Page 13 of 24 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
23
... LastLast
  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    The image of Arthas and Sylvanas casually sassing one another would be nonsense if not for the fact we did the same thing with Maiev and Illidan.
    At last you truly see. Imagine the quips. Imagine the excitement of seeing Arthas in an HD model telling you to collect 12 First One Droppings to up your rep.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    I meant it more in the context that, if Galen Marek chooses to kill Vader everyone he cares about dies, he gets scorched and turned into a semi-machine like Vader was enslaved to the Emperor's whims. And Vader's redemption, in the canonical timeline is on a more personal level, where he never did anything to redeem himself, in the eyes of the galaxy at large.

    And while it's true that she can fit that archetype I'm inclined to believe that it'd be a waste to axe her, in the long run. As a storyarc i find it more interesting, when characters can't just take the "noble suicide" option and have to work for it. For one it leaves room for further character development and it also leaves more room for interesting options down the line like saving Aleria from the Void, whenever that storyarc rolls around. I agree she is definately going to be out of the spotlight for some time after the xpac concludes regardless of the fine details.


    Not to mention the characters present are Thrall, whose entire character is basically based on rehabilitation, Bolvar, who probably has the best idea what kind of difference the soul can make and Jaina, who has become a bit more wholesome after her BfA arc and likely could be talked down, by the other two, with the additional incentive of Sylvanas having more insight into the Jailer's inner workings. (That said i do find it amusing Vereesa knew the Sylvanas we had was basically the evil twin, for decades and told literally noone, in all that time.)
    And you dont think that Alliance will riot outright and throw Anduin out because he spared a certified genocidal maniac?

    And not to mention that Sylvanas now without Jailer's protection and within Tyrande's reach.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Fuck no. FUCK NO. It's precisely because he is what is she should have NEVER trusted him. It doesn't make sense for her to put her blind trust in a powerful, seemingly malevolent entity. And he didn't even fucking "trick" her. He was pretty fucking honest with his intentions, as far as literal Satans go. He didn't mind control her, he didn't blackmail her, he just spun a tale and Sylvanas just went with it, no questions asked. They won't ever show how that deal went about because they literally can't, there's just no way of portraying something like that without it turning into a fullblown parody. And if other NPCs could tell at first glance that Jailer is up to no good, why couldn't Sylvanas? She's a fucking asshole, it takes one to know one. Because she's a grade A cunt, she should've seen through the Jailer right away. It's just completely wrong for her not to. She didn't even consider the possibily? Like, just in case, worst case scenario? It's just fucking immpossible, plain and simple.

    Just fucking think about it. Just think about it. It's not some petty crime, we're talking about remaking the fucking reality here. The sheer fucking magnitude of that endeavour. The sheer fucking scale of that shit. You don't go into something like that without spending at least 5 minutes of some careful consideration. You don't just go about remaking the fucking cosmos without some planning, you don't do that if you're not pretty fucking convinced in your ideals. Few fucking years has Sylvanas been serving.. oh pardon, working with the Jailer. Few years to think, to asses the risks and think things through. Countless instances of Arthas-like behaviour, throwing the S word around, and nope. It all was forgotten. Blizz act like she's traumatised and the sheer mention of the word "serve" reawakens her trauma when they had her throw that word around like it means nothing. It doesn't work that way. You can't have cake and eat it too.

    Don't try to justify it. No matter how you try to spin it, it's bad. Bad. BAD! Bad and fucked three ways from sunday.


    Oh man, I have much more to say, but I won't. It's not worth it. I owe it to myself to just move on as soon as it's possible.
    Because she is fucken stupid, gullible and has worst character judgement abilities then a ten year old... Truly a "mirror" of her fans.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-07-08 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  3. #243
    So, Sylvanas is either a gullible idiot or a sockpuppet. Honest to god, I don't know which is worse.

    We had a long line of Horde leaders whose excuse for everything was "Demons made me do it" followed by "Daddy didn't love me enough made me do it" to now going back to the "Devil made me do it".
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And you dont think that Alliance will riot outright and throw Anduin out because he spared a certified genocidal maniac?

    And not to mention that Sylvanas now without Jailer's protection and within Tyrande's reach.
    Hope you're ready fam. The absolute forgiveness is coming.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Hope you're ready fam. The absolute forgiveness is coming.
    Oh i know it will. But this time it will be just out of the realm of "not even closely believable" and in the realm of "fuck this shit we're out". WoW subscribers exodus will continue and only get worse.

    If they want the game to be their own fanfiction then sure, but they will be only ones playing it.

