their powers through their faith.

After they became Paladins.

- Delas Moonfang is a Silver Hand Paladin who happens to be Night Elf. A Night Elf Paladin in the most literal sense, who has chosen to adopt the Silver Hand and Holy Light. Let us regard her as one example of a Night Elf Paladin Race/Class option.

Delas Moonfang is obviously there to represent the Elune worship, just as Tauren represent the An'she worship. They didn't add her just to be another generic holy light Paladin.

For the sake of discussion, Beloren and I are not actually referring to Night Elf Paladins as a Race/Class option, we are talking about a Night Elf Class Skin for Paladins. What is the difference? Delas Moonfang is formally integrated into the Silver Hand in current lore, while a Night Elf Class Skin of a Paladin does not need to be directly associated to the Paladin order, or even be called a "Paladin". They can be completely part of the Night Elf military structure, and simply be a 'Warrior of Elune'.

A night elf Paladin class skin would be just that. A Delas Moonfang lookalike with lunar cosmetics. Not a Night Warrior.

Since this thread is questioning the possibility for a Class Skin for a Night Elf culturally derived 'Warrior of Elune'. The concept is along the lines of a Sentinel (NE Warrior archetype specifically) that adopts Elune's light. There is no name for this type of thing happening in Night Elf culture, so it's fairly new and abstract, and the closest variation happens to be a Priestess of the Moon that chooses to fight in melee as a Night Warrior. However this should not be confused as *BEING* a Priestess of the Moon; since the topic is a Class Skin for a Paladin, and not a completely new class concept.

There's nothing associating the Sentinels with Paladins.

If you want the Night Warrior to be based on Sentinels, however, i agree. The Huntress in Warcraft 3 has:

Sentinel

Send owl companion to a nearby tree and provide vision. Can see invisible units.
Each Huntress only gets one Sentinel to use on a tree.
Once your Huntress uses her owl, she cannot get another one.

Just like Tyrande.

and:

Moon Glaive

Gives the Huntress the ability to strike an additional unit with one attack by bouncing her glaive from one unit to the next.

The Archer has:

Elune's grace

Reduces the damage taken from Piercing attacks to 65%,
and spells and Magic attacks to 80%.

Just like a PotM would have.

So, essentially, a PotM is an upgraded version of them. Therefore, you can combine them into the PotM and Night Warrior class concept.

Thus, we are talking about a 'Warrior of Elune' as a melee-centric class concept that uses the Light. And this particular concept is based on the idea of a Sentinel Warrior that adopts Elune's Light or the Night Warrior aspect, rather than be derived from a Priestess of the Moon, for the sake of conceptual discussion.

The Night Warrior does not seem to use the light.

Does this make sense? The topic is how a NE Class Skin of a Paladin could retain its Night Elf culture and make sense in lore, not a question of how to adapt the Priestess of the Moon as a Paladin.

I fully agree. That's why it should be a race/class concept, like Delas Moonfang. Not the Night Warrior.

Every time I mention Night Warrior, your mind automatically jumps to Tyrande and Priestess of the Moon, when you aren't fully realizing that the 'Night Warrior' concept is much more broad than that.

How is it more broad than that? melee fighting with dual glaives? not a Paladin. Acrobatic jumping? not a Paladin.

The Army of the Black Moon has multiple Sentinels turning into Night Warriors upon witnessing Tyrande. Those Warriors-who-became-Night Warriors are the examples which we are adapting a 'Night Elf Class Skin for Paladin' concept on, simply by using *the Sentinel type* of Night Warrior as a basis for its lore. It is not a suggestion for a Priestess of the Moon class, which I've said many times before is a separate discussion.

But, why use the Sentinels when you actually have Night elf Paladins in the form of Delas Moonfang, Nerus Moonfang, Alynblaze and the Eternal Champions?

"In Darkest Night" quest line that unlocks the Night Warrior customization for Night Elves is the lore basis for a Night Warrior Class Skin (which is applicable to practically any class). The lore within this quest is what I am basing a more generalized Class Skin that gets its own weapons and animations, spell effects and more. As I said, Night Warriors are more broadly applied as a title and description than just Tyrande, and by all means *every Night Elf who unlocks Black Eyes* is already a Night Warrior.

So, if it's merely a customization option, why are you pushing for a Night Warrior class skin? and if you do, you're basing it on what you've seen from Tyrande, which has a developed PotM gameplay.

[QUOTE]It just stands that we do not have any specific Race/Class combo or New Class that represents any particular Night Warrior gameplay; and the argument is that since we already have a quest that applies it to any Night Elf class, then it could also be abstracted as a Class Skin.[/QUOTE

Exactly. No class represent a Night Warrior gameplay. So, why push it into one as a class skin, when it should be a class of its own?

Neither are we discussing Delas Moonfang as a Night Elf Class Skin for Paladins.

Which is preposterous. Because she's just that. A Night elf Paladin.

Which is not the *Sentinel* type of Night Warrior which we (inc Beloren) are conceptually discussing.

So, you are deliberately dismissing parts of the Night Warrior so it could fit a Paladin/Demon Hunter? Just like Teriz dismissing Gnomish engineering for the sake of his Goblin centric Tinker vision.

They use Elune's light. They also have Elune specific talents that directly source Elune. Warrior of Elune, Fury of Elune, just a couple examples. All their moon magic in Balance is derived from her.

Night Elf Priests use the same Light of Elune to heal and deal damage. Druids only use it offensively, in Balance spec, and not to heal. That is the only difference.

There is no clause that says any other type of Night Elf class can not use Elune's light too. Racially, every Night Elf has a connection to Elune and the Moon.

Are they using her light, though, or her powers? because Druids can't actually heal using Elune's powers while Priests supposedly can. You see, Light is conceptually different from 'power'. While priests could be using the Moon's light as a source of comfort and assurance, Druids might be using her physical powers. Meaning, they call upon the power of the moon and stars to inflict actual arcane damage. What i'm trying to say is that the belief in the light could be more conceptual, while Druids use it more practically.

A Night Warrior can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

Again with that claim. That's not an argument. That's just a way to bring the discussion into a dead end. "you can't prove there's no flying spaghetti monster" is what you're using.

Canonically speaking, *any Night Elf that unlocks the Black Eyes is a Night Warrior*.

So, what's with the class skin? you already got what you wanted.

It doesn't call it 'Black Eyes' or 'Eyes of the Eclipse' or 'Army of the Black Moon'; it says Night Warrior customization. Meaning your character of any given playable Night Elf class becomes a Night Warrior. You can be a Night Elf Mage, or a Rogue, or a Hunter, or a Druid, and still be a canonical Night Warrior simply by doing the quest and adopting the black eyes. This is why whenever you talk about 'abilities a Night Warrior has', what you're really talking canonically is any Night Elf playable class who has completed this quest.

And yet, you use the concept based on Tyrande. How ironic.

[Triceron]

Again with that claim. That's not an argument. That's just a way to bring the discussion into a dead end.

I wouldn't mind that considering how you're still not understanding the reasons why I have to keep pointing it out. We're literally going in circles, for absolutely no reason.

And yet, you use the concept based on Tyrande. How ironic.

You can use Tyrande as a basis for a Night Warrior concept, but you can't turn around and start using that concept as a means to dismiss other Night Warrior concept possibilities.

It would be like Tinkers being associated with using Turrets through NPCs in WoW, or in Heroes of the Storm. It's a great concept and fits the Tinker, but a Tinker class doesn't need to have Turrets. We can talk about a Tinker class concept that doesn't use Turrets at all. Or one that doesn't use Mechs at all. Or one that doesn't use Lasers at all. The Tinker class concept is whatever Blizzard chooses it to be, and there's no 'missing abilities' to discuss when there's no actual gameplay attached to a Tinker in WoW. The Tinker is an open concept that can be literally anything.

There is no playable Night Warrior class in WoW, and 'archery and pets' are not exclusive abilities to a Night Warrior class concept.

They didn't add her just to be another generic holy light Paladin.

