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Oo. thanks for this break down.Originally Posted by Razion
There is potential for most of the races to connect to Elune. Unfortunately she is so intricately tied to the elves, i can only realistically see Nightborne, void elves and worgen outside thenight elves coming to her.
But if they did expand her, yeh, this is a good list. Would Draenei actually worship Elune? Is it agianst htier light focused religion?
I am thinking maybe not, wouldn't it be improbably or unbelievable to write that some Draenei believe Elune is their access to the Light o - especially if they discover she is the creator of the Naaru, that could turn them into huge believers of Elune.
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SHe is no nature goddess. Life pantheon =/= nature god. Nature could be part of a life pantheon - not every member of the so called death pantheon is a death magic wielding being majoring in shadow magic or death magic.
and part of the Life pantheon? according to who? Has that being stated? how did Elune sudenly become a nature goddess or being life pantheon mean she is a nature goddess? Do blizzard say this? what does it even mean that Winter Queen calls her sister? it's not been defined yet. Or you saying this because night elves are naturey therefore Elune must be a nature godddess? I thought that was what Druidism and the wild gods were about. Elune is different - it’s possible she created all of them/that but certainly not limited or constrained.
Note: Elune so far has shown up primarily through the Well of Eternity, the arcane, the light and void. Not nature. And yes she is definitely for life for sure, but her base isn't nature, nature in wow is a consequence of arcane (order) and light anyway, or at least so it seems, Elune seems to be a bit above.
So far we have arcane, light and void... when druid's tap into her power, it's only arcane that shows up, not nature, their nature access comes from the emerald dream and nature itself as taught by Cenarius, not Elune.
Blizzard did distinguish between the two clearly, unless they've changed their mind, and now decided she is a nature goddess... but I thought Aessina was the spirit of nature - i.e. the nature goddess.
Tyrande has always been a star and moon magic wielder, with bow and arrow as main weapon, and extensions to light and void - never seen her wielding nature powers.
Does everyone assume that night elf automatically means forest and nature even when there is clearly something else?
Anyway, I'm confused.. what does Life pantheon even mean?
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2021-07-12, 07:37 AM #21Banned
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Last edited by Beloren; 2021-07-12 at 12:02 PM.
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2021-07-12, 08:26 AM #22Herald of the Titans
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I think that if Velen is saying that there are similarities between The Naaru and Elune that the Draenei would listen to and respect the words of their Prophet. Originally Posted by Beloren
I think the Draenei would consider Elune through the words of the Prophet an extension of The Light to worship, or something worthy that The Light touches - perhaps proof of The Light's grace or glory. They may consider as well worshiping Elune alongside The Light, I think it would be "in harmony with" rather than "instead of". As they do Shamanism - respect for, worship alongside.
Draenei can be thousands upon thousands of years old, with wisdom ancient and their magical insight vast, with them spending much of their lives in introspection of The Light. Draenei hold a deep respect for even the elements of Azeroth - for a goddess like Elune, I think they would hold a bit more reverence still. I think this kind of relationship would be one built on respect and trust, one of humility and service rather than one of devotion or prostration. I think that's how Elune would want it, anyway. I think also, that Velen would see that as best.
In terms of what Velen says, I think when he was talking to Tyrande he was just trying to help her communicate with her goddess. But in this moment Tyrande seemed to not turn away his words entirely -- just that it would be blasphemous in the company of others, as if she knew the truth of what he was saying and that she would be open to a way to communicate with Elune if it would work. Such a means we even know of - it was in Winterspring, as a crystal. But personally, I would be disappointed to see Elune as a Naaru or Titan or being of any sort. Elune seems more like her own thing, and I wouldn't want to take that away from her. I prefer Elune be mysterious and unknowable, almost a symbol where the power comes from the idea and faith of it rather than Elune necessarily even being a real tangible being... whether Elune is real or not I think should always be in question. As should the nature of gods and goddesses be.
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2021-07-12, 09:51 AM #23Warchief
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My theory is that Elune is a constellar but ages have passed and she is now in a different form. That would explain how Naaru got created. It could be a shards of a star. That would explain Elunaris and even how Titans came to be. If I follow the big bang theory of universe then consteallars are the First Ones. I realized that after killing last boss in Tazavesh. Collapsing stars. Those are abilities that Algalon has. Celestial relics are all over the Maw. All I can only hope that the Jailer wont hurt him or anyone of his kind. I played my mage as a constellation from the very beginning. I always loved Algalon and I hope this isn't true and he will be safe and so Elune and Blue Child.
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2021-07-12, 10:02 AM #24Elemental Lord
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humans, wow right now everything and everyone exists to show how amazing perfect humans (of wow) are, anything good humans will do it better than whoever invented it
draenei have affiliation to magic? literally immortal who practice magic for 25k+ years? humans still beat them because humans are amazing
over 10k years old warrior race? humans are better than u because they are amazing, and as a bonus a 16 year old anime boy king will teach u about patience when u probably have lock of hair older than his grandfather
u are a literal walking corpse who can stealth hunt ur target hiding underwater or bury urself underground for days without problem? humans will still have better spy agency and rogues because fuck u humans are awesome
don't forget bonus of having hot female elves falling for ur amazing human charisma
Heck i won't be surprised if Elune decides that humans are her most favorite race since they are humans, what other reason u want?The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
Thrall
http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power
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2021-07-12, 10:34 AM #25Banned
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Interesting thought. I hadn’t considered this. Originally Posted by Cloudmaker
If Titans can be planets, can greater beings be stars?
Elune doesn’t actually have to be the moon. So far all indicators point to the moon being the symbol the Night elves use for her, and the stars the symbol they use for themselves because starlight and moonlight are what they love best.
So it stands to reason that the biggest light in the night sky, the moon is what they give the biggest being in their existence, their goddess and not that she is actually the moon. So the moon symbols that manifest are of their making, to symbolise the moon as representing their symbol of the goddess rather than Elune causing a moon to manifest on her forehead because she is the moon or nonsense like that. Elune clearly isn’t the moon actually.
Also It’s arcane obviously because it is through arcane magic they discover Elune and that is the principle magic force they are connected to from their origin story. All elves get arcane affinity from the night elves.
But only night elves combine arcane and nature to such degrees and only night elves recognised this deity through their magic
If I got this right @ravenmoon @Razion and @Aucald
It seems logical that night Elves’ love for nature comes from the love for the stars. Prior to tall buildings, trees got them closest to the stars. So they loved the trees for that and nature subsequently which Cenarius’ early contact enabled this to develop greatly in them appreciating more of the natural world.
Their love for arcane comes from their natural connection being made from the Well of Eternity. Arcane gave them enlightenment, and Elune is discovered through the Well - the magic of the stars is arcane too so there is an intrinsic connection
Didn’t they believe Elune dwelt within the well of eternity ? Maybe their initial fascination with the well was because they could see the reflection of the stars and moon from its surface, being the only body of water near their emerging society.
It also seems logical that the intensity of studying the well is motivated by trying to reach the stars, then trying to reach Elune the Goddess they discover in it.
I also agree that this is why the Order’s magic is very heavily arcane and agree that it is logical night elven magecraft would have developed from elves who instead focused on the practical applications only of the discoveries of their studies. While the priesthood kept a spiritual perspective.
This explains why the Order has always held the arcane waters of the Well of Eternity as sacred - something echoed in war of the ancients strongly, and all part of the night elf opening quests in both cata and the original classic.
It explains why night elves, including many Highborne were agitated at the intense use of the original well by the palace Highborne as if they weren’t treating it sacred enough and it explains why the priesthood isn’t that affected by the well not being used because they treat it very sacred and we’re always sparing in its use, so when magic needs to be banned they are okay because their order’s mandate of safeguarding the sacred waters is still upheld, unlike the Mage profession that is utterly destroyed in that group by this ban.
I mean - none of this is stated outright, but there is a logic that fits several pieces.
This is probably the way Elune, the arcane and nature are all tied together in the night elves’ heart. That early nature love Cenarius fostered in them is part of the base original need to reach the stars through the trees.
And despite the issues with arcane practice during the long vigil era, arcane as a magical source and power has always been with them and an intrinsic part of them through the Well of Eternity and its smaller Moonwells we know is a symbol of the night elves.
Have I got this pretty much right ?
I’d also like your views on this @MyWholeLifeIsThunder and @Mace
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2021-07-12, 12:13 PM #26Herald of the Titans
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To explain how Night Elves obtained Druidism and reverence of Elune, they're quite different. Originally Posted by Beloren
Druidism came about during the War of the Ancients, or just before rather, when Cenarius taught Malfurion - the first Night Elf druid. Malfurion was patient. Illidan was not. When the Demons came, at behest of the reckless practice of magic by Azshara and the Highborne, Azeroth was nearly overrun and destroyed if it weren't for the intervention of key figures and events. Afterwards, Illidan spread the waters of the Well around the world, and they were blessed. Other fonts of power remained from the fracturing of the world, such as in Pandaria. Magic became outlawed as far as the Arcane went - as it nearly destroyed the world and had split the landmasses far and wide. Azeroth forever bears the mark of shame of the Night Elves, having so recklessly reached with such hubris that they nearly destroyed the universe's last hope against The Legion - and more besides. It was under the guidance of Malfurion that the Night Elves became the world's vigilant watchers, that swore that they would watch over and protect the world lest it fall to darkness once again. The practices of the druids was put in place by Malfurion to prevent disaster, to heal the world through the Dream after it had been so greatly damaged. He made the promise with the dragonflights, for the Night Elves to be the world's guardians. It was a safeguard against hubris, and an effort to live in harmony with the world. In a way, it was their penance, their payment for