  6. #246
    Do we actually know her other half is some good, innocent soul?

    When Uther got split in half one side was just grumpier than the other about what happened, and this could have easily been because he was given a way to get revenge as opposed to being rendered effectively useless. He joined the forsworn because honestly the Kyrians are a pretty sinister lot. And then when he learned the Forsworn were bad he ditched them anyway.

    Both Uther halves were effectively the same person, just slightly different due to their experiences after being severed.

    So who's to say Sylv's other half isn't as bad if not worse?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Likely so will Arthas and the two will quip at each other in 9.2 while handing out daily quests.
    This will be Broken Shore/Cathedral of Eternal Night all over again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Do we actually know her other half is some good, innocent soul?

    When Uther got split in half one side was just grumpier than the other about what happened, and this could have easily been because he was given a way to get revenge as opposed to being rendered effectively useless. He joined the forsworn because honestly the Kyrians are a pretty sinister lot. And then when he learned the Forsworn were bad he ditched them anyway.

    Both Uther halves were effectively the same person, just slightly different due to their experiences after being severed.

    So who's to say Sylv's other half isn't as bad if not worse?
    The fact that she immediately started caring about the world likely means that it was the good part of her soul. Also Christie Golden liked a tweet that speculated about the Jailer giving Sylvanas her soul back so she could feel bad about the things she had done.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-07-08 at 02:18 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #248
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    9,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They literally went the kerrigan route with her, step by step. So I won't be surprised if Sylvanas replaces Mr proper at the end of this all
    I can already smell it, there must always be... A Jailor.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Remember Illidan and how the Lightforged just meekly went along with him after he lasered their godhead.
    Oh fuck I forgot that. I loved the part where Illidan killed the Naaru. But then...nothing. No consequences, no vendetta. No tensions within the Alliance. Just a pretty cinematic.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Oh fuck I forgot that. I loved the part where Illidan killed the Naaru. But then...nothing. No consequences, no vendetta. No tensions within the Alliance. Just a pretty cinematic.
    Illidan's aura of smugness protects him from all consequences of his actions.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Hope you're ready fam. The absolute forgiveness is coming.
    Aye.

    Sylvanas Windrunner Regent of Stormwind and High Regent of the Alliance until we can "rescue" Anduin. Coming soon to WoW near you.

    And everyone is going to be OK with that. Lul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Whether or not she apologizes, she will be redeemed because the writers are biased towards her.

    I mean at this point I can see them writing the other characters forgetting the past and being sympathetic towards her simply due to the writers lacking any consistent characterization, exactly the way they handled Tyrande's Night Warrior arc and literally going nowhere with it. At this point, Tyrande completely forgiving Sylvanas can and will be a thing because that's the direction the story is going.

    Objectively speaking, we know the writers are biased, so expecting any moderate outcome is foolish.
    All we have to do is look at Grom hellscream, legion or not that monster killed untold numbers. Then he is treated as a hero at the end of WoD, it disgusts me.

  13. #253
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Khadgars' Tower
    Posts
    881
    Sylvanas is a cash cow, wherever they go with the story telling -that will be the motive. 'What will make more people like Sylvanas and buy statues and bobble heads?'

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    If that same someone caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents - mental health issues or not - I would want them to be given the death sentence.

    Being mentally ill does not pardon you from committing crimes on that kind of scale.
    Well tbf she did not do that alone. It is like saying Hitler was alone responsible for the holocaust.

    The complete horde leadership was nearly completly in favour of everything she has done. There was only a resistance because of Suarfang.

    But they get to be absolved?

    Being mentally ill is not quite right in this case though as the effect of having your sould ripped apart is not quite something we have IRL.
    It could basically be mindcontroll or you could be a completly different person.
    There are tons of books who talk about beings who completly lost theior moral compas and only work for one goal who would have never done this if hteir soul was whole.

    Sylvanns was a victim as much as a perpetrator. IMHO you have t consider this.

    ALSO: think this whole situation is one of the most intersting things that happend in wow in a decade. This actually is hard to quantify as black and white. Good or evil. She did horrible things. But was she her herself? Are you the same person if half of you is missing?
    Everybody jumps in defence of arthas who was basically in the same situation but sylvanas does not deserve the same?

  15. #255
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    35,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Do we actually know her other half is some good, innocent soul?

    So who's to say Sylv's other half isn't as bad if not worse?
    The story in Folk and Fairy Tales of Azeroth strongly implies that the sundered part of Sylvanas' soul, the one that the Jailer seems to have restored to her, is an innocent and more or less "good" aspect of her selfdom that she's been missing since her conversion into a Banshee at Arthas' hand via Frostmourne. This is likely reflective of the sense that while most Forsaken are darkened by their current state and the traumas that created them, they have an essential humanity that still clings to them, a quality that Sylvanas has always seemed to lack.

    The restoration of this portion of Sylvanas' soul makes her neither good nor innocent, but it may give her cognizance of just how far she's allowed herself to fall, and the rank hypocrisy of willingly embracing the same power that ground her kingdom and people into dust. Arguably, this could be a punishment far worse than even death, but that depends on whether the narrative opts to go that route as opposed to complete redemption.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Oh fuck I forgot that. I loved the part where Illidan killed the Naaru. But then...nothing. No consequences, no vendetta. No tensions within the Alliance. Just a pretty cinematic.
    Ouside of the Draenai and the lightforged the Alliance doesn't give a fuck about the Naaru. LF were not officially Alliance then, Draenai were wise enough to see, that the Naaru's vision isn't always right. Turalyion was pretty mad and distrusted Illidan. But in the end Illidan is now sealed away after he achieved his (and the Alliance's) goal. So what vendetta do you want?

  17. #257
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    So, Sylvanas is either a gullible idiot or a sockpuppet. Honest to god, I don't know which is worse.

    We had a long line of Horde leaders whose excuse for everything was "Demons made me do it" followed by "Daddy didn't love me enough made me do it" to now going back to the "Devil made me do it".
    She's definitely not a sock puppet, since no one was explicitly controlling her. She's actually extremely resilient against being controlled. She's the first forsaken to break free of the Lich King's control, and even the Jailer had to resort to lies and half-truths to win her over, whereas he could directly take control over the likes of Anduin and Bolvar(temporarily).

    Sylvanas is not a gullible idiot, either. She's simply gullible, just like everyone else. She had personally witnessed that after death, a forsaken is unfairly condemned to Maw without a trial (she got there after jumping off of ICC). She then met or came to know of the Jailer, who was also chained and trapped there and claimed to have been unfairly condemned there. It was thus natural for her to believe the Jailer's version of the story, that there's some cosmic tyranny going on which she could help overthrow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The restoration of this portion of Sylvanas' soul makes her neither good nor innocent, but it may give her cognizance of just how far she's allowed herself to fall, and the rank hypocrisy of willingly embracing the same power that ground her kingdom and people into dust. Arguably, this could be a punishment far worse than even death, but that depends on whether the narrative opts to go that route as opposed to complete redemption.
    She "allowed herself to fall" only in the sense that as the Ranger-General she lost her fight against Arthas. The events after that, caused by the effects of losing her soul against her will, are not her(= the restored Sylvanas) fault.

    Sure, with her soul restored, she will probably initially feel awful about the memories she has from her time as undead -- like any good person would. But eventually she should be able to accept that she(= the restored Sylvanas) is not to be blamed for that; this allows her to love herself again and move on with her life.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    Well, that's just how things are in fiction in which the concept of soul is real. Losing one's soul profoundly changes one's personality. If one's soul is removed against one's will, then that person is not to be blamed for the decisions and actions he/she made due to not having a soul.

    When she got her soul back her personality transformed back to someone who would (likely) not nuke a city full of civilians. The soulful Sylvanas is not culpable for the actions made by the soulless Sylvanas.
    So we are making a mistake.
    Because we are taking a fantasy concept based on real logic and we should use fantasy logic.

    And we still keep the same all that of the soul is like a free pass to do whatever you want.
    I kill an entire orphanage and then corrupt myself with Nzoth. ready I'm not the same as before free pass.

  19. #259
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    35,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    Sure, with her soul restored, she will probably initially feel awful about the memories she has from her time as undead -- like any good person would. But eventually she should be able to accept that she(= the restored Sylvanas) is not to be blamed for that; this allows her to love herself again and move on with her life.
    That's generally not how these things tend to work, especially not when a person is confronted with horrific and terrible deeds done by their own hand, even when they're not completely in charge of their own faculties. It's difficult to assess because having a portion of your soul missing and then restored has no real-world analogues we can easily point to, but it's equally possible Sylvanas feels horrified and disgusted with herself in a long-term sense, underscoring no essential difference between who she was prior to her restoration and who she may be afterwards. Basically saying "I still did it, even if it wasn't fully myself, I'm still responsible." I wouldn't disagree with her on that stance, either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #260

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •