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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    The largest reason for prison is deterrence. Discourage people from committing crimes in the first place.

    That said, yeah... imagine someone gave you bath salts without you knowing and you wake up and discover that you ate a bunch of faces. How culpable are you really?
    That's a weird point in a game where you're constantly asked to kill swathes of corrupted/haunted/tortured npc's though. Why would Sylvanas be an exception to all the mobs we slaughtered?

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The present story gives neither any resolution.
    True. Even if Sylvanas dies now (which many originally wanted to see) it will satisfy absolutely no one since they've simply turned her into a different character. The moment we saw that tortured look on her face in that cursed cinematic, the character of the Banshee Queen was effectively gone forever and killing another character can't really be a resolution to the original character's arc.

    That's why she's already "redeemed".
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-07-09 at 09:15 AM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Its problem isn't as a character beat in the microcosm of what they've made. The basic human psychology of Sylvanas committing every crime under the sun for years and ruining every relationship she's had from the personal ones to that with her people only for it to have always been for nothing would drive anyone into depression.
    Just Blizzard's way of conveying how 'strong' she is. Look at all the people she fucked, everyone hates her, but she keeps pushing through regardless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    True. Even if Sylvanas dies now (which many originally wanted to see) it will satisfy absolutely no one since they've simply turned her into a different character. The moment we saw that tortured look on her face in that cursed cinematic, the character of the Banshee Queen was effectively gone forever and killing another character can't really be a resolution to the original character's arc.
    "My pain is constant and sharp, and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape. But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis; my punishment continues to elude me, and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    People change man. I am not defending the genocide she committed, I am just saying that she could have thought along the line that all of those who died would be reborn in at least an enhanced state and all would be well in the end.
    She could at least try and find out herself if that were true. Aside from that it's utterly narcissistic to make that choice on behalf of everyone; even if this was a positive thing, it would still be a gambling with everyone's fate.

    It's like that Naaru trying to light-rape Illidan except he was just a single individual.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    "My pain is constant and sharp, and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape. But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis; my punishment continues to elude me, and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself."
    Pretty much. The only reason why you could possibly get some sort of satisfaction from Sylvanas getting killed off now is because you either have an unhealthy obsession with her or because you want to spite Blizzard. Either way you're not going to get what you want.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Just Blizzard's way of conveying how 'strong' she is. Look at all the people she fucked, everyone hates her, but she keeps pushing through regardless.
    The most logical and interesting route to go for going forward, which they definitely won't do is for her to be unable to keep pushing through. Anyone who's failed so totally at their life's work and now also has to cope with ruining her own life and everyone else's for nothing should be a neurotic wreck. So put another way, her most natural character evolution is BFA Saurfang.

    @Nerovar

    She's redeemed because she's inhabits the same story that had Uther be lectured about how he shouldn't really be mad at Arthas and should've showed him more compassion. The framework of the story does not allow for any other conclusion but for her to get an out of jail free card. Hypothetically her having her sense of empathy reinforced after finding out she wasted the last 10 years of her life and nearly doomed everyone else could still be a follow-up on the same character we've had up to now. It won't though, for the same reason Jaina coming to terms with herself in BFA and being accepted by her kingdom was as poor as it was, namely that the story can't allow for natural human reaction because that would undermine the message. Jaina could develop and change as a character as she accepts the view that her father was right and her people reaccept her on the basis of this conclusion - it'd be 'bad' but it would logically follow from who these people are, the situation they're in and the events that happen around them. Sylvanas will be the same, except multiplied, much like her boss fight had the same problem as Jaina's, but worse.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #286
    Stood in the Fire Sezerek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    to get an out of jail free card.
    more like out of Jailer free card.

    I'll see myself out

  7. #287
    The one thing that seems interesting to me is the fact that they made a deal and he sticked to it. He could easily just ignore her or destroy her with one hit.

  8. #288
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    Varx i really cant belive how you are patient on replying those who "WILL THE STORY IS GARBAGE AND THAT CHARACTER IS SHIT " , they cant speak with logic and reason now they are on toxic mode

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Aye.

    Sylvanas Windrunner Regent of Stormwind and High Regent of the Alliance until we can "rescue" Anduin. Coming soon to WoW near you.

    And everyone is going to be OK with that. Lul.
    Curious, why do you think that? Blizzard are getting constant flack for their story decisions...and I see no reason why that wouldn't get as much flack or more than other decisions when it comes to story.

    I mean, the big thing about this forum is that almost everything sucks, so the idea that "everyone would be OK with that" just seems very out of place.

  10. #290
    Sylvanas getting the victim treatment after they retconned "soul splitting frostmorune" into the game is something i would expect from this team

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Curious, why do you think that? Blizzard are getting constant flack for their story decisions...and I see no reason why that wouldn't get as much flack or more than other decisions when it comes to story.

    I mean, the big thing about this forum is that almost everything sucks, so the idea that "everyone would be OK with that" just seems very out of place.
    He meant every NPC.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    He meant every NPC.
    ah yeah, makes more sense, my bad.

    Though I doubt that'll be the case.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    But why feel this way if you know that she was not herself fully. Again, imagine some evil person deliberately withheld psych meds to an individual with mental health issues and that same individual severely hurts someone because of that.

    Try to be objective. What is the level of culpability? Cuz it sure as hell isn't the same as a mentally sane person doing the same act willingly.

    Hell we're not even dealing with mental issues in this scenario with Sylv but instead forced undeath that sundered the "good" portion of her soul and hidden from her.
    I agree with you, the situation opens many potential avenues. I for one am not in favor of punishing someone who was obviously manipulated and to an extent mind controlled through removing the "good" part of her soul. It's really simple, when someone undercuts me in traffic one side of me just wants to ram that person, kick him/her out of the car and gouge his/her eyes out, but my good part prevents me from doing that.

    At the same time, knowing a person has it inside her to do the things Sylvanas did, is very risky to leave unpunished, but what I think is that we will (or should) learn the real motives for burning teldrassil and killing so many, and perhaps that will reveal something we don't know yet.

    Or, If Blizzard keeps on the trend of ridiculous writing, then probably Sylvanas just killed everyone for "reasons", and we will never get any justifications, so in that case perhaps punishment is in order... But I don't think she will be killed.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    It's not a simple redemption scenario.

    We're talking about someone who was lacking mental clarity as per the actions of a death god and now has her perspective fully restored.

    It's not like, "oh I did bad but now I regret it, let me make it up to you".

    It's more like "Holy shit what have I done??!?!?" after taking your psych medication.
    That's right, there is no redemption. The players had to sit through a decade's worth of Sylvanas indulging, relishing in her own sadistic cruelty and now it's all water under the bridge. It's as if there never was a person known as 'Sylvanas' all that remains is the fallout of her actions.

    And that's what Blizzard somehow thought would make for compelling storytelling. A character that was on motion control all this time and is now incapable of introspection, for it was not her that did all this.
    Last edited by Ivarr; 2021-07-09 at 11:02 AM.

  15. #295
    Just a reminder you have killed:
    Falric;
    Marwyn;
    Sapphiron (three times);
    Lana'thel;
    Baelgun Flamebeard;
    Drakuru; and;
    Dranosh

    All of these people have been confirmed to have been killed directly by frosmourne so that's not even counting any number of potential victims. There is absolutely nothing that makes sylvanas any more deserving of redemption than any of these characters (that I cannot stress enough, that you the player have killed) the only difference is she wasn't being mind-controlled when she committed her atrocities.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2021-07-09 at 11:19 AM.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  16. #296
    The great Sylv whitewashing begins. It was obvious that they were going to make Kerrigan out of her with that comic showing void terrified of her.

    As for her culpability, she's plenty culpable and I am sure she's going to get a very well deserved flak and punishment for all she committed. I really hope they won't do the usual nonsense of we're sworn mortal enemies patch x.1 and sudden 180 degrees besties x.2/3.

    I really hope she will become a shunned outcast that will have to claw her way out of the depths of misery over the course of 2-3 expansions just to even get to the point where Horde/Alliance leaders and notables will not be looking at her with utter disgust.

    She really needs to come around full circle like they did with Jaina over long period of time and heck Jaina's issues are nothing compared to all Sylv pulled out.

    If that supposedly good part of her soul (and I guess that part is where she serves as protector of her people like when she was Ranger-General) is back, I'm sure she herself will be shamed to the core and seek atonement through actual deeds - this needs time and I hope Blizz storytellers will make sure it will be real considerable time period, before they turn her into our great savior Kerrigan the Second.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  17. #297
    So does every other Forsaken need to be forgiven as well? Putress? Faranell? Belmont? Lillian? Do they also have imperfect souls like Sylvanas?

    The Forsaken get away with every despicable atrocity they committed since Classic, what a shock. Is Danuser's main a Forsaken or a Blood elf DK in your opinion?

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So does every other Forsaken need to be forgiven as well? Putress? Faranell? Belmont? Lillian? Do they also have imperfect souls like Sylvanas?

    The Forsaken get away with every despicable atrocity they committed since Classic, what a shock. Is Danuser's main a Forsaken or a Blood elf DK in your opinion?
    I don't think he even plays the game.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    #justiceforFestergut
    I mean yeah basically. What if Festergut was created from people who were all slain by Frostmourne, wouldn't he also have a good soul that was separated from him, doesn't he also deserve redemption?

    Such trash lore honestly, it basically forgives an entire race of genocidal murderers because "oh nooo the Jailer stole my good soul!!! I am not pure evil I swear!!!"

  20. #300
    Just remember, what ever guilt we assign to Sylvanas whilst under the sway of the Jailer, we will have to assign to Anduin whilst under the sway of the Jailer.

    Can't be having double standards now can we.

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

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