Delas Moonfang has not been shown to invoke Elune as a Silver Hand paladin. All her quotes relate to the Light, and not 'the Light of Elune'.

Delas Moonfang *IS* a generic holy light Paladin in the current lore. This is the reason we do not wish to discuss her as an example of a class skin that uses Paladin gameplay, because we are focused on a *Sentinel* based concept.

Which is preposterous. Because she's just that. A Night elf Paladin.

We are talking about a *Night Elf Class Skin based on the gameplay of a Paladin, and does not use the Paladin identity*

We are literally talking about a Sentinel who uses Elune magic, and retains the identity of a Night Elf Sentinel (uses Glaives) while opening up to Night Elf unique brand of Light magic (Elune). The gameplay is based on Paladin, but it is not a Paladin. We are talking about Class Skins.

The Night Warrior is what is being adapted as the basis of lore for this *Sentinel who uses Elune Magic* class; since they have an aesthetic commonality in being Glaive-wielding melee-centric classes, and being able to wield the power of the Light of Elune.

So again, you are the one who brought up Delas Moonfang as an example, and we are telling you we're not talking about *actual Paladins*, we're talking about a Class Skin for a Sentinel-type of Night Warrior *that simply uses Retribution, Protection and Holy's gameplay as a basis*.

And if you can remember the Allied Race analogy, we're just sharing the Skeleton (gameplay) while having a completely new Race like Vulpera based on Goblin (Night Warrior Class Skin based on Paladin). It's literally the same conversation of the Night Warrior Class Skin using Demon Hunter gameplay, but we're talking about merits of adapting it to Paladin's gameplay instead. That's all.

So, you are deliberately dismissing parts of the Night Warrior so it could fit a Paladin/Demon Hunter?

There is nothing to dismiss.

A Night Warrior is any Night Elf who goes through the ritual to obtain the Blessing of the Night Warrior. Literally a Mage can become a Night Warrior, and all of your associated abilities of your class represents what a Night Warrior is capable of.

Again, the lore of the class can be whatever Blizzard chooses, because they have already granted the Night Warrior title to *every Night Elf* who does the quest.

Exactly. No class represent a Night Warrior gameplay. So, why push it into one as a class skin, when it should be a class of its own?

Because that is just your opinion, and we do not agree with your opinion.

Blizzard could devote resources to making a more interesting new class than a Night Warrior, while the Night Warrior's potential gameplay can be more easily adapted from existing classes.

Class skins have certain advantages over new Classes. The advantage of Night Warrior as a Class skin is that it can be presented as a package alongside *OTHER* class skin concepts, whereas as a Class you would *ONLY* have the Night Warrior as its own class, and people aren't gonna be happy after waiting 6 years to get another Elf-exclusive class. Class skin doesn't have this problem - if people don't like the Night Warrior or Elf classes, they have options to play as something else new. It's the same advantages that Allied Races had over just 1-2 new Race option.

[username993720]

You can use Tyrande as a basis for a Night Warrior concept, but you can't turn around and start using that concept as a means to dismiss other Night Warrior concept possibilities.

It would be like Tinkers being associated with using Turrets through NPCs in WoW, or in Heroes of the Storm. It's a great concept and fits the Tinker, but a Tinker class doesn't need to have Turrets. We can talk about a Tinker class concept that doesn't use Turrets at all. Or one that doesn't use Mechs at all. Or one that doesn't use Lasers at all. The Tinker class concept is whatever Blizzard chooses it to be, and there's no 'missing abilities' to discuss when there's no actual gameplay attached to a Tinker in WoW. The Tinker is an open concept that can be literally anything.

There is no playable Night Warrior class in WoW, and 'archery and pets' are not exclusive abilities to a Night Warrior class concept.

A Tinker without those aspects would be hella butchered.

Except you're not really talking about a class concept and what it could have or not. You're talking about if it should be a skin for an existing class.

Delas Moonfang has not been shown to invoke Elune as a Silver Hand paladin. All her quotes relate to the Light, and not 'the Light of Elune'.

