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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Subjective at best. You seen the housing in FF14? Check some highlight videos of the best ones, you can personalize the crap out if it. I'd say that has way more potential RP value than anything a 3rd faction would offer, considering we _right now_ have very little connection to our own factions in Shadowlands, with us literally being detached from Azeroth and the rest of the world where faction even matters. PVP doesn't even exist in Shadowlands, you're literally playing an anachronistic gameplay mode on Azeroth with zero connection to Shadowlands when you PVP.
    Unlike factions, you can't attach much story, PvE or PvP content to it. Other than some profession recipes, daily quests and grinds, it is utterly subsidiary.

    Anyways, my point is that gameplay reasons are more likely than lore reasons, and I use all the examples of lore inconsistancies to support my argument.

    If we talk about Class Skins, Blizzard would treat it the same way. Why POTM as a class skin and not its own class? Because class skin is easier to add than full new class, and they could dedicate resources to making a bunch of these playable while dedicating resources to a New Class that isn't already share themes/gameplay with 3 other existing classes.

    Blizzard doesn't have to be consistent on what gets to be a new class or a class skin, the same way they don't treat Dark Irons and Wildhammers equally. If Class skins existed, then they would only really follow the lore up to a certain extent enough to make a class concept playable while reusing gameplay. Just like Wildhammer being a Dwarf extension is just enough to consider the race as being playable, but very shittily represented by sharing all their Racials and gameplay of a Bronzebeard Dwarf. Any Class Skin would share a similar fate of not being a full new class and having to have compromises that share existing gameplay and some flexible lore shenaigans. And the reason why Class skins could exist is because Blizzard Devs are proven to be comfortable with recycling content and passing it off as new.
    Would they do it? yes.
    Should they do it? no.
    We can't really compare them to allied races (aside from the idea) because allied race only bring an active and a few passive racials with them. A class has an entire kit to consider - gameplay, animations, mechanics - that you can't just strap a coat of paint on and call it a day. It is much more elaborate and complicated than that.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    We can't really compare them to allied races (aside from the idea) because allied race only bring an active and a few passive racials with them. A class has an entire kit to consider - gameplay, animations, mechanics - that you can't just strap a coat of paint on and call it a day. It is much more elaborate and complicated than that.
    It definitely is more complicated than Allied Races, but it also depends on how class systems work in the future too. By the time class skins are considered, classes could become more modular than they are now, allowing for flexibility and customization. Same as Allied Races, where we're not talking about Vanilla WoW state of races with those racials carried over to new classes, we are looking at racials that got homogenized across the board.

    Remember Blood Elf Racials back in TBC? Very different from their racials today. Things would get scaled down and homogenized if class skins were to happen.

    As for whether anything would or should happen, well ffs Shadowlands should have added another class instead of Covenants but you and everyone else still bought the damn game anyways right?

    Unlike factions, you can't attach much story, PvE or PvP content to it. Other than some profession recipes, daily quests and grinds, it is utterly subsidiary.
    And time and time again, we're shown how little factions mean anything in the story. Even with BFA making faction conflict the big focus of the expansion, they didn't do anything meaningful with the Loyalists, or with Dark Rangers and Sylvanas split from the Horde storywise. It all circles back to Alliance and Horde being completely unchangeable because they are Factions. Storywise one can't rise while the other falls, gameplay wise they will always be designed to be equal. Races don't leave one side join another. Forsaken would not leave the Horde. Night Elves would never leave the Alliance. They're already rooted to the factions at a systemic level.

    And overall? Shadowlands even shows how pointless faction conflict is on this very expansion. The whole story centers on individuals and the Covenants, with Red and Blue conflicts practically non-existent since the focus is fighting against Zovaal.

    3rd faction would be pointless from a story perspective since BFA added plenty of Faction centric story and was unable to substantially do anything with it. Same can be said of MOP and Garrosh having divided the Horde and having Orgrimmar be considered Orc, Tauren and Goblin exclusive. That could never actually reflected in gameplay, and Orgrimmar being a raid didn't change any gameplay for whether you are Alliance or Horde; characters like Gamon would fight alongside the Alliance no problem.

    Outside of some specific Red vs Blue raid boss fights like Battle of Dazaralor or the Gunships in Wrath, PVE Raid content is neutral.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-18 at 03:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Same as Allied Races, where we're not talking about Vanilla WoW state of races with those racials carried over to new classes, we are looking at racials that got homogenized across the board.

    Remember Blood Elf Racials back in TBC? Very different from their racials today. Things would get scaled down and homogenized if class skins were to happen.
    Very bad idea.
    Homogenization ruins the uniqueness and immersion of classes' gameplay.

    And time and time again, we're shown how little factions mean anything in the story. Even with BFA making faction conflict the big focus of the expansion, they didn't do anything meaningful with the Loyalists, or with Dark Rangers and Sylvanas split from the Horde storywise. It all circles back to Alliance and Horde being completely unchangeable because they are Factions. Storywise one can't rise while the other falls, gameplay wise they will always be designed to be equal. Races don't leave one side join another. Forsaken would not leave the Horde. Night Elves would never leave the Alliance. They're already rooted to the factions at a systemic level.
    Everything you described is faction based. Almost anything in the game, from Cinematics to Story, is faction based. It constitutes the ground base of the game. Housing? barely even mentioned in lore.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Very bad idea.
    Homogenization ruins the uniqueness and immersion of classes' gameplay.
    Really, are we arguing that Blizzard is opposed against very bad ideas? We haven't gotten anything that I could even consider a *GOOD IDEA* since Legion.

    Everything you described is faction based. Almost anything in the game, from Cinematics to Story, is faction based. It constitutes the ground base of the game.
    Which cinematics are faction based exactly?

    Tyrande fighting Sylvanas? Sylvanas isn't even Horde any more, so no, not faction related. The cinematics are related to the current narrative.

    For you to say Factions constitutes the ground base of Cinematics and Story and ignore the fact both have zero Faction-related significance in Shadowlands is just outright lying to yourself here.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-18 at 05:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Really, are we arguing that Blizzard is opposed against very bad ideas? We haven't gotten anything that I could even consider a *GOOD IDEA* since Legion.
    Solution: let's just keep up the streak. -_-

    Which cinematics are faction based exactly?

    Tyrande fighting Sylvanas? Sylvanas isn't even Horde any more, so no, not faction related. The cinematics are related to the current narrative.

    For you to say Factions constitutes the ground base of Cinematics and Story and ignore the fact both have zero Faction-related significance in Shadowlands is just outright lying to yourself here.
    Not everything is about Shadowlands. Jeez...
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Solution: let's just keep up the streak. -_-
    Solution - let's not address any of the actual problems in the game and just add 2 more Factions -_-

    Not everything is about Shadowlands. Jeez...
    If Factions aren't integral to every expansion, then adding more Factions isn't going to really be worth much in the long run.

    As the story moves forward to exploring new realms, planets and historic locations, the Alliance and Horde faction conflicts will be less and less relevant. Say we're exploring some Titan Homeworld in the cosmic realm of Order, is anyone going to suddenly be interested in an Alliance vs Night Elf faction dispute?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-18 at 07:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Solution - let's not address any of the actual problems in the game and just add 2 more Factions -_-
    But, we're not talking about solving problems in WoW, are we?
    Plus, housing wouldn't solve anything either.

    If Factions aren't integral to every expansion, then adding more Factions isn't going to really be worth much in the long run.

    As the story moves forward to exploring new realms, planets and historic locations, the Alliance and Horde faction conflicts will be less and less relevant. Say we're exploring some Titan Homeworld in the cosmic realm of Order, is anyone going to suddenly be interested in an Alliance vs Night Elf faction dispute?
    So, you expect this aspect to go away completely as this game progresses?
    I don't believe it will...
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, you expect this aspect to go away completely as this game progresses?
    I don't believe it will...
    Does it need to go away? The point is the focus of the story is not centered around the faction conflicts/divisions, as it may have once been. It's growing towards a more cosmic-oriented focus that ultimately takes us well beyond Azeroth itself. As the threats grow, the reasons for inter-faction conflict diminishes. We're seeing exactly that in every expansion we face against some major villain we need to unite against; be it the Lich King, Deathwing, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods or now Zovaal.

    So when you start trying to promote additions of new Factions that are ultimately tied to Azeroth-based conflicts between races, then I can't say I'd believe that will happen either.

    Again, where does the story actually move forward with a Night Elf-centric faction built around protecting nature and having direct conflicts against Alliance and Horde if we take the fight straight to the Void Lords? Where do they actually fit in the story, because I don't really see any point to it all. Where do we go with a Scourge 2.0 Faction they're just going to be treated as allies with the Alliance and Horde and Night Elves in a fight against Sargeras 2.0 in some Chaos realm?

    Faction conflicts are interesting in the story when there are actual consequences involved. For years, Blizzard has tried to make meaningful consequences, with BFA being the biggest. But we can also see they fail every time to make any real meaningful lasting change to either faction, because ultimately the Horde/Alliance conflict itself is historically perpetuated by self-interested despots who are no longer in charge. Garrosh and Sylvanas were the two major causes of faction conflict. With Sylvanas either redeemed or out of power, then other major faction characters like Sylvanas and Greymane really have no lingering beef with the Horde. Frankly, no one left on either side really have any more lasting hatred for one another, with Jaina probably being the saltiest of the bunch.

    If they perpetuate the Alliance/Horde conflict in the future, after yet another uniting of forces to take down Zovaal, then it's going to be another artificial story means to do so. Thinly veiled betrayals based on miscommunication, like the beginning of Legion when Sylvanas pulls back troops because Vol'jin was mortally wounded, while the Alliance just thinks she ran away. Or BFA where everyone literally follows Sylvanas' orders to perpetuate a war that really didn't need to be fought at all. And to suggest that we need more factions to throw further conflict into the story? The conflict was already manufactured from the start, so any more conflict is just going to be more bad story writing from the writers with the most thinly-veiled reasons for any future conflict after everything we've gone through to unite and take out every single big-bad out there.

    If the Horde Council decides War on Alliance and Night Elves and Scourge factions is a good thing, then they're dumbasses because the Horde is going to be in a weaker position for it. That conflict makes sense in Warcraft 3, when fighting for territory and holding their ground before Orgrimmar was ever established makes absolute sense. Now that we're 20+ years into the future and they've gained plenty of territory and allies, and literally have zero reason to continue 'conquest', are super-aware of cosmic threats against all of Azeroth, as well as have made allies within the Alliance itself, then faction conflict doesn't really need to be pushed further into the story.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-18 at 11:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    I'm honestly just shocked to be in a non rambling, totally coherent vertigo12 thread.
    lolol tenchar
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSuze View Post
    You've mistakenly made the assumption that I'm not capable of buying MORE poutine.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Does it need to go away? The point is the focus of the story is not centered around the faction conflicts/divisions, as it may have once been. It's growing towards a more cosmic-oriented focus that ultimately takes us well beyond Azeroth itself. As the threats grow, the reasons for inter-faction conflict diminishes. We're seeing exactly that in every expansion we face against some major villain we need to unite against; be it the Lich King, Deathwing, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods or now Zovaal.

    So when you start trying to promote additions of new Factions that are ultimately tied to Azeroth-based conflicts between races, then I can't say I'd believe that will happen either.

    Again, where does the story actually move forward with a Night Elf-centric faction built around protecting nature and having direct conflicts against Alliance and Horde if we take the fight straight to the Void Lords? Where do they actually fit in the story, because I don't really see any point to it all. Where do we go with a Scourge 2.0 Faction they're just going to be treated as allies with the Alliance and Horde and Night Elves in a fight against Sargeras 2.0 in some Chaos realm?

    Faction conflicts are interesting in the story when there are actual consequences involved. For years, Blizzard has tried to make meaningful consequences, with BFA being the biggest. But we can also see they fail every time to make any real meaningful lasting change to either faction, because ultimately the Horde/Alliance conflict itself is historically perpetuated by self-interested despots who are no longer in charge. Garrosh and Sylvanas were the two major causes of faction conflict. With Sylvanas either redeemed or out of power, then other major faction characters like Sylvanas and Greymane really have no lingering beef with the Horde. Frankly, no one left on either side really have any more lasting hatred for one another, with Jaina probably being the saltiest of the bunch.

    If they perpetuate the Alliance/Horde conflict in the future, after yet another uniting of forces to take down Zovaal, then it's going to be another artificial story means to do so. Thinly veiled betrayals based on miscommunication, like the beginning of Legion when Sylvanas pulls back troops because Vol'jin was mortally wounded, while the Alliance just thinks she ran away. Or BFA where everyone literally follows Sylvanas' orders to perpetuate a war that really didn't need to be fought at all. And to suggest that we need more factions to throw further conflict into the story? The conflict was already manufactured from the start, so any more conflict is just going to be more bad story writing from the writers with the most thinly-veiled reasons for any future conflict after everything we've gone through to unite and take out every single big-bad out there.

    If the Horde Council decides War on Alliance and Night Elves and Scourge factions is a good thing, then they're dumbasses because the Horde is going to be in a weaker position for it. That conflict makes sense in Warcraft 3, when fighting for territory and holding their ground before Orgrimmar was ever established makes absolute sense. Now that we're 20+ years into the future and they've gained plenty of territory and allies, and literally have zero reason to continue 'conquest', are super-aware of cosmic threats against all of Azeroth, as well as have made allies within the Alliance itself, then faction conflict doesn't really need to be pushed further into the story.
    I love how you forgot to mention Battle for Azeroth, Mists of Pandaria and Cataclysm - which all had PvP story aspects to them. But, they're not important since they don't further your point, right? even Warlords of Draenor had a PvP conflict within it (Ashran) and that was a whole another planet and dimension. Outland and Wrath of the Lich King had so as well. You see, it doesn't have to be the main focal point of an expansion, but it can definitely be portrayed in the background.

    Your belief that we won't see Azeroth any time soon because the focus has been changed to a more cosmic scale is naive. One of the future possibilities is Dragon Isles, which is found on Azeroth. I have a whole list of places we haven't been to yet on Azeroth. So, you can forget the whole "we're going sci-fi" thing right now.

    Where do Night elves fit in? remember the Botani who came to Azeroth with the Mag'har? remember the Breakers who came along with the Mag'har? they are in an eternal conflict. A perfect scenario to resume the nature-loving night elves' conflict with the destructive Orcs (perpetuated by the two Draenor forces).

    Why would an evil faction ally with the others to take down a big baddy? same way the Lich King helped us during Legion. In the end, his goal is to protect Azeroth from external forces, only that his way (turning everyone into an undead) is not looked highly upon. That's a reason for conflict, disagreements. one's mentality and way of conduct does not always align with the others.

    The problem is you don't believe the Horde and the Alliance would have any conflicts after BfA apparently resolved them all. I highly doubt that. The belief that Blizzard would just throw away all faction conflict, when it was the heart of the game, is unlikely. Even if we go facing bigger threats. In the end, it would, too, get boring and the itch for some conflict would start again. See, i'm not advocating for faction-conflict based expansions like you listed here. The faction conflict doesn't need to be the main focal point of an expansion, but a secondary, yet fulfilling, aspect. Things like Battleground, Arenas and a few storylines here and there would be great within every expansion. I mean, there's so much you can enjoy out of PvE based content (and vice-versa). There should always be a mix. Too much of one thing gets stale pretty fast. "Balance must be maintained".
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I love how you forgot to mention Battle for Azeroth, Mists of Pandaria and Cataclysm - which all had PvP story aspects to them. But, they're not important since they don't further your point, right? even Warlords of Draenor had a PvP conflict within it (Ashran) and that was a whole another planet and dimension. Outland and Wrath of the Lich King had so as well. You see, it doesn't have to be the main focal point of an expansion, but it can definitely be portrayed in the background.
    Fair points, but the game has went through quite a shift since then.

    Most cause for PVP since Legion was squarely blamed on Sylvanas in retrospect. Sylvanas has effectively united both sides by being the bad guy. That baton passes to Zovaal now.


    Where do Night elves fit in? remember the Botani who came to Azeroth with the Mag'har?
    Night Elves have zero connection to Botani. Hell, considering they are an incredibly invasive foreign plant species, they could just as easily be major enemies to the Night Elves.

    Night Elves protect their own forests and sacred territory from invaders. Botani are neither native or natural to Azeroth.

    Why would an evil faction ally with the others to take down a big baddy?
    Ebon Blade was snd literally still is evil. Remember Four Horsemen storyline?.

    And yet they still do so to fight the greater evil.

    The problem is you don't believe the Horde and the Alliance would have any conflicts after BfA apparently resolved them all.
    I totally believe the A/H conflict would continue. The game is built around a 2-Faction system, so PVP will always exist. I just said it doesn't run through every expansion's story, which you implied that it did. I pointed out expansions that didn't have conflict as a counter to your statement, not as a standalone statement that Faction conflict itself does not exist. And lets keep it clear - Faction warfare is and has always been between 2 parties, Alliance and Horde.

    Any time there is a 3rd party involved, you know what happens? Alliance and Horde ends up working together to take em out. Literally the 3rd faction in the game is the unplayable Bad Guy of the Expansion's forces that seeks to capitalize on the A/H conflict. I pointed then out. Twilights Hammer. Burning Legion. Cult of the Damned. Garrosh and the Iron Horde. Sylvanas and her Loyalists

    Alliance and Horde would squash a 3rd faction before it were strong enough to compete with then both, especially after supplementing forces with Allied Races.

    Night Elves are still licking their wounds from BFA. They have been significantly weakened, and do not even have a standing capital any more. If Night Elves split off on their own and start conflicts with both Alliance and Horde as they exist today, then the Night Elves would get crushed. The Night Elf leaders would be treated as the Bad Guy of the expansion, just like Garrosh and the Iron Horde in Siege of Orgrimmar, or Sylvanas and her Loyalists. The story would end with a new Night Elf leader put in place who remains loyal to the Alliance. This is exactly what happened with Fandral Staghelm in Cataclysm.

    What is the Night Elves best interest in leaving the Alliance? Just to protect nature, when they could literally be doing that while still in the Alliance? Alliance isn't anti-nature, and they do plenty to protect it too.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-19 at 08:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #212
    (@Triceron)

    Let's say there were four factions, and like in WC3 any two factions could randomly be on each other's team for any kind of faction-based content (such as in world quest or random matchmade content) so that existing 2v2 content could be maintained as a one side vs the other, consisting of each side being two factions, while allowing weaker factions to team with stronger ones - if randomly. What kind of problems would arise from that?

    From what I can imagine, rolling a scenario like two weak factions vs two strong factions might be a nightmare scenario... but, with MMR controlling win rates superficially, it might make for a very good feeling if two weak factions can pull out a win that is perceived to be unwinnable, but the matchmaking would be fixing the players on either side to make such situations less dire to mitigate faction strengths. Otherwise, is there much downside to this WC3-style approach where the 4-way factions are teaming up in 2-faction splits randomly for content?

    I can imagine perhaps on the high end situations like pre-made groups might make matchmaking more nightmarish, but if half of one's team is composed of another group, doesn't this also allow matchmaking to control MMR between faction strength more...? In this way, 4-way faction could actually be used as a way to balance the two factions that otherwise were winning with their own team composed entirely of themselves -- suddenly they would be matched with half a team composed of randomly of the other 3 factions that would impact their ability to consistently always be the dominating faction strengths. It seems like one way to address the issue of faction balance, in a weird way... kind of pseudo-nerfing powerful factions by making them group with other factions weaker more regularly. Is this solution too idealistic?

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Fair points, but the game has went through quite a shift since then.

    Most cause for PVP since Legion was squarely blamed on Sylvanas in retrospect. Sylvanas has effectively united both sides by being the bad guy. That baton passes to Zovaal now.
    Nothing has changed. We had two PvP-oriented expansions, led by an evil Warchief, with a mere 2 expansions gap between them. Who would have believed that would happen after Varian threatened to dismantle them if they returned to their dishonorable ways.

    So, believing it won't happen again (not to that extent) is foolish.

    Night Elves have zero connection to Botani. Hell, considering they are an incredibly invasive foreign plant species, they could just as easily be major enemies to the Night Elves.

    Night Elves protect their own forests and sacred territory from invaders. Botani are neither native or natural to Azeroth.
    Do they? Night elves strive for more forests and vegetation (as can be seen by several druidic storylines in Cataclysm), the same as the Botani, while Orcs tend to be drawn to wastelands, the same as the Breakers. I believe their goals align (plus, it would be a hell of a disadvantage to have the Breakers on the Horde, but not the Primals on the Alliance).

    Ebon Blade was snd literally still is evil. Remember Four Horsemen storyline?.

    And yet they still do so to fight the greater evil.
    It was a rhetoric question. Read the whole thing before you answer. I answered it right after i asked it.

    I totally believe the A/H conflict would continue. The game is built around a 2-Faction system, so PVP will always exist. I just said it doesn't run through every expansion's story, which you implied that it did. I pointed out expansions that didn't have conflict as a counter to your statement, not as a standalone statement that Faction conflict itself does not exist. And lets keep it clear - Faction warfare is and has always been between 2 parties, Alliance and Horde.

    Any time there is a 3rd party involved, you know what happens? Alliance and Horde ends up working together to take em out. Literally the 3rd faction in the game is the unplayable Bad Guy of the Expansion's forces that seeks to capitalize on the A/H conflict. I pointed then out. Twilights Hammer. Burning Legion. Cult of the Damned. Garrosh and the Iron Horde. Sylvanas and her Loyalists

    Alliance and Horde would squash a 3rd faction before it were strong enough to compete with then both, especially after supplementing forces with Allied Races.

    Night Elves are still licking their wounds from BFA. They have been significantly weakened, and do not even have a standing capital any more. If Night Elves split off on their own and start conflicts with both Alliance and Horde as they exist today, then the Night Elves would get crushed. The Night Elf leaders would be treated as the Bad Guy of the expansion, just like Garrosh and the Iron Horde in Siege of Orgrimmar, or Sylvanas and her Loyalists. The story would end with a new Night Elf leader put in place who remains loyal to the Alliance. This is exactly what happened with Fandral Staghelm in Cataclysm.

    What is the Night Elves best interest in leaving the Alliance? Just to protect nature, when they could literally be doing that while still in the Alliance? Alliance isn't anti-nature, and they do plenty to protect it too.
    What are you talking about? every expansion has added some sort of a PvP content. Even Shadowlands added the Empyrean Domain arena. You are so blinded by the entire overall PvE storyline that you miss the sidelined PvP content.

    Faction conflicts were always between two factions because we only had two factions. No need for big brains to realize that. Every other faction is PvE oriented.

    These are PvE threats and in no way constitute a PvP faction conflict. The Twilight's Hammer, the Iron Horde, the Legion and the Scourge are baddies that we must fight against, just like Zovaal, not factions that we have territorial disputes with or conflicts over resources. You'd be wise to make that distinction.

    There would be no reason for the Horde and Alliance to team up and take out the other factions because they are not world threatening factions. The Alliance might cooperate with the Sentinels (because they contain former members) or the Horde with the Scourge (for the same reason), but overall it would be a conflict between 4 teams (blue, red, green and purple?) which would represent different mentalities (civilized, primitive, nature-loving, and evil).

    The Alliance has showed that they are incapable of protecting nature during War of Thorns and that they disappoint their allies. That would be enough of a reason for the Night elves to split off.

    That way, Alliance members would finally have an option to represent their more savage side (without crossing into the Horde) while Horde members would have an option to represent their more evil natures (without needing to apologize for it every other expansion). Besides, they already had too many frictions with the Forsaken as it is. These guys betrayed them more than once. A hell of a good reason for them to split off.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-08-19 at 10:16 AM.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, believing it won't happen again (not to that extent) is foolish.
    I was making a point that not every expansion has Faction Conflict integrated into the story, not that it does not exist in the story st all.

    All the work to add another Faction for the sake of pushing for Faction conflict narratives is just not worth the work involved.

    Do they? Night elves strive for more forests and vegetation (as can be seen by several druidic storylines in Cataclysm), the same as the Botani, while Orcs tend to be drawn to wastelands, the same as the Breakers. I believe their goals align (plus, it would be a hell of a disadvantage to have the Breakers on the Horde, but not the Primals on the Alliance).
    Thats a lot of mental gymnastics for something you don't know would happen.

    If I explain further why there are problems with your idea, we're just gonna circle back with you saying 'Oh, interesting thought. I never thought of that' because you literally never think about your explanations before you throw em out there.

    Heres the rundown - you think Botani can be an answer because it addresses a concern I have, and you accept it because you want to throw out ideas that address the problem more than you want to present solutions that actually makes sense.

    This is exactly what happened when you tried to explain Mag'har deserved a separate class because they wouldn't have Warlocks, while completely not recognizing Wildhammers. Why did you come to that conclusion in the first place? Because you just wanted to address my problem rather than provide an actual explanation to address why there are inconsistencies between Clans made into Customization options and made into Allied Races.

    And you don't really care how absurd your explanation would be, because you can always fall back on 'it was just an idea' and brush it off.

    Lets not waste any more time here debating ideas that you put zero effort in.

    Faction conflicts were always between two factions because we only had two factions. No need for big brains to realize that. Every other faction is PvE oriented.
    Yes, because Alliance and Horde are the only 2 Player factions. By design.

    These are PvE threats and in no way constitute a PvP faction conflict. The Twilight's Hammer, the Iron Horde, the Legion and the Scourge are baddies that we must fight against, just like Zovaal, not factions that we have territorial disputes with or conflicts over resources. You'd be wise to make that distinction.
    There is no distinction.
    The only difference between PVE and PVP by definition is whether the 'enemy' is playable or not.

    Scourge is a PVP faction in WC3, PVE faction in WoW. Difference in definition is purely in whether they are playable or not. Twilights Hammer, Legion, Cult of the Damned, Scourge, Iron Horde and the Loyalists can all be a PVP faction just by merely being made playable. Thats it.

    And by design, they are not playable in WoW.. Blizzard intends only 2 Playable factions, which is why PVP will only exist between these two.


    Ebon Blade is exactly what you are describing as how neutral factions would work. Another example is the Illidari. That it doesn't represent a full playable faction is just because the game isn't built to support it. Everything else about lore and RP that you're asking for is right there. Ebon Blade hot their own quests that had them being hostile to Alliance and Horde to raise the 4 Horsemen. That is the extent Blizzard is willing to take any Neutral faction.

    How would Blizzard fit in a Night Elf neutral faction? Lorewise, they'd more likely split them off through some Night Elf exclusive class more than make a new playable faction. Night Elves as a race are effectively part of the Alliance, and thats not going to change just because you would like to see it happen. It's the same as talking about Ebon Blade becoming a full new faction. Do you see it happening? And if not, what would be different to your Night Elf ideas?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-19 at 05:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #215
    They can't handle 2 factions and you want 3rd.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  16. #216
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    Wait... another playable faction? Hahahahahahaha
    You are joking right?
    Is this an out of season april fools joke?


    Games been on the decline for a long damn time, and noone I knows doesnt anything beyond raid log and that that.let alone get enough people for proper 20 mans.

    Haha Haha

    No. Maybe in cataclysm when they revamped the world.but now after 15 yrs of wow u think they will add a 3rd faction hahahaha no.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Heres the rundown - you think Botani can be an answer because it addresses my concern, and you accept it because you want to be right more than you want the idea to actually make sense. Because if I say came up with the same idea, you'd be more likely to dismiss the suggestion as not making sense, and likely for the exact reasons I point out like them being purely hostile and having zero lore connection to Night Elves.
    Have you ever stopped to think why they introduced Botani and Breakers, who are in an eternal conflict (like the Horde and Alliance), into Azeroth and made the Breakers join the Horde?

    Yes, because Alliance and Horde are the only 2 Player factions. By design.
    Is that design so ingrained into the game's code, like the backpack, that they cannot possibly change it? It's like thinking where would they put more races on the screen once we thought the limit has been reached (which was solved).

    There is no distinction.
    The only difference between PVE and PVP by definition is whether the 'enemy' is playable or not.

    Scourge is a PVP faction in WC3, PVE faction in WoW. Difference in definition is purely in whether they are playable or not. Twilights Hammer, Legion, Cult of the Damned, Scourge, Iron Horde and the Loyalists can all be a PVP faction just by merely being made playable. Thats it.

    And by design, they are not playable in WoW.. Blizzard intends only 2 Playable factions, which is why PVP will only exist between these two.


    Ebon Blade is exactly what you are describing as how neutral factions would work. Another example is the Illidari. That it doesn't represent a full playable faction is just because the game isn't built to support it. Everything else about lore and RP that you're asking for is right there. Ebon Blade hot their own quests that had them being hostile to Alliance and Horde to raise the 4 Horsemen. That is the extent Blizzard is willing to take any Neutral faction.

    How would Blizzard fit in a Night Elf neutral faction? They'd more likely split them off through some Night Elf exclusive class more than make a new playable faction. Night Elves are effectively part of the Alliance, and thats not going to change just because you would like to see it happen. It's the same as talking about Ebon Blade becoming a full new faction. Do you see it happening? And if not, what would be different to your Night Elf ideas?
    There is, in fact, a distinction. These PvE factions are not in a conflict with certain races, like the rivalry of some Horde and Alliance races, but with all of them (as they plan to take over the world).

    Notice your wording. The factions themselves, as a whole, cannot be made playable. Their races might. But, in order to do so, they forsake their former agendas and ambitions.

    That's a lot of confidence. Are you sure, for certain, that this is how it will be for all eternity?

    Again, you are talking about Class-based factions, not races. The Ebon Blade cannot fulfill it for those who are not Death Knights.

    Jesus christ... why do everything need to be class-based with you? a faction of Night elves doesn't need to tie into a certain class. What would be the difference you ask? it constituting more than just a single race or class.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They never did join the Alliance. You are using headcanon to suggest Botani would be a playable race, yet this isn't an answer to faction splitting either, any more than you could say Night Fae are joining to fight against the Horde and Alliance. Theres nothing supporting any of this.

    If you want to present a Faction concept, then do so clearly and outline your ideas, otherwise just saying Botani exist doesn't mean anything to why Night Elves would separate from Alliance and Horde.



    Its imbedded in balance and system designs, so in short, yes.

    Matchmaking is faction dependant, and balance does not have all races playable on either faction, even in Merc Mode. We're talking multiple levels of integrated 2-Faction design.



    Horde and Alliance conflict isn't interracial either. Its faction wide. Gnomes have no ill will towards any Horde race, Highmountain have no ill will against Alliance who helped them in Legion equally. They fight because they happen to be part of the factions.



    I could confidently say Zerg will never be playable in WoW either, even though you can point at other games and even the RTS where they can be playable alongside Warcraft heroes. Why? Because its unrealistic.

    I'm confident because the idea of 3rd and 4th factions is unfounded and unrealistic.
    Where do you get your confidence from because honestly you got one old and hairy ballsack.

    Because its unrealistic.
    Brain malfunction always keep on using disjoint analogy and examples. Do you feel proud using zerg as example of being included as a usable unit in WoW because you're out of ideas? Better bring your suggestions to MoBA genre because you're just spewing trash here. Thanks for the bump though, that I can give you credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720
    Have you ever stopped to think why they introduced Botani and Breakers, who are in an eternal conflict (like the Horde and Alliance), into Azeroth and made the Breakers join the Horde?
    They are still out of the picture and context but once we return to Azeroth, or whatever it has become they might be relevant to the upcoming story and perhaps going to be recruited as allied race. Instead of one of the two directly going to one specific faction, I think it would be best they stay neutral ang allow either faction to recruit them similar to how Pandaren are recruited else better keep them to a neutral block of allied race per expac or storyblock

    ex.
    Venthyr, Kyrian, Maldraxxi, Night Fae for Shadowlands story block
    Botani, Saberon, Mogu, Jinyu, Hozen, Klaxxi another story block

    Is that design so ingrained into the game's code,
    of course not faction could have been array of faction and currently might only have that on the list similar to how race is not a fixed list as it can get updated per expac. As a proof you can perform various activities with a neutral Pandaren and reach max level and neither choose a faction.

    we thought the limit has been reached
    Allied race is their excuse and their solution to an already filled array of races. Allied race is simply a new and second list of race once it gets filled they may create a new one not unless they increase the size_of that list or array or simply treat it as linked list.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2021-08-19 at 07:53 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    They are still out of the picture and context but once we return to Azeroth, or whatever it has become they might be relevant to the upcoming story and perhaps going to be recruited as allied race. Instead of one of the two directly going to one specific faction, I think it would be best they stay neutral ang allow either faction to recruit them similar to how Pandaren are recruited else better keep them to a neutral block of allied race per expac or storyblock

    ex.
    Venthyr, Kyrian, Maldraxxi, Night Fae for Shadowlands story block
    Botani, Saberon, Mogu, Jinyu, Hozen, Klaxxi another story block
    I thought so, as well. But, i don't think the Botani's model is suited for playability (the lack of armor). They can't be neutral because the Breakers already joined the Horde alongside the Mag'har. Now, i don't say they would become allied races, but the Horde and Alliance, each, would definitely push to aid one of these two factions in their conflict.

    On the other hand, i agree with the Shadowlands races becoming playable.
    Since the Saberon were intentionally left relevant (along with the Botani), and the fact that they are based on the Worgen skeleton and that they can wear armor, i believe they would become an allied race at some point (for the Horde, as they are tribal).
    I highly believe the Mogu would become playable. Even though their model wasn't updated, a faction of them (the Rajani) joined us in 8.3, and since they are based on the Draenei skeleton it wouldn't be so hard to adjust it. It makes the most sense for them to join their old Zandalari allies in the Horde (and because they are cruel and ruthless like the Orcs).
    I think they it is more likely that they would add the Ankoan, rather than the Jinyu, alongside a Blademaster class.
    Although i would very much like to see Hozen become playable, i don't know if their model allows it. Their hands are already used to support their body, which limits their use. Though, they have been seen to be among the Horde ranks in Zuldazar. They would have to introduce an upright Hozen model (like this: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Lotus_Bruiser)
    The Mantid, again, would be another cool option. But, i don't know if their model allows it with their extra pair of hands sprouting from their chest and the pair of wings on their back.

    of course not faction could have been array of faction and currently might only have that on the list similar to how race is not a fixed list as it can get updated per expac. As a proof you can perform various activities with a neutral Pandaren and reach max level and neither choose a faction.


    Allied race is their excuse and their solution to an already filled array of races. Allied race is simply a new and second list of race once it gets filled they may create a new one not unless they increase the size_of that list or array or simply treat it as linked list.
    The only problem is that there is no way for the Pandaren to leave the Wandering Isle to show us how neutrality works. That would have been very helpful for Triceron.

    True. How else would they fit the upcoming Shadowlands races on that list...
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-08-20 at 06:32 AM.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I thought so, as well. But, i don't think the Botani's model is suited for playability (the lack of armor). They can't be neutral because the Breakers already joined the Horde alongside the Mag'har. Now, i don't say they would become allied races, but the Horde and Alliance, each, would definitely push to aid one of these two factions in their conflict.

    On the other hand, i agree with the Shadowlands races becoming playable.
    Since the Saberon were intentionally left relevant (along with the Botani), and the fact that they are based on the Worgen skeleton and that they can wear armor, i believe they would become an allied race at some point (for the Horde, as they are tribal).
    I highly believe the Mogu would become playable. Even though their model wasn't updated, a faction of them (the Rajani) joined us in 8.3, and since they are based on the Draenei skeleton it wouldn't be so hard to adjust it. It makes the most sense for them to join their old Zandalari allies in the Horde (and because they are cruel and ruthless like the Orcs).
    I think they it is more likely that they would add the Ankoan, rather than the Jinyu, alongside a Blademaster class.
    Although i would very much like to see Hozen become playable, i don't know if their model allows it. Their hands are already used to support their body, which limits their use. Though, they have been seen to be among the Horde ranks in Zuldazar. They would have to introduce an upright Hozen model (like this: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Lotus_Bruiser)
    The Mantid, again, would be another cool option. But, i don't know if their model allows it with their extra pair of hands sprouting from their chest and the pair of wings on their back.



    The only problem is that there is no way for the Pandaren to leave the Wandering Isle to show us how neutrality works. That would have been very helpful for Triceron.

    True. How else would they fit the upcoming Shadowlands races on that list...
    Here's the link and video which was a hot topic back in Mist of Pandaria. It only shows that even back then this was a possibility.


    But who knows a neutral quest could be looming ahead.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2021-08-20 at 10:41 AM.

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