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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I was originally going to write up a big essay about how ridiculous your simping is and how stupid sylvanas' "sons of martha" moment was when telling people they serve her was one of her favorite phrases in legion and BFA.

    But then I read the bolded gem above.
    If you can't see how an intentionally inconsistent (by your own admission) plot device that exists solely to oblivate culpability in a character by putting their morals in a blue pokeball for 20 years removes agency there is no point engaging further, you have at this point proven you cannot critically analyse text.
    Maybe because she doesn’t see herself the same as the Lich King or the Jailer. She also said she herself does not “serve.” Can you just not see that characters have flaws.
    There are plenty of stories where people become or act like what they hate and don’t see it. Hell, look at what she was going to do with Jaina’s brother, making him a walking, brain washed bomb. To her, they were also ways to set people free of injustices she saw. Whether she is blind or not to the fact she acted the same way can be another topic.
    Basically, I think you’re just trying to sound intelligent while completely ignoring things in your face to hate on a company you just like to hate on.

    Also, just so I’m clear, are you honestly comparing Bruce and Clark’s sudden friendship out of a made up battle over the fact their mothers share one of the most common names in the world, to Sylvanas’ sudden realization that her partnership in trying to free people from an unjust system is nothing more than the same type of tyrant that she dedicated her entire undeath, and part of life, to destroying?

    Also, I want to add one last thing:
    https://mythicscribes.com/character-...racter-agency/

    Does it seem like the story would have progressed the same way, or that Sylvanas or Arthas, have acted against their own character, or that they didn’t influence the actions and outcomes of certain events?
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2021-07-09 at 06:21 PM.

  2. #462
    This is a well done cinematic, in a very good storyline. I'm very excited to see what is next.

  3. #463
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    She also said she herself does not “serve.”
    thats what shes been doing for quite some time now and suddenly the last 60s when its already too late she pops out the comment that she does not serve.
    Make no sense, just like the lore hasn't for two expansions with Sylvanas.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdef View Post
    Holy crap, the amount of 12-year old downvoting the hard work of NORMAL FOLKS is crazy.

    I hate you guys that do this so much. The ones who downvote a video like that, you all made me hate the job. I had to ignore you fuckers and try to find the fun in what I made, because you made me feel so awful for it all the time.

    I can't imagine how these people feel now that WoW has even more toxic hate.
    "Working hard" on something doesn't preclude you from criticism cupcake. Calling a downvote "toxic hate" because someone doesn't like it is absolutely laughable. As is hating someone for not liking something, it's something that 12 year old child you mentioned would do.

  5. #465
    Dreadlord zmp's Avatar
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    Does Shadowlands live up to the success of BFA so far?

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Y'all are just upset shit was predictable. And that's okay...

    BUT HOLY SHIT! ZOVAAL IS COOL AS FUCK!!

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sylvanas also thought she was "fighting" for good, despite the genocides and whatnot.

    She's an idiot.

    - - - Updated - - -


    And her luck's run out.
    Disagree, Zovaal looks like a level 1 skyrim character who just used console commands to deck himself out in daedric armor.

  7. #467
    Amusing.
    Several years ago I dared to question the devs for several 'minor' design and lore issues. I did that right here, on this website.
    The whole lot of sexn'ts spent two full days accusing me for 'boooo, he's trying to apply logic to a FANTASY SETTING GAME, booooooo!'. They even tried to get me banned for, quote, 'toxic posting'.
    Now they're squealing and screeching and whimpering about 'how bad and illogical the lore is'.
    Oh my. Jolly good. Who could've thought.

    This game has become a joke. Its lore has become a joke. The gameplay was ultimately reduced to a joke. And most importantly its community has become a joke. And you did it yourselves, willingly.
    I have the full right to scorn, blame and accuse what's left of WoW dev staff. Because I DID provide them with feedback, as negative as it may have been. As a 'customer', I did my part.
    But you lot?
    You dare not question the Actiblizzard. You encouraged them to degrade to their current state. You deliberately condoned this, you witch-hunted anyone who would disagree. Savor the outcome, ladies, for you deserve every last bit of this mockery.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellas View Post
    Amusing.
    Several years ago I dared to question the devs for several 'minor' design and lore issues. I did that right here, on this website.
    The whole lot of sexn'ts spent two full days accusing me for 'boooo, he's trying to apply logic to a FANTASY SETTING GAME, booooooo!'. They even tried to get me banned for, quote, 'toxic posting'.
    Now they're squealing and screeching and whimpering about 'how bad and illogical the lore is'.
    Oh my. Jolly good. Who could've thought.

    This game has become a joke. Its lore has become a joke. The gameplay was ultimately reduced to a joke. And most importantly its community has become a joke. And you did it yourselves, willingly.
    I have the full right to scorn, blame and accuse what's left of WoW dev staff. Because I DID provide them with feedback, as negative as it may have been. As a 'customer', I did my part.
    But you lot?
    You dare not question the Actiblizzard. You encouraged them to degrade to their current state. You deliberately condoned this, you witch-hunted anyone who would disagree. Savor the outcome, ladies, for you deserve every last bit of this mockery.
    What do you not like about the story rn outside the obvious Sylvanas shit? It's okay to talk about it here.

  9. #469
    Blizz can write 3 antagonistic archetypes:
    - ultimate evil
    - corrupted/mind-controlled
    - total idiot

    Only thing you can do with the story is press ESC -> skip.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellas View Post
    Amusing.
    Several years ago I dared to question the devs for several 'minor' design and lore issues. I did that right here, on this website.
    The whole lot of sexn'ts spent two full days accusing me for 'boooo, he's trying to apply logic to a FANTASY SETTING GAME, booooooo!'. They even tried to get me banned for, quote, 'toxic posting'.
    Now they're squealing and screeching and whimpering about 'how bad and illogical the lore is'.
    Oh my. Jolly good. Who could've thought.

    This game has become a joke. Its lore has become a joke. The gameplay was ultimately reduced to a joke. And most importantly its community has become a joke. And you did it yourselves, willingly.
    I have the full right to scorn, blame and accuse what's left of WoW dev staff. Because I DID provide them with feedback, as negative as it may have been. As a 'customer', I did my part.
    But you lot?
    You dare not question the Actiblizzard. You encouraged them to degrade to their current state. You deliberately condoned this, you witch-hunted anyone who would disagree. Savor the outcome, ladies, for you deserve every last bit of this mockery.
    You joined in 2020 and you have 25 posts. Yeah, you really made a stink "several years ago". Sure.

    We're gonna need some proof of your prescience before we acknowledge anything you have to say, champ.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  11. #471
    Scarab Lord TriHard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    There has to be some kind of logic though. What about the Night Elves and everyone who likes them? Why are they going to get thrown to the trash? After everything Sylvanas has done to them, and Tyrande failing to enact her revenge, the worst thing to do would be to redeem Sylvanas and give the Night Elves zero closure.
    Closure doesn't neccesarily mean that they kill off the person behind those actions. I imagine we're going to get yet another off-screen trial like they did for Garrosh, because you know, all the best storytelling happens off-screen for whatever reason.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Why would sylvan as 'deserved' a redemption story and the characters you mention not? She did more atrocity then them, you can even compare the harm and suffering she this so far, she's pretty much Arthas on steroids, crime wise
    Because Arthas, Illidan and Garrosh all did the things they did by their own free will, Sylv however has been herself since her soul was taken away, all morals and such cast aside, it's kind of hard to comment on her still because they've not wrapped up Shadowlands which is essentially her expansion, so I kinda just have to wait until later and see what happens.
    But I'd like to see what Sylvanas is like with her soul returned.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by EyelessCrow View Post
    "Working hard" on something doesn't preclude you from criticism cupcake. Calling a downvote "toxic hate" because someone doesn't like it is absolutely laughable. As is hating someone for not liking something, it's something that 12 year old child you mentioned would do.
    FWIW, it's learned behavior. The internet has made it acceptable to just lash out at things. Your "thumbs down" isn't indicative of anything to blizzard, other than group think. That's it. That's all they learned.

    They learned that the internet, when it doesn't like sometime you made or disagrees with it, despite it's quality or lack thereof, you will be downvoted. Why? Because it's acceptable to be negative on the internet, and to be outwardly negative, and vocally negative, etc.

    Nobody is accountable for what they say, or how they say, or the fashion in which they deliver it, that everyone is jumping over themselves to share about how much something upsets them, or to give their immediate opinion in the form of a simple thumb up or down.

    My most memorable thumbs up or thumbs down?

    https://www.italymagazine.com/sites/...?itok=tllXgUwD

    I mean, is that the type of ... depth you want in your replies about things? Because that's what you get. Shallowness.

  13. #473
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriHard View Post
    Because Arthas, Illidan and Garrosh all did the things they did by their own free will, Sylv however has been herself since her soul was taken away, all morals and such cast aside, it's kind of hard to comment on her still because they've not wrapped up Shadowlands which is essentially her expansion, so I kinda just have to wait until later and see what happens.
    But I'd like to see what Sylvanas is like with her soul returned.
    Arthas lost his soul when taking up frostmourn any thing he did past that point can’t be held to him any more then the things sylvanas did hell he arguable has less culpability if sylvanas soul was actually split and she still had half.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Arthas lost his soul when taking up frostmourn any thing he did past that point can’t be held to him any more then the things sylvanas did hell he arguable has less culpability if sylvanas soul was actually split and she still had half.
    except that at the end of the Arthas novel he actively rejects both Ner'zul (the LK) and his own humanity.

    I find it hard to side with the idea that Arthas is not responsible for what he did when he actively chose to kill what was his left of his humanity.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  15. #475
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    except that at the end of the Arthas novel he actively rejects both Ner'zul (the LK) and his own humanity.

    I find it hard to side with the idea that Arthas is not responsible for what he did when he actively chose to kill what was his left of his humanity.

    For all we know the mind scape at the end of the novel is within frostmourn/the helm and the arthas in charge is him soulless with kid arthas being his soul meaning it wasn’t part of him but was a distinct entity like ner’zhul.

    What we do know for sure is he lost his soul when taking up frostmourn this is stated by every source ever to depict the event.

    So if sylvanas isn’t capable because she had half a soul then neither Is post frostmourn arthas who lost all of his soul.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachturnal View Post
    Is there really a partnership when you're doing the bidding of an all-powerful being that rules the realm of death akin to a god? I don't know man. She served him up Teldrassil, started a whole war and turned Anduin. Sounds like we're serving.
    She isn't doing his bidding. Everything she has done was of her own choosing, not orders from The Jailer. She thought she was working in partnership wth him. She never served him.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    She isn't doing his bidding. Everything she has done was of her own choosing, not orders from The Jailer. She thought she was working in partnership wth him. She never served him.
    "all will serve death!, except for me, we have a partnership".

    Sounds kinda weak.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    For all we know the mind scape at the end of the novel is within frostmourn/the helm and the arthas in charge is him soulless with kid arthas being his soul meaning it wasn’t part of him but was a distinct entity like ner’zhul.

    What we do know for sure is he lost his soul when taking up frostmourn this is stated by every source ever to depict the event.

    So if sylvanas isn’t capable because she had half a soul then neither Is post frostmourn arthas who lost all of his soul.
    fortunately I don't believe having only half a soul absolves Sylvanas of anything and if the writers go in that direction it just further proves what talentless hacks they are.
    'obvious evil person isn't actually evil because they were not themselves' is a pretty low point in writing without a proper setup, which Sylvanas's story lacks and at points actively contridicts.
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2021-07-12 at 05:11 PM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    For all we know the mind scape at the end of the novel is within frostmourn/the helm and the arthas in charge is him soulless with kid arthas being his soul meaning it wasn’t part of him but was a distinct entity like ner’zhul.

    What we do know for sure is he lost his soul when taking up frostmourn this is stated by every source ever to depict the event.

    So if sylvanas isn’t capable because she had half a soul then neither Is post frostmourn arthas who lost all of his soul.
    As a side, purely because I saw this poster - if you want to see a well- thought out, relateable 'villain' who I actually felt bad for because of the wrong-doings against him - Aurelian Lorgar in First Heretic book = amazing read

    WoW has a very long way to getting the fleshed out character bqck stories that some of the warhammer chaps/chapettes have!

    In terms of Sylvanas, everyone is acting like this is news to them, but it has been discussed on this forum for a long long time that this redemption arc was coming - predictable story telling at its finest!

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Doombringer View Post
    UGH. Literally anyone could have done better.

    If you want her to betray him as a story point... why not make it about her bargain being to get her soul back? And he DENIES her that, and it prompts her to TURN AGAINST HIM. He can still shrug off her attack and then say, fine, here's your soul back, but I'm LEAVING YOU HERE WITH THEM. He then abandons her to justice at the hands of her peers instead of her escaping to whatever.

    Almost essentially the same but at least motivations are clear??

    But no, your twist is that she decides to stop SERVING? She only NOW sees the total parallel of Jailer and Lich King?! You're telling me she was entirely all right with his "plan" up until ... when exactly, when his plan goes accordingly and he essentially wins?

    This is terrible. WHAT was Sylvanas' motivation up until now?
    Her motivation? She has been very upfront, and clear, about it from the start of the Expac.
    She sees the whole system, of life, death, and reincarnation, as twisted, and cruel.
    She started seeing it this way back at the end of Wrath, when she suicides after taking out Arthas.
    She finds herself, not ending, but in some horrific torture prison.
    Then some Val'kyr, who we later learn are Mawsworn Valkyr, formerly Helsworn ones, offer her a way out, they will take her place and protect her. In return she will work to free those trapped there.
    Her work to get more forsaken, and her efforts from then, to the start of Legion, they were all to avoid going back there.
    At the end of Mists, she even tries to get her sister to come live with her, but that backfires, and she feels so alone.
    So she is alone, in pain, without hope, and afraid.
    Fast forward to the start of Legion, and we see The Jailer's first bigger steps.
    He has his minion, Mueh'zala, to mess with Vol'jin's mind, and trick him into thinking the Loa, as a whole, want Synvanas in charge.
    This makes the Banshee queen more along, and burdened with more responsibilities.
    This means she is stuck with finding a way to win a war with the Legion, and somehow survive it.
    Enter Helya.
    Helya makes a bargain with Sylvanas, a bargain which would give Sylvanas the ability to create an unstoppable force to fight the Legion with.
    And she asks a favor in return.
    We now know that favor was to help out her 'friend' who was 'wrongfully' imprisoned (The Jailer)
    Since then she met the Jailer, and saw someone else in a horrific prison, like the one Arthas put her in.
    So she saw someone who seemed, based on what she was shown, to be falsely imprisoned, persecuted, and vilified. Just like she experienced herself since her death.
    Then said kindred spirit talks about tearing down the unjust system hat causes such horror to be allowed.
    In short, she was manipulated, and tricked by someone who spent years grooming her to be a perfect victims for his abuse.

    And like the wife of an abusive husband, she kept making mental excuses as to why he 'was really a good guy' and 'does truly care about me'.

    We see this exact scenario play out millions of times in thew real world. yet you don't understand it?

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Kremlin KOA View Post
    Her motivation? She has been very upfront, and clear, about it from the start of the Expac.
    She sees the whole system, of life, death, and reincarnation, as twisted, and cruel.
    She started seeing it this way back at the end of Wrath, when she suicides after taking out Arthas.
    She finds herself, not ending, but in some horrific torture prison.
    Then some Val'kyr, who we later learn are Mawsworn Valkyr, formerly Helsworn ones, offer her a way out, they will take her place and protect her. In return she will work to free those trapped there.
    Her work to get more forsaken, and her efforts from then, to the start of Legion, they were all to avoid going back there.
    At the end of Mists, she even tries to get her sister to come live with her, but that backfires, and she feels so alone.
    So she is alone, in pain, without hope, and afraid.
    Fast forward to the start of Legion, and we see The Jailer's first bigger steps.
    He has his minion, Mueh'zala, to mess with Vol'jin's mind, and trick him into thinking the Loa, as a whole, want Synvanas in charge.
    This makes the Banshee queen more along, and burdened with more responsibilities.
    This means she is stuck with finding a way to win a war with the Legion, and somehow survive it.
    Enter Helya.
    Helya makes a bargain with Sylvanas, a bargain which would give Sylvanas the ability to create an unstoppable force to fight the Legion with.
    And she asks a favor in return.
    We now know that favor was to help out her 'friend' who was 'wrongfully' imprisoned (The Jailer)
    Since then she met the Jailer, and saw someone else in a horrific prison, like the one Arthas put her in.
    So she saw someone who seemed, based on what she was shown, to be falsely imprisoned, persecuted, and vilified. Just like she experienced herself since her death.
    Then said kindred spirit talks about tearing down the unjust system hat causes such horror to be allowed.
    In short, she was manipulated, and tricked by someone who spent years grooming her to be a perfect victims for his abuse.

    And like the wife of an abusive husband, she kept making mental excuses as to why he 'was really a good guy' and 'does truly care about me'.

    We see this exact scenario play out millions of times in thew real world. yet you don't understand it?
    This is a great explanation. This is really good. You should be writing for Blizzard. You understand this better than they do I think.

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