Delas Moonfang *IS* a generic holy light Paladin in the current lore. This is the reason we do not wish to discuss her as an example of a class skin that uses Paladin gameplay, because we are focused on a *Sentinel* based concept.

You know who else haven't shown to be using the light of An'she through their abilities? the Sunwalkers. That's why they are misrepresented.
There's no way they just added her to br a generic Silver Hand paladin. Basically, everyone was of this order come legion. They added her to represent the belief in Elune for the Paladins.

We are talking about a *Night Elf Class Skin based on the gameplay of a Paladin, and does not use the Paladin identity*

We are literally talking about a Sentinel who uses Elune magic, and retains the identity of a Night Elf Sentinel (uses Glaives) while opening up to Night Elf unique brand of Light magic (Elune). The gameplay is based on Paladin, but it is not a Paladin. We are talking about Class Skins.

The Night Warrior is what is being adapted as the basis of lore for this *Sentinel who uses Elune Magic* class; since they have an aesthetic commonality in being Glaive-wielding melee-centric classes, and being able to wield the power of the Light of Elune.

So again, you are the one who brought up Delas Moonfang as an example, and we are telling you we're not talking about *actual Paladins*, we're talking about a Class Skin for a Sentinel-type of Night Warrior *that simply uses Retribution, Protection and Holy's gameplay as a basis*.

And if you can remember the Allied Race analogy, we're just sharing the Skeleton (gameplay) while having a completely new Race like Vulpera based on Goblin (Night Warrior Class Skin based on Paladin). It's literally the same conversation of the Night Warrior Class Skin using Demon Hunter gameplay, but we're talking about merits of adapting it to Paladin's gameplay instead. That's all.

That would require the Paladin's gameplay to be able to dual-wield glaives, utilize archery, and have the agility to do flips. On the Night Warrior's part, it would need to be able to DPS (which it can), Tank (can it?) and heal (can it?).

A Night Warrior is any Night Elf who goes through the ritual to obtain the Blessing of the Night Warrior. Literally a Mage can become a Night Warrior, and all of your associated abilities of your class represents what a Night Warrior is capable of.

Again, the lore of the class can be whatever Blizzard chooses, because they have already granted the Night Warrior title to *every Night Elf* who does the quest.

Yet, you haven't seen a Night Warrior who use abilities that differ from those of Tyrande.

Because that is just your opinion, and we do not agree with your opinion.

Blizzard could devote resources to making a more interesting new class than a Night Warrior, while the Night Warrior's potential gameplay can be more easily adapted from existing classes.

Class skins have certain advantages over new Classes. The advantage of Night Warrior as a Class skin is that it can be presented as a package alongside *OTHER* class skin concepts, whereas as a Class you would *ONLY* have the Night Warrior as its own class, and people aren't gonna be happy after waiting 6 years to get another Elf-exclusive class. Class skin doesn't have this problem - if people don't like the Night Warrior or Elf classes, they have options to play as something else new. It's the same advantages that Allied Races had over just 1-2 new Race option.

1) I agree that the Night Warrior alone is kinda boring. That's why i suggest they deliver it combined with a Dark Ranger and Warden.

2) I wouldn't say it's a Night elf-centric class. Worgen could worship Elune, the Mag'har and even the Zandalari.

3) I agree that several "classes" over 1 class sounds more exciting. But, at the end of the day, they are just reskins. What class skins were you hoping they would add alongside it? because a Night Warrior could, potentially, encompass a Dark Ranger and Warden.

[Triceron]

Except you're not really talking about a class concept and what it could have or not. You're talking about if it should be a skin for an existing class.

Gee, I wonder why that would be the case. Its like someone kept questioning it being a class skin and derailing the thread topic to try and push their own idea that it should only be a new class for the last 10 pages or something....

You do understand that if you just let people discuss the concept, it would probably be done and the thread done pretty quick. But you keep questioning why make it a class skin as though it shouldn't happen. And we explain it but you can't take any answer and have to keep trying to prove it as a wrong answer, which circles the discussion around pointlessly and offers no room for other people to talk because you're replying to everyone and interjecting your opinion (like bringing Delas Moonfang into it even though she has nothing to do with the class skin concept) and derailing it further with strawman arguments still aimed in disproving it. Instead of conversing like 'I don't think a Paladin would fit for X reasons', you outright make statements of what *should and should not happen*, and you will cite Blizzard examples (like asking Where is archery and pets!) which makes it so people have to explain to you why theres no need to assert anything beyond a simple opinion, and not having to *prove* something as being right or wrong when Blizzard themselves have not defined that for these concepts.

Kinda like saying Runemaster can't use Fel Magic. Well why the fuck not? Because Blizzard can do whatever they want with a Runemaster class concept since it doesn't formally exist, and the identity is literally fiction they control. If you implied "I don't think Runemsster should use Fel magic" instead, it implies opinions, and we can simply discuss. If you outright make statementd like "Wheres the archery snd prts?" Then we have to dedicate tome to explaining why the concept we're talking about doesn't need it, and it circles the debate back to you wanting a new class and saying the topic of class skins doesn't matter.

I mean as soon as you stop the bad faith arguments, I would have no need to correct your false assumptions that any particular idea *should not,* happen because you happen to think a new class is better. That os your opinion which we disagree on, and I gave you fair reasoning why we disagree and what advantages a class skin ideally has. So why not just step away from the conversation and let the thread go on? You just keep ignoring the topic and jump in here questioning why people are talking about the topic.

I mean you be you, but the reason this thread hasn't died is literally cuz we're derailing it. Just watch, if I stopped replying to you, this thread would probably fall to page 2 pretty fast, because most of the topic discussion is pretty much done.

[username993720]

Gee, I wonder why that would be the case. Its like someone kept questioning it being a class skin and derailing the thread topic to try and push their own idea that it should only be a new class for the last 10 pages or something....

You do understand that if you just let people discuss the concept, it would probably be done and the thread done pretty quick. But you keep questioning why make it a class skin as though it shouldn't happen. And we explain it but you can't take any answer and have to keep trying to prove it as a wrong answer, which circles the discussion around pointlessly and offers no room for other people to talk because you're replying to everyone and interjecting your opinion (like bringing Delas Moonfang into it even though she has nothing to do with the class skin concept) and derailing it further with strawman arguments still aimed in disproving it. Instead of conversing like 'I don't think a Paladin would fit for X reasons', you outright make statements of what *should and should not happen*, and you will cite Blizzard examples (like asking Where is archery and pets!) which makes it so people have to explain to you why theres no need to assert anything beyond a simple opinion, and not having to *prove* something as being right or wrong when Blizzard themselves have not defined that for these concepts.

Kinda like saying Runemaster can't use Fel Magic. Well why the fuck not? Because Blizzard can do whatever they want with a Runemaster class concept since it doesn't formally exist, and the identity is literally fiction they control. If you implied "I don't think Runemsster should use Fel magic" instead, it implies opinions, and we can simply discuss. If you outright make statementd like "Wheres the archery snd prts?" Then we have to dedicate tome to explaining why the concept we're talking about doesn't need it, and it circles the debate back to you wanting a new class and saying the topic of class skins doesn't matter.

I mean as soon as you stop the bad faith arguments, I would have no need to correct your false assumptions that any particular idea *should not,* happen because you happen to think a new class is better. That os your opinion which we disagree on, and I gave you fair reasoning why we disagree and what advantages a class skin ideally has. So why not just step away from the conversation and let the thread go on? You just keep ignoring the topic and jump in here questioning why people are talking about the topic.

I mean you be you, but the reason this thread hasn't died is literally cuz we're derailing it. Just watch, if I stopped replying to you, this thread would probably fall to page 2 pretty fast, because most of the topic discussion is pretty much done.

So, what kind of abilities and talents do you see it having?

[Triceron]

So, what kind of abilities and talents do you see it having?

I see it having the same talents and abilities as a Night Warrior.


But really, I don't really care about what talents or abilities it would have, since the topic is based on Paladin and Demon Hunter gameplay and I personally don't like either. Demon Hunter gameplay is too basic, and Paladin I'd only be playing for Holy spec since I would rather tank or DPS on my Feral/Guardian Druid. A Night Warrior class skin for either of those classes does not appeal to my sensibilities. My two cents.

[username993720]

I see it having the same talents and abilities as a Night Warrior.


But really, I don't really care about what talents or abilities it would have, since the topic is based on Paladin and Demon Hunter gameplay and I personally don't like either. Demon Hunter gameplay is too basic, and Paladin I'd only be playing for Holy spec since I would rather tank or DPS on my Feral/Guardian Druid. A Night Warrior class skin for either of those classes does not appeal to my sensibilities. My two cents.

And i'm derailing this thread... -_-

You wanted discussion, and yet you don't even care about the concept.

[Triceron]

And i'm derailing this thread... -_-

You wanted discussion, and yet you don't even care about the concept.

Told you. I was never interested in the topic itself. The reason this whole thing got derailed and circular is because people like you and Syegfreyd enter the chat and start rambling how Class skins could never work, or how they're unable to be better than an actual class, and start throwing out claims that Night Warriors can only be A and B and not X and Y. And frankly my whole response the entire time to all of those claims and concerns is literally A Night Warrior can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

Doesn't mean I have to like whatever Blizzard (or other fans) wants it to be. The point is that it can be anything, therefore there's no argument that should be used to *dismiss* one possibility in favour of another; both can be regarded as equally possible, and we should instead simply discuss what we may like or not like about each.

I can advocate for having more ice cream flavours without liking every one of them. And if someone were to create fictional arguments for why certain flavours should not exist (either because they personally don't like it, or they think some other flavour is better) I would make the argument that we can regard ice cream flavours without trying to prove how they would be objectively good or bad. Different flavours have different appeals or drawbacks, and we can simply regard it for the sake of discussion, and not jump to an assumption of how it's never going to be the next Ben and Jerry's flavour.

[username993720]

Told you. I was never interested in the topic itself. The reason this whole thing got derailed and circular is because people like you and Syegfreyd enter the chat and start rambling how Class skins could never work, or how they're unable to be better than an actual class, and start throwing out claims that Night Warriors can only be A and B and not X and Y. And frankly my whole response the entire time to all of those claims and concerns is literally A Night Warrior can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

Doesn't mean I have to like whatever Blizzard (or other fans) wants it to be. The point is that it can be anything, therefore there's no argument that should be used to *dismiss* one possibility in favour of another; both can be regarded as equally possible, and we should instead simply discuss what we may like or not like about each.

I can advocate for having more ice cream flavours without liking every one of them. And if someone were to create fictional arguments for why certain flavours should not exist (either because they personally don't like it, or they think some other flavour is better) I would make the argument that we can regard ice cream flavours without trying to prove how they would be objectively good or bad. Different flavours have different appeals or drawbacks, and we can simply regard it for the sake of discussion, and not jump to an assumption of how it's never going to be the next Ben and Jerry's flavour.

You're no better than us.
Instead of actually engaging in a fruitful and enriching discussion about what Night Warrior could have, you are here to further you own agenda towards class skins.

[Triceron]

You're no better than us.

Have I ever indicated that I'm any better than the scum and villainy that exists in this forum?

We're all trolls and autistic assholes here. If we all had better things to do, we wouldn't be in these forums in the first place. I'm fully aware why all of us are here, and it's not for the sake of 'constructive conversation'. And if you don't think you're here just for the sake of choosing to waste your own time, and you think you have some higher purpose by informing some random person on the internet why some fictional class shouldn't be made, I think you'd be fooling yourself. We're all here just to waste our own time and bicker endlessly, because the drama is what we're drawn to. It's all a cry for attention.

There is no such thing as 'fruitful and enriching discussion' when theres always people coming to threads interjecting some bad faith arguments for the purpose of validating their own opinions. I'm absolutely no exception here, but at least I try and, you know, stick to the topics.

[username993720]

Have I ever indicated that I'm any better than the scum and villainy that exists in this forum?

We're all trolls and autistic assholes here. If we all had better things to do, we wouldn't be in these forums in the first place. I'm fully aware why all of us are here, and it's not for the sake of 'constructive conversation'. And if you don't think you're here just for the sake of choosing to waste your own time, and you think you have some higher purpose by informing some random person on the internet why some fictional class shouldn't be made, I think you'd be fooling yourself. We're all here just to waste our own time and bicker endlessly, because the drama is what we're drawn to. It's all a cry for attention.

There is no such thing as 'fruitful and enriching discussion' when theres always people coming to threads interjecting some bad faith arguments for the purpose of validating their own opinions. I'm absolutely no exception here, but at least I try and, you know, stick to the topics.

That hurt...
Why get so personal?

[Triceron]

That hurt...
Why get so personal?

Cuz I'm no better than you

[Beloren]

Skins feels like a cop out. If they gonna bring in new "themes" make it a new class. Only gameplay can encapsulate a "theme" such as Night Warrior or Spell breaker or Dark Ranger or Tinker etc etc

That would be the more ideal. Thing is we will never get all those classes they have in lore with totally new unique styles.

What they can do is have some based on existing classes with minor alterations like racials work. Or make them classes with 3 specs but each spec is a reskin of specs from other classes that has a playstyle that can match the new class.

Using this example we can have night warrior class that has ine spec melee but a reskin of the havoc spec, one spec range reskin of BM Hunter and a final a reskin of balance druid

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I always thought it was implied, but not set in stone. Legion spec description (Subtlety):
"Some claim the art of subtlety looks like malevolent shadow magic"

How come they:
1. didn't apply it to the ability in game (it is physical instead of shadow)
2. don't go mad?

You can’t make assertions of going mad when so little info is known. Shadow priest use void but don’t go mad. And they use a lot.

What quantity constitutes madness?

How does madness work when using void magic? Priests are the ones associated with madness not rogues but namely priests call on entities via worship for their power which means that it is likely those entities (void lords) that induce madness.

We aren’t told so we don’t know. And must just rely on what we are shown.

Void elves don’t get mad from using the void. Altho we have examples of some skittering on the edge of sanity, most do not. We are told how Alleria can with stand the whispers via her training with the locus Walker and that her race is elves are unique here. Though not all elves who use void retain sanity, but they didn’t have her training.

We know Umbric and others are Mage scholars, their void magic approach is more scientific not beseeching entities, that could greatly help in minimising insanity.

We just don’t know how it all works to assert rogue go mad

- - - Updated - - -

Who's to say they aren't mad, that one who devotes their life to one so devoted to living in the shadows, against the law of order... A dead noble here... a dead innocent here... a robbed family, unable to feed a child who may have done something great for the world, could have saved it... To what knock-on impact could The Void have, manipulating the future in such a way, in just one errant criminal? A lifetime of crime is a lot.

Simpler answer may be because the amount of casting is so small. Kind of begs why Shadow Priests can't stealth, I guess. I guess they aren't sneaky enough to make use of it -- too noisy for it to be useful. But then again, they used to be able to... with like, Spectral Guise, I guess.

As for the school of magic, yeah maybe it should be half physical half shadow or something. Sources say Stealth can be either/or - it can just be sneaking, or it can be Void. At least for flavor, it'd be neat if it were accurate like that. If there is or was a balance reason why Stealth was better marked as not a Shadow ability, I can't think of why it'd be important now if ever it was appropriate.

Why should they be able stealth? Just e void magic is used? Different classes can obviously use the same power to do different things because they have a different skill set.


It s like saying just cause a warrior can tip toe or try to sneak that he should be able to stealth. Warriors aren’t trained to use their physical bodies that way. Nor are priests trained to use the void in that way

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A mature response for a not mature person who keep arguing with the canon



A subrace is the same race with minor variations, there is not enough difference for then to be their own race..

Wait. Did I miss something?? When did Blizzard officially define sun races?

Can you provide a source?

Do they specify how much variation constitutes a sub race? Or is this just your definition??