Page 13 of 15 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
LastLast
  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Oh I dont give a shkt what you do or don't do. As far as I'm concerned they could make raiding entirely isolated from the rest of the game and i wouldnt care. What bothers is me is the expectation that the rest of the game is constantly balanced around raiding and more specifically the desire to simple raid log. And yes I didn't engage with a single thing you said because its garbage.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh okay sick so you also don't evidently have a clue about history either let alone what motivated people.
    Didn't you go on a whole rant once about how rewards are content and its the only thing that drives you to do anything? I assume there are at least some players like you and that is why wod has such a bad rap. They took away the only thing you play for. A sense of accomplishment through repetitive actions.

  2. #242
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    18,330
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Didn't you go on a whole rant once about how rewards are content and its the only thing that drives you to do anything? I assume there are at least some players like you and that is why wod has such a bad rap. They took away the only thing you play for. A sense of accomplishment through repetitive actions.
    Rewards are indeed content and the arguments presented in that particular thread were unconvincing. People were literally arguing content is only something you do and not something you consume. Art, music, story all not content so some dumb arbitrary point could be made.

    WoD was bad because it let you raid log and the rest of the game was essentially worthless. The response to this was AP, a 180 degree change. Ipso facto.

    I'm convinced whats best for the game is for you to feel forced. And the more forced the better because it just means the game offers more for other people. If theirs a work around I'd be all for it but I'm dubious of that to be honest since all the proposed ones involve fucking with other peoples rewards so you don't feel put out. I'd rather they just isolate raids to not include power because that's really what your asking for. Daddy developer save me from myself.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-07-11 at 10:28 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I mean an ever growing cash shop and rehashing old games can't last forever. If you want to play the business angle we honestly don't have numbers on how wow is doing subscriber wise and whales are not a renewable resource if the game isn't being perceived as doing well. It is why there is a sense FF has blown a weebo sized hole in the hull of blizz.
    "An ever growing cash shop" makes it sound as though their cash shop is on the level of GW2.

    It is not. A new mount every 6 months doesn't do jack shit to keep MAUs, the main metric, stable or growing.
    And I am talking specifically about WoW-related reports, not Blizzard's other games, but the specific WoW points.

    That "weebo size hole" in the hull of Blizz will be up for scrutiny once the quarterly comes around. That, and a lot of it comes from idiots taking 3rd party "numbers" (that they don't have in any shape or form) at face value. No different from any other point since Legion where people pretended that the game's performing worse than it actually is, in other words.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Rewards are indeed content and the arguments presented in that particular thread were unconvincing. People were literally arguing content is only something you do and not something you consume. Art, music, story all not content so some dumb arbitrary point could be made.

    WoD was bad because it let you raid log and the rest of the game was essentially worthless. The response to this was AP, a 180 degree change. Ipso facto.

    I'm convinced whats best for the game is for you to feel forced. And the more forced the better because it just means the game offers more for other people. If theirs a work around I'd be all for it but I'm dubious of that to be honest since all the proposed ones involve fucking with other peoples rewards so you don't feel put out. I'd rather they just isolate raids to not include power.
    Yep, WoD was the proof of how they can drive players away through boredom and the raid-or-die mentality in design.

    Legion? BfA? SL? Not so much. They did drive me away through burnout, but not boredom.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Rewards are indeed content and the arguments presented in that particular thread were unconvincing. People were literally arguing content is only something you do and not something you consume. Art, music, story all not content so some dumb arbitrary point could be made.

    WoD was bad because it let you raid log and the rest of the game was essentially worthless. The response to this was AP, a 180 degree change. Ipso facto.

    I'm convinced whats best for the game is for you to feel forced. And the more forced the better because it just means the game offers more for other people. If theirs a work around I'd be all for it but I'm dubious of that to be honest since all the proposed ones involve fucking with other peoples rewards so you don't feel put out. I'd rather they just isolate raids to not include power.
    I think that is also why you are seeing so many of wow's competitors slowly coming into the light. If another company can get down isntanced content as well as wow (FF big weakness atm) It is going to be devastating for them.

    Most people don't want to do chores especially in entertainment. They want to do what they enjoy. Eventually this mindset of "we can just force them to" will end up with them slowly getting chipped away at. I was willing to clear out shadowbringers in a effort to find solid group content... for people who enjoy world content and story FF is already ending their time in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    "An ever growing cash shop" makes it sound as though their cash shop is on the level of GW2.

    It is not. A new mount every 6 months doesn't do jack shit to keep MAUs, the main metric, stable or growing.
    And I am talking specifically about WoW-related reports, not Blizzard's other games, but the specific WoW points.

    That "weebo size hole" in the hull of Blizz will be up for scrutiny once the quarterly comes around. That, and a lot of it comes from idiots taking 3rd party "numbers" (that they don't have in any shape or form) at face value. No different from any other point since Legion where people pretended that the game's performing worse than it actually is, in other words.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yep, WoD was the proof of how they can drive players away through boredom.

    Legion? BfA? SL? Not so much. They did drive me away through burnout, but not boredom.
    Trying to compare a cash shop for a sub game with a cash shop in a buy once and your done is very disingenuous. I don't want to argue numbers neither of us have but I can't see annoying people as a positive plan for a business centered around entertainment....

  5. #245
    My wife left me for Torghast


  6. #246
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    18,330
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think that is also why you are seeing so many of wow's competitors slowly coming into the light. If another company can get down isntanced content as well as wow (FF big weakness atm) It is going to be devastating for them.

    Most people don't want to do chores especially in entertainment. They want to do what they enjoy. Eventually this mindset of "we can just force them to" will end up with them slowly getting chipped away at. I was willing to clear out shadowbringers in a effort to find solid group content... for people who enjoy world content and story FF is already ending their time in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Trying to compare a cash shop for a sub game with a cash shop in a buy once and your done is very disingenuous. I don't want to argue numbers neither of us have but I can't see annoying people as a positive plan for a business centered around entertainment....
    My understanding of FF, which is evidently wows biggest competition is that is basically offers the best gear or near to the best gear outside of the raid.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #247
    why do we hate Torghast? why? ...dude because its sucks, that's why
    Its pretty self explanatory.
    One THE worst features ever added to WoW in its lifetime and I have been here since the beginning
    ...it just plain stinks

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    My understanding of FF, which is evidently wows biggest competition is that is basically offers the best gear or near to the best gear outside of the raid.
    It kind of does? That doesn't really matter though its just gear. The big draw is its world content and its lack of bullshit systems like wow has. It just doesn't offer challenging enough content for the wow mythic crowd and the game moves a lot slower then wow in general.

  9. #249
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    phasing...
    Posts
    23,038
    As you progress higher it doesn't get more "difficult" by merit of the complexity of encounters you face, it gets more "difficult" by just dumping more and more enemies on you that melee you for a higher and higher percentage of your total health until they end up one-shotting you if you haven't scaled the bejeezus out of your health.

    The variable layouts aren't particularly interesting or meaningful and don't really change what you're doing, seeing as each corridor is populated by roughly the same six to eight or so enemy types.


    But that's the case with pretty much all procedural-generated content in really any game. Torghast doesn't really "anger" me because... frankly, it's more or less exactly what I expected it to be.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  10. #250
    Warchief Rusken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,088
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    So I ask: Why do people hate Torghast? In Solo mode it is a very nice way to break the game and reach insane stats, in group mode in 9.1 it's actually engaging content, as long as voice coms are in the picture. It's quite literally an amalgamation of everything WoW has to offer - mob farming, resource gathering, a degree of exploration, bossfights and ability upgrades. In 1 activity. So why do people hate it so much?

    Thank you for your time in reading thus far.
    In Alpha and Beta testing it was shaping up to be the greatest thing WoW had ever seen. By the time the game actually launched it had devolved into a mandatory chore that some classes were literally incapable of soloing because their Anima Powers were just pure trash while some others (specifically Tanks) were able to mindlessly walk through it being an invincible god.

    Then instead of making new interesting, strong powers for the classes struggling they just fucking nerfed the whole thing by like 70% and made it absolutely nothing but a boring, mandatory chore that everyone has to do.

    I enjoyed it a lot at first, I mained a Prot Pally while I played SL and had as much fun as you describe stacking powers to have infinite Wings and Seraphim with no CD's flinging shields all over the place exploding huge packs of mobs, but after a few months of that the novelty wore off and it became mundane especially if I didn't get the right powers.

    If it was more dynamic, with more room layouts and more enemy variants, was back at its launch difficulty level at least, and offered something other than a mandatory currency and some shitty cosmetics it would be great. I haven't played since February so I'm not sure if they've added much in terms of new rooms, enemies etc. But I do know the new scoring system for 9.1 seems awful for anyone who isn't playing a class with insane power combos.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    In Alpha and Beta testing it was shaping up to be the greatest thing WoW had ever seen. By the time the game actually launched it had devolved into a mandatory chore that some classes were literally incapable of soloing because their Anima Powers were just pure trash while some others (specifically Tanks) were able to mindlessly walk through it being an invincible god.

    Then instead of making new interesting, strong powers for the classes struggling they just fucking nerfed the whole thing by like 70% and made it absolutely nothing but a boring, mandatory chore that everyone has to do.

    I enjoyed it a lot at first, I mained a Prot Pally while I played SL and had as much fun as you describe stacking powers to have infinite Wings and Seraphim with no CD's flinging shields all over the place exploding huge packs of mobs, but after a few months of that the novelty wore off and it became mundane especially if I didn't get the right powers.

    If it was more dynamic, with more room layouts and more enemy variants, was back at its launch difficulty level at least, and offered something other than a mandatory currency and some shitty cosmetics it would be great. I haven't played since February so I'm not sure if they've added much in terms of new rooms, enemies etc. But I do know the new scoring system for 9.1 seems awful for anyone who isn't playing a class with insane power combos.
    Alpha torghast could of gone down as mage tower 2.0 if blizzard wasn't so enthralled with content everyone had to clear. They blundered and butchered it so utterly I would rather they never try again at this point.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think that is also why you are seeing so many of wow's competitors slowly coming into the light. If another company can get down isntanced content as well as wow (FF big weakness atm) It is going to be devastating for them.

    Most people don't want to do chores especially in entertainment. They want to do what they enjoy. Eventually this mindset of "we can just force them to" will end up with them slowly getting chipped away at. I was willing to clear out shadowbringers in a effort to find solid group content... for people who enjoy world content and story FF is already ending their time in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Trying to compare a cash shop for a sub game with a cash shop in a buy once and your done is very disingenuous. I don't want to argue numbers neither of us have but I can't see annoying people as a positive plan for a business centered around entertainment....
    I am not comparing them, I was saying that you were making it sound as if they're comparable by claiming that it's "ever growing"... With a new pet and mount now and then, which won't keep someone playing if they don't want to. L2R. I've seen 2 store mounts pass by since I unsubbed, and guess what? It didn't convince me to sub and pay extra for them.

    You can believe whatever you want, it's been a successful business model since Legion. They came off BfA stronger than in a decade despite BfA being all about "annoying people". We don't have sub numbers, what we do have is official Quarterly reports and the latest one reported growth for the game.

    Not liking the game as it currently is shouldn't come with immediate disregard for facts. That sort of thinking is what makes people take 3rd party numbers at face value because they mesh with feelings rather than reality.

    The latest OFFICIAL report summarized: https://www.wowhead.com/news/activis...re-2000-322172

    The store earns money, it can and does by no means carry the game the way subs do in terms of steady revenue, especially not with how rarely they add new stuff and how badly diversified it is, which is that way thanks to the sub existing in the first place.

    That's all I've got to say on the matter, I ain't in the business of schooling people on how not to fall for conspiracy theories and "alternative facts".
    Last edited by SensationalBanana; 2021-07-11 at 11:57 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    I am not comparing them, I was saying that you were making it sound as if they're comparable by claiming that it's "ever growing"... With a new pet and mount now and then, which won't keep someone playing if they don't want to. L2R. I've seen 2 store mounts pass by since I unsubbed, and guess what? It didn't convince me to sub and pay extra for them.

    You can believe whatever you want, it's been a successful business model since Legion. They came off BfA stronger than in a decade despite BfA being all about "annoying people". We don't have sub numbers, what we do have is official Quarterly reports and the latest one reported growth for the game.

    Not liking the game as it currently is shouldn't come with immediate disregard for facts. That sort of thinking is what makes people take 3rd party numbers at face value because they mesh with feelings rather than reality.

    That's all I've got to say on the matter, I ain't in the business of schooling people on how not to fall for conspiracy theories and "alternative facts".
    It isn't a disregard for facts...they themselves have said the cash shop has been propping up revenue. I said I don't see that as sustainable and well I still don't. Even with carrying exploding eventually it will hit critical mass and collapse. To clarify by expanding I was referencing the growing number of things costing money. Not just mounts but pets, transmog, and toys. Never mind the increasing number of spam emails I get for their sales.

    The titan hasn't been felled by any means but for the first time its staggering and slowing.

  14. #254
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    18,330
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It kind of does? That doesn't really matter though its just gear. The big draw is its world content and its lack of bullshit systems like wow has. It just doesn't offer challenging enough content for the wow mythic crowd and the game moves a lot slower then wow in general.
    So in other words it has a source of character progression outside the raid (gear) that the raid is theoretically balanced around and you don't feel compelled to pursue that content? why are wows non raid power advancement systems chores but not ff?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So in other words it has a source of character progression outside the raid (gear) that the raid is theoretically balanced around and you don't feel compelled to pursue that content? why are wows non raid power advancement systems chores but not ff?
    The answer is simple it all ties into one another naturally. The problem with wow is it insists you repeat mindless content again and again for upgrades even at the highest level. In FF you just move on unless you want the cosmetics. It goes so far as to scale down your gear in its hardest modes to preserve the challenge of past bosses. The problem I have with wow is rather then naturally letting players progress they insist on dragging them into pointless chores.

  16. #256
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    The Other Side.
    Posts
    2,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    The answer is simple it all ties into one another naturally. The problem with wow is it insists you repeat mindless content again and again for upgrades even at the highest level. In FF you just move on unless you want the cosmetics. It goes so far as to scale down your gear in its hardest modes to preserve the challenge of past bosses. The problem I have with wow is rather then naturally letting players progress they insist on dragging them into pointless chores.
    Um... but tomestones give you good gear, which you kind of have to go through really dull dungeons each day to get. O_o

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Care to reply with arguments, such as the ones I laid out above? I clearly stated why and how I find Torghast to be a fun activity. It would be cool if you could do the same, so we can get a discussion going. That is what a forum is used for, since the times of the Ancient Romans (where the word comes from actually) when they thought up the concept.
    From my experience with it, it's fun the first handful of times you do it progressing solo; then you find out you can do it with a group, handful of multiplayer play-throughs; then that's it, Torghast is finished, you won torghast. It's not a game mode that is terribly engaging; the rewards aren't too interesting and even if it was more challenging; the incentive just isn't there. Challenge modes felt way better in terms of accomplishment.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    What the title says. I main Guardian druid, which is a tanking spec. I find Torghast to be a lot of fun, due to the fact you can literally break the game. While doing my Endless Corridor runs, I reached a point where I had 85+ anima powers, 70% Versatility, 60% haste, 90% Mastery and 70% crit.

    Torghast quite literally gives us the ability to BREAK THE GAME! I reached a boss with 6 million HP and downed it in 35 seconds. The amount of power my bear had at that point was batshit crazy.

    9.1 made Torghast even better. I got some guildies (2 main DPSers from the raid team + a member's alt that he will reroll to in 9.1 as his main) so we can do Layer 9, when it was released. We spent THREE hours in Torghast and we didn't even realise how the time passed. We were all on discord, discussing, choosing Anima powers that had good synergy with what the rest of us had picked, and our 4th member who was on his alt was basicaly the group's "errand boy". As in, we'd enter a room, I would round up everything in it, mage and rogue mains would assist me in mowing them down and the hunter alt was running around opening chests, breaking jars, freeing souls and talking to quest NPC's. We really had a blast, it was good fun.

    So I ask: Why do people hate Torghast? In Solo mode it is a very nice way to break the game and reach insane stats, in group mode in 9.1 it's actually engaging content, as long as voice coms are in the picture. It's quite literally an amalgamation of everything WoW has to offer - mob farming, resource gathering, a degree of exploration, bossfights and ability upgrades. In 1 activity. So why do people hate it so much?

    Thank you for your time in reading thus far.
    Go into an older raid and you can beat bosses with more health....and faster....

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Um... but tomestones give you good gear, which you kind of have to go through really dull dungeons each day to get. O_o
    They drop from pretty much anything end game I am not sure I understand the point you think your making.

  20. #260
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    The Other Side.
    Posts
    2,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    They drop from pretty much anything end game I am not sure I understand the point you think your making.
    The current-tier tomes don't drop from everywhere. The only way to get those is through roulettes, which means you're running what people here call "boring content" every day.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •