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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yeah, annoying people who think:
    1) This is World of Warcraft, not Sylvanas' Merry Adventures
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass

    By the way, Danuser was the lead writer in BfA, Afrasiabi only set the general idea.
    Danuser, Afrasiabi and Hazzikostas all have some share of responsibility for the executive decisions, which made it turn out the way it did, in terms of storylines and even if the choices weren't explicitely theirs they are the leaders responsible for the project. Any one of them could have said "This sounds absolutely autistic, maybe we shouldn't do it this way." and it would have changed.

    1) I think any Sylvanas fan would wish that were the case. What it actually is more resembles "Adventures of Thrall, Jaina and WhoeverTheFuckTagsAlongForTheTimeBeing reacting to plot that entirely happens to originate in the left field half the time, which happens to be featuring Sylvanas occasionally, with radical shifts in personality every time we see her."

    Name me one of the three core pillars of plot regarding Sylvanas, which we know as hard facts.
    What is she specifically trying to achieve? (Objective)
    Why is she trying to achieve it? (Motive)
    What are the consequences of her failing to achieve it? (Stakes)



    2) Vegeta, Majin Bu, Prince Zuko, Tony Stark, Frank castle, Ghost Rider, Thanos(comicbook version after snap), Doctor Doom, Luke Skywalker and many many others.

    If it's a good well written story audiences can be tremendously forgiving and even cheer to the deaths of milions of nameless grunts, who happened to oppose the protagonist of the piece. In grand pop-culture scheme of things what Sylvanas did is actually comparably pretty tame. Where the story dove headfirst into diarrhea is that it was built on many layers of contrived character breaking choices, which was followed by a shitshow seeking to condemn and demonise the character as hard as possible, while pretending there is a grander narrative going on.
    Last edited by sighy; 2021-07-22 at 05:49 PM.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    2) A character who commits genocide, torture, and more shouldn't get a free pass
    I don't think anyone is talking "free pass" - unless that is code for "anything that isn't outright execution", which makes very little sense.

    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?

    But in any event, redemption arcs are a dime a dozen in fiction. There's nothing special about Sylvanas in that respect.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?
    "During wartime no less"... you do realize that she's the one who started this war, right? And then we learned that she did that to doom numerous souls to hell in the afterlife, just to give her new master (whom she totally doesn't serve) more power.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?
    Garrosh destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.
    Sylvanas destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.

    The difference is that the former gave the civilians time to clear the area before doing so.
    There's a clear distinction between killing hundreds of armed forces and killing hundreds of armed forces, but then celebrating it by burning thousands of civilians alive.

  5. #705
    Dreadlord Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Alright, she said: “You cannot let him reach the”. As she pronounced “the” there should be a Vowel next word. Sepulcher has a consonant at the beginning. So either it is Azeroth or Ulduar.
    #SaveAlgalon

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Alright, she said: “You cannot let him reach the”. As she pronounced “the” there should be a Vowel next word. Sepulcher has a consonant at the beginning. So either it is Azeroth or Ulduar.
    The Sepulcher of the First Ones.

  7. #707
    Dreadlord Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    The Sepulcher of the First Ones.
    In that case the pronunciation would be the way she did? I really hope you are right.
    #SaveAlgalon

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I don't think anyone is talking "free pass" - unless that is code for "anything that isn't outright execution", which makes very little sense.

    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?

    But in any event, redemption arcs are a dime a dozen in fiction. There's nothing special about Sylvanas in that respect.
    Teldrassil was not one city. As Tyrande Teldrassil noted, this is an entire state. And Blizzard tweeted that Teldrassil is much more in lore than in the game.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    In that case the pronunciation would be the way she did? I really hope you are right.
    The Sepulcher of the First Ones, or the Sepulcher for short, is a mysterious location containing the secrets of the First Ones. Its location is hidden and a closely guarded secret. The attendants of Korthia are forbidden from discussing it, even with allies.

    The Primus believed that once the Jailer collects the five sigils of the Eternal Ones, he will be able to reach the Sepulcher, something the Primus thinks would be catastrophic. He hid his own sigil in the Vault of Secrets on Korthia and bound it with magic in order to prevent this.

    The Primus was eventually proven right, when the Jailer eventually managed to collect all five sigils and opened a portal to the Sepulcher from Oribos. Sylvanas Windrunner was then captured by the Ebon Blade for further interrogation on the Jailer's plans.

    The brokers of Cartel Ba and Cartel Al have also been looking for the Sepulcher. The broker Al'firim draws a distinction between this sepulcher and the Sepulcher of Knowledge in Maldraxxus.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Garrosh destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.
    Sylvanas destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.

    The difference is that the former gave the civilians time to clear the area before doing so.
    There's a clear distinction between killing hundreds of armed forces and killing hundreds of armed forces, but then celebrating it by burning thousands of civilians alive.
    No one is saying those two are the same, or that what Sylvanas did wasn't atrocious.

    But it wasn't genocide. That word has a distinct meaning, and it's not simply some kind of superlative for war crimes.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    2) Vegeta, Majin Bu, Prince Zuko, Tony Stark, Frank castle, Ghost Rider, Thanos(comicbook version after snap), Doctor Doom, Luke Skywalker and many many others.

    If it's a good well written story audiences can be tremendously forgiving and even cheer to the deaths of milions of nameless grunts, who happened to oppose the protagonist of the piece. In grand pop-culture scheme of things what Sylvanas did is actually comparably pretty tame.
    The difference is in your examples most of the atrocities happened off screen to areas/peoples we had no connection with or were later reversed.

    What they did in WoW was decimate the Alliance's second most popular race and raze a starting zone many of us had emotional attachments to, in fact, our first introduction to the world of Warcraft itself. I'm struggling to think of a villain who permanently destroyed something dear to me that I eventually came around to forgiving, especially as night elf fans have been given no catharsis with Sylvanas. She has, up to this point, gotten away with everything with no consequences, a clear conscience, and no "greater good" purpose to justify anything she's done.

    I don't have confidence in the current writing team turning this around either, especially as they've already set the stage to waive everything she's done with the (weak) excuse that her soul was split.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I don't think anyone is talking "free pass" - unless that is code for "anything that isn't outright execution", which makes very little sense.

    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?

    But in any event, redemption arcs are a dime a dozen in fiction. There's nothing special about Sylvanas in that respect.
    Don't start the genocide discussion again. Blizzard themselves called it that, there is no need for you to try to relevate any of this.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    The difference is in your examples most of the atrocities happened off screen to areas/peoples we had no connection with or were later reversed.

    What they did in WoW was decimate the Alliance's second most popular race and raze a starting zone many of us had emotional attachments to, in fact, our first introduction to the world of Warcraft itself. I'm struggling to think of a villain who permanently destroyed something dear to me that I eventually came around to forgiving, especially as night elf fans have been given no catharsis with Sylvanas. She has, up to this point, gotten away with everything with no consequences, a clear conscience, and no "greater good" purpose to justify anything she's done.
    You forgot to mention that the writers even involved the Horde as a faction and made Horde players cheer for genocide.

    That's some moral lesson you want to teach your kids. GENOCIDE IS FUN - and whoever it happens to probably deserves it.


  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Garrosh destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.
    Sylvanas destroyed one island, with one big city on it and during wartime no less.

    The difference is that the former gave the civilians time to clear the area before doing so.
    There's a clear distinction between killing hundreds of armed forces and killing hundreds of armed forces, but then celebrating it by burning thousands of civilians alive.
    Not defending the person you quoted or anything but didn’t Garrosh also capture those civilians to have them tortured in ogrimmar and used as target dummies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  15. #715
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I don't think anyone is talking "free pass" - unless that is code for "anything that isn't outright execution", which makes very little sense.

    Just as little sense as the whole "genocide" accusation. She destroyed one island, with one big city on it, and during wartime no less. How does that rise to the level of "genocide" all of a sudden?

    But in any event, redemption arcs are a dime a dozen in fiction. There's nothing special about Sylvanas in that respect.
    friendly reminder before Teldrassil: Astranaar, Silverwing Refuge, Auberdine, and Lor'danel were all down to the last civilian; and the Horde didn't stop at Teldrassil either as they went to hunt down the fleeing civilians in Azuremyst Island too

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by alt-ithist View Post
    Not defending the person you quoted or anything but didn’t Garrosh also capture those civilians to have them tortured in ogrimmar and used as target dummies?
    not just Theramore citizens, but Darkspears too - his own people as the warchief of the Horde

    just imagine Garithos not only having Kael'thas and his men executed but also capturing the Blood Elven women to be brought down to some secret Dalaran Dungeon to be done with by the Lordaeronian troops before getting tortured to death
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    The difference is in your examples most of the atrocities happened off screen to areas/peoples we had no connection with or were later reversed.

    What they did in WoW was decimate the Alliance's second most popular race and raze a starting zone many of us had emotional attachments to, in fact, our first introduction to the world of Warcraft itself. I'm struggling to think of a villain who permanently destroyed something dear to me that I eventually came around to forgiving, especially as night elf fans have been given no catharsis with Sylvanas. She has, up to this point, gotten away with everything with no consequences, a clear conscience, and no "greater good" purpose to justify anything she's done.

    I don't have confidence in the current writing team turning this around either, especially as they've already set the stage to waive everything she's done with the (weak) excuse that her soul was split.
    At least Night Elves didn't lose any notable characters and get some wierd light undead idiot thing to replace them, which shouldn't even exist since it is established light burns undead and causes them a great deal of pain. (Ofc talking about Calia Menethil) On top of losing the starting zone and seeing their race's most central character be heavily retconned multiple times to suit a narrative that has her randomly abruptly break character all the time.

    Imagine if say Malfurion betrayed the Night Elves and the Aliance to work with Xavius to become the NightMalfurion or something dumb like that, because of reasons never revealed until the story is basically over, if that. You don't know his objective, motive, stakes or any such thing over the course of like 2 expansions, where the first one focussed on demonising him as much as possible.



    At this point i just kind of hope they sweep it under the rug, as he working on the inside to make it a war we can win, instead of slow hidden suffocating scheme. Tying it as a sort of spy thriller game of shadows sort of deal. Wouldn't be great or anything, but it wouldn't be completely asinine and allow her to claim ownership of the actions, whilst displaying agency and all that.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Alright, she said: “You cannot let him reach the”. As she pronounced “the” there should be a Vowel next word. Sepulcher has a consonant at the beginning. So either it is Azeroth or Ulduar.
    Neither Azeroth nor Ulduar are pronounced with an article, since they are proper nouns. Also, even if a non-zero article were appropriate, "the" has only one pronunciation, disregarding accents.

  18. #718
    Dreadlord Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladier View Post
    Neither Azeroth nor Ulduar are pronounced with an article, since they are proper nouns. Also, even if a non-zero article were appropriate, "the" has only one pronunciation, disregarding accents.
    I don't know, I have read somewhere that when the comes before a vowel sound, we pronounce it as a long "thee". When we wish to place emphasis on a particular word, we can use "emphatic the" [thee], whether or not the word begins with a consonant or vowel sound. I might be wrong. I really hope I am because it's clear I don't want the Jailer to attack Ulduar. That would really suck having planet without Moon and Stars.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-07-25 at 11:32 AM.
    #SaveAlgalon

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    You forgot to mention that the writers even involved the Horde as a faction and made Horde players cheer for genocide.
    As per usual, they were going for cheap shock value and then act surprised players haven't been on board with the story or interested in Sylvanas since they took it too far back in the BfA pre-patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    At least Night Elves didn't lose any notable characters
    I would've happily made the trade of Malfurion for Teldrassil. No, we've just had to deal with Tyrande and her impotent Night Warrior arc which, aside from a brief scuffle with Sylvanas, amounted to a lot of nothing. Now she'll follow suit with the rest of the Alliance in forgiveness. Not to mention the aforementioned Malfurion being utterly useless and the lunacy of newly risen night elves, like Delaryn and Sira, siding with the Horde, that was also fantastic. -_-

    I'm biased towards Alliance, obviously, as a long time NE player/fan but, yeah, the story since War of Thorns has been abysmal for everyone.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    As per usual, they were going for cheap shock value and then act surprised players haven't been on board with the story or interested in Sylvanas since they took it too far back in the BfA pre-patch.



    I would've happily made the trade of Malfurion for Teldrassil. No, we've just had to deal with Tyrande and her impotent Night Warrior arc which, aside from a brief scuffle with Sylvanas, amounted to a lot of nothing. Now she'll follow suit with the rest of the Alliance in forgiveness. Not to mention the aforementioned Malfurion being utterly useless and the lunacy of newly risen night elves, like Delaryn and Sira, siding with the Horde, that was also fantastic. -_-

    I'm biased towards Alliance, obviously, as a long time NE player/fan but, yeah, the story since War of Thorns has been abysmal for everyone.
    "At least Night Elves didn't lose any notable characters" Yeah, no.

    We lost Sira Moonwarden to the Horde... just saying...I think getting the population of an entire racial capital genocided is quite enough. No "notable" characters needed to make it any worse.

    Btw, have you seen Malfurion lately? He kinda vanished from the face of the earth. He isn't in any shape or form involved in rescuing Tyrande from the grim Night Warrior fate, nor is he anywhere in the current game, standing around somewhere in SW, just as ruler of the remaining night elves. Just some usual nelf neglect by WoW devs. I wouldn't even ask for him to get any story, although it is highly unrealistic that he would leave Tyrande to a fate like that without trying to do something about it.

    But that he's not even in the game at this point really rubs me the wrong way, you know, just like Mekkatorque stands around in Gnomeregan or the Dwarven Council in Ironforge. But no. They didn't even bother to put a nelf leader in the game.
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2021-07-23 at 02:15 PM.


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