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  1. #441
    Question: Did Zovaal just merge the two halves of her soul into one again, or did he ALSO make her mortal i.e. fully resurrect her to life?

    Zovaal left Sylvanas to the mercy of the mortals. But they could hold no power over the Banshee Queen. She could just adopt banshee form and fly off. She is too powerful to be jailed in any real sense. The only way the cinematic makes sense in my mind is if he ALSO made her mortal again and fully resurrected her. Thoughts?
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  2. #442
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Only thing that makes me feel a bit better about this whole thing is ironically the fact that Sylvanas was never a master planner.

    She was a dumb, vapid moron genuinely sucking on a coolaid tube of the Jailer.

    She thought he would do some “great recolution” or something but instead he just put a proverbial crown on his head and smacked her with a sceptre.

    And she was like “woooow… i never expected that…”.

    Hard to hate someone so stupid. She honestly as naive as a newborn!

    But still, where does the blame go then? And… What about the whole “resolution for the genocide” and all?
    That and let's not forget.

    Woman is one hop skip and a jump away from kelthuzad.

    I hope people don't get confused and think she shot that arrow because of some moral dilemma. Nope. It's when she realized that her fate would be the same as Maw'duin and Renethal. She would have been totally fine if all of the others were in chains so long as she doesn't have to serve.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    While this is not a defense of this joke by any means, I think people are going too far with this "how could Sylvanas trust his obviously evil plan"...
    Before anything else, this is the most genuinely impressive steelman I've seen of this narrative thus far, intentional or otherwise and I can't wait for the book to try and fail to do the same in a thousand time as many words. I can come around to a lot of it, even if nothing can deal with the elephant in the room that is the tower of Babylon of retcons that got us to this point. I disagree on where the narrative fails. I'll go over what I can buy and be made to make sense if you accept the stupid premise before I head into what is irreparable.

    Firstly, I've no issue believing that Sylvanas knows that the plan requires torturing this many people and going along with it anyway. She's both personally selfish enough to set that aside and from the point of view of her both alive and dead she was perfectly willing to throw people under the bus so the job gets done. A version of the plan where reality is rewritten so that she (and everyone else) doesn't have their fates decided for them by a broken robot and where even in the afterlife you can trip, break your neck and go to oblivion is something that would obviously be appealing to her and her being on board with torturing people she doesn't know or care about to see it done and who would be bound for a fate she deems terrible anyway is completely in keeping with her attitude. At worst she's letting some of them cook for a little while so that the rest can benefit. So far so good.

    I also actually disagree with your breaking point on Sylvanas only caring about the free will of the undead - Sylvanas didn't give a shit about their free will either, what she cared about was herself being free from others' influence, first in being raised and controlled by Arthas then with her escape from that sending her into turbo hell. She has sympathies for Quel'thalas and the Forsaken and helps them out of pragmatism, but not out of any kind of conviction. The idea that she would react to learning that her afterlife and everyone else's is both deterministic, decided on by a machine and that as a side note, all of life exists solely to give raw fuel in the form of anima to death by wanting to destroy all of it to free herself and everyone else by proxy is in that sense plausible.

    I'll go one further actually and even cover the bit with the Blue Man up to a point. To start with, she has extant buy-in with him if we assume he introduced himself to her as the one who sent the Val'kyr to save her. Saving her from super hell is in the good books. For another, there's no implication that she could travel back and forth to the Maw before, knew what he looked like or had any version of events presented to her but the one he told her up to the part where she actually broke the veil and went into the afterlife. On top of that, her conception of herself as being a partner to him rather than considering herself a servant is at that point still viable. Yes, he empowers her and saved her from hell, but his only chance of busting out and accomplishing anything at all is contingent on her breaking in and reaching him. If she at any point decided that she'd sooner neck herself after all, his plan is shit out of luck. She does have leverage up until the point she enters the Maw, her conception of herself as being his accomplice rather than his goon isn't without grounding at that point. Up to that point, if you accept the retcons, all of this crap you can sort of gel together.

    No, where it falls apart irreparably is when she actually enters the Maw and gets to meet him.

    Once she enters the Shadowlands not only can she actually see what the dude is like without a filter, in all his WoW Satan glory and see that he's malevolent, not only see that he employs Kel'thuzad and has the Lich King's tools and so has obviously set her up, as well as that she wasn't going to be bound for the Maw in the first place, but more importantly than even that, she loses all leverage. Sylvanas disregarding this guy being transparently obviously evil and even disregarding that he had no intention of rewriting reality to solve these problems but to put himself at the top can all be swallowed if she has any kind of reason to believe she can assert power over the situation. But she doesn't. Once Blanduin is captured, she's got nothing and she does nothing to try and gain leverage, instead blindly trusting this guy. Her getting furious because he crossed her doesn't work because by the time she knows he has Kel'thuzad in his employ, she knows he's responsible for everything about her predicament if she's not a mental patient. Her asking him about what he means to do about Denathrius as if A) She has any reason to care and B) having now seen what he's about she has any reason to believe he cares either strains credulity even further. The idea that she considered herself a partner in crime and his plan usable for her ends before she actually meets him and loses all influence over the situation is fine. Her being completely unprepared and acting like a stroke victim in shock at how bad he is after it's shoved in her face what he's about doesn't. The setup requires her to be naive and stupid and develop values and care for people she's never had before as well as just take him at his word. That's why even the absolute steelman of the situation doesn't work.

    It could possibly have worked if she was portrayed in the Shadowlands as being under duress and desperate, knowing she fucked herself and has no way out since she's without leverage. You could even do most of the same plot beats. But she isn't, she's presented as someone with zero self-awareness who has to have Anduin explain something to her that's blindingly obvious and who turns on the Blue Man because of people she tried to kill and who would be unmade if she achieved her plan anyway.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-07 at 07:07 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #444
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I didn't get that at all. I doubt Sylvanas even knew she was missing a part of her soul. The Jailer obviously did not give that soul splinter back to her as a promised reward, but as a punishment. I believe she will suffer a lot when we see her again in the next patch. I mean, that soul sliver was unaltered by undeath. That good part of her will reflect on what the bad part did. Also, we know that undead senses are numbed and their souls twisted so that they can't feel their rotting body. Now that an untouched part of her soul got back to her, maybe she will...
    On that note. Her brains did get blown out in Cata. So maybe the rest of the soul is about to arrive in a body that's you know.......lacking certain key cognitive abilities.

    But maybe that's exactly why she didn't know that helping the guy who kelthuzad is in league with and caused her to die at Arthas hand is not really a great idea in the first place.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    On that note. Her brains did get blown out in Cata. So maybe the rest of the soul is about to arrive in a body that's you know.......lacking certain key cognitive abilities.
    The plot twist is that the thing the Jailer threw at her was her crystallized brain and she fell unconscious out of shock at her own stupidity.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #446
    Let's say a mortgage / lending corporation (for the purposes of this example we will name this corporation "Countrywide") does a lot of bad dealings and evil stuff and eventually ruins the dreams of millions of homeowners and crashes the economy. Before they can be fully punished, they merge with some other entity (in this example, let's say they merge with Bank of America). Should Bank of America be held accountable? Many of the employees of Countrywide that were involved in the mess would still be there, just employed by B of A along with others that had nothing to do with it.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  7. #447
    I think I like the explanation that Sylvanas is so mongoloid because her brains somehow got damaged severely when Godfrey shot her in the head, it makes sense. Even if the Val'kyrs restored her back to "life" they likely couldn't fix her brain, which was kind of blown up. That happens when you get shot at point blank range by a magical shotgun in the head.

    So Yeah I think Sylvanas is so dumb because her brain is quite literally splattered all over her skull or something like that. Maybe it's got a huge hole in it from Godfrey's shot.

  8. #448
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The plot twist is that the thing the Jailer threw at her was her crystallized brain and she fell unconscious out of shock at her own stupidity.
    You realize what this means right?

    Sylvanas fought against a werewolf and came out on top.

    Sylvanas fought demons and came out on top.

    Sylvanas fought one of the best damn warriors in the world and came out on top.

    Sylvanas fought the Lich King and came out on top.

    Sylvanas fought the night warrior and came out on top.

    Sylvanas fought Lord Vincent Godfrey, and he one shot her.

    Cosmic forces 0, bullet 1
    Last edited by Minikin; 2021-07-07 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Forgot my boy Saurfang
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So Yeah I think Sylvanas is so dumb because her brain is quite literally splattered all over her skull or something like that. Maybe it's got a huge hole in it from Godfrey's shot.
    A compelling theory but let down by her trusting Varimathras and powersliding into a sword before that happened. The brainrot set in in life, it just advanced in death. The Val'kyr harvested more and more brain matter with every resurrection and she wears the hood to conceal that the back of her head is concave.

    @Minikin

    He can rest easy knowing he tried to stop this. Also that bullet is tougher than a sheer drop from Icecrown Citadel and the rage of Elune.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    I couldn't understand a thing the Jailer was saying. Someone get him in speech therapy.
    Was your volume on?
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    They're literally infertile and have no sexual drive. I wouldn't... call them that.

    I don't like 40K orks because Warcraft ones are 100 times more interesting.
    C'mon, the WH40K lore and basically everything in is pure campiness and heavy metal. It is cringe as fuck. Yes, i like that cringe. Is commisar waving his sword while his crew driving Leman Russ cool? Oh hell yeah! Is it cringe as fuck? Oh hell yeah!

    Same with space marines, i mean, i cant take anything from that lore and world seriously and i love Wh40k and WFB.

  12. #452
    What makes no sense is the power boost Sylvanas got when she allied with the Jailer.

    If the Jailer had that kind of power to throw around, why doesn't he do anything himself? Makes no sense.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    Was your volume on?
    I don't know, I had volume on and still couldn't understand a word of what he said. Really gotta thank YT for those convenient subtitles.

    More OT, her being shocked by the word "serve" after all she's done... WTF? Did writers forget what she said in e.g. Three Sisters or is she just schizophrenic, with megalomany and memory loss on top?
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  14. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    More OT, her being shocked by the word "serve" after all she's done... WTF? Did writers forget what she said in e.g. Three Sisters or is she just schizophrenic, with megalomany and memory loss on top?
    Yea this really sets up that moment as being about as petty and unheroic an attempt to stop the big bad as can be.

    She simply doesn't want to be bossed HERSELF, but is fine with bossing others around.

    I mean if that's what we're going with, okay, that's not very compelling.
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  15. #455
    Congratulations to Steve Daloser are in order.
    I thought he could not do something more crap than what he did until now, but the absolute madman did it!

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    No, where it falls apart irreparably is when she actually enters the Maw and gets to meet him.
    From a current view on the story, yes.

    Overall, no, the story fell apart when they tried to make us believe that Sylvanas was in “partnership” with the Jailer since Wotlk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    What makes no sense is the power boost Sylvanas got when she allied with the Jailer.

    If the Jailer had that kind of power to throw around, why doesn't he do anything himself? Makes no sense.
    But what boost did she get? Chains? Thats it? Where is the real power boost we can see, and don´t give me the LK cinematic because it´s chains...

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by cirdanx View Post
    From a current view on the story, yes.

    Overall, no, the story fell apart when they tried to make us believe that Sylvanas was in “partnership” with the Jailer since Wotlk.
    Oh, obviously. It's why I prefaced it by saying I wouldn't even bother discussing that aspect. Tying the resolution of a character with nearly 20 years in the franchise to one with less than two and making her his proxy after elimating her prior motivation and rewriting her internal monologue twice over would never have worked even if the execution were magnitudes better than what it was. The whole point of the post is that even if you take the story as presented at its strongest possible interpretation there's still a hurdle it can't clear when it comes to its internal coherence and it consequently fails.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I don't know what people mean when they dislike it that hard. I have to say, as incredibly janky and cheap as the cinematic was, seeing the Warchief tell not just this throw-away grey raid boss, but also the entire moral framework of the last few terrible expansion plots he was stuck in to go fuck themselves, proclaim that he did nothing wrong and go out one last time on his own terms was unironically enjoyable. For it to end any other way would have been out of character and for once I don't think anyone can seriously argue Blizzard didn't capture both the spirit of his character and his appeal.

    Press F(or the Horde) for Garrosh.

    Oh, you mean the Sylvanas one? Dear fucking christ, where do I start?

    For one, coming out of a raid fight entirely unscathed removes the entire point of making a character a raid boss. This was the case for Jaina, it is even more the case here because the players are literally right behind her in this scene and it ends with her knocked out but with them having zero role to it. The mark of a completely failed right fight is that you could cut it and zero would change.

    For another, while the Blue Man's new design is marginally better, it's still aggressively boring. You could swap it in for any of his minions' designs and save for the pants I doubt anyone would even notice. No chance of a personality transplant either, but I will say that possibly the only marginally nice thing to be said about this cinematic is that him stopping his grand plan just to dick around with some randos and then giving Sylvanas her soul back just to incapacitate her and let the Bland Gang deal with her is at least some characterization and I found it pretty funny.

    As for the elephant in the room, everything regarding Sylvanas's lolredemption is fucking wretched from beginning to end. The soul split thing will always have been an agency stripping device and get out of jail free card, but the absolute most dire part about it is that it's also completely unnecessary and contradictory since all her Sad (TM) looks these last few cutscene show that she wasn't controlled in the first place, so what's the point? Unless of course, what he threw back at her was her IQ and she fell unconscious because the realization of her own crippling mental retardation was too much for her to hold. The entire premise of rewriting Sylvanas to have always been about trusting the least trustworthy man in the universe who didn't exist until five minutes ago was always a drama sinkhole, but to have her turn on him over him stating what was blatantly his motive, and not over torturing a gorillion souls is something else entirely. It takes a million being statistic to the next level. It satisfies absolutely no one - absolutely everyone who wanted any kind of even temporary enjoyment of beating a raid boss, something that Garrosh (PBUH) got, gets zilch as she is totally unharmed and undeterred and scheduled for an abysmal redemption. Everyone who wanted the character to regain her past characterization and die on her own terms, again like Garrosh, is shit out of luck - her past characterization was externally induced and it's actually this plot device the Blue Man chucked at her that will reveal her true personality, presumably as an Anduinist.

    @VladlTutushkin Beer?
    I gotta say I... kind of actually like the armor. It's not Arthas-tier of good, not even close, but it's far better than him looking like a magical bum. The Primus and Denathrius both still look cooler however.

    Yeah, Sylvanas being a braindead moron is the main takeaway, and at the risk of invoking Death of the Author (which I generally don't like doing), it's what I interpret as canon. Sylvanas was always an imbecile; it's why she powerslid into Frostmourne, it's why she failed in her attempt to ambush Arthas, it's why she trusted the likes of Varimathras or Lord Godfrey, it's why she basically failed upwards for the entirety of her runtime in the MMO, it's why her motives, plans and personality all shift around on a dime, and it's finally why she is full on team Jailer despite friggin Gul'dan looking and sounding less evil and untrustworthy than this guy. It all makes sense now in its own hilarious way, and it's the only way I'll ever interpret the character moving forward; always remember that she's the one stupidest character in Warcraft, which is no mean feat by the by.

    I dunno who they wanted to satisfy with this, besides Danuser's... peculiar hard-on for the character. At least I can see why they don't change Anduin, besides Golden loving her perfect boy there are also a decent chunk of players who like his brand of Lawful Good. But who actually wants to see Sylvanas, a character previously defined by being ruthless and underhanded, be hit with a massive dose of both stupidity and redemption? Who actually wants her living soul (?) forced back into her so she forcibly becomes a nicer person? Not the ones who hate her and want overdue justice, which even her boss fight doesn't provide as it ends at 50% HP, and certainly not the fans of a character that literally gets a personality transplant before their eyes.

    As for Garrosh, he indeed died as he lived, shouting and doing pointless chest-thumping shenanigans. If nothing else, at least he was consistent.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Oh, obviously. It's why I prefaced it by saying I wouldn't even bother discussing that aspect. Tying the resolution of a character with nearly 20 years in the franchise to one with less than two and making her his proxy after elimating her prior motivation and rewriting her internal monologue twice over would never have worked even if the execution were magnitudes better than what it was. The whole point of the post is that even if you take the story as presented at its strongest possible interpretation there's still a hurdle it can't clear when it comes to its internal coherence and it consequently fails.
    A hurdle..many of them.

    But you are absolutely right. Nothing to say a against this. I 99% agree.

  20. #460
    At long last, his true form... generic Torghast mob... whoa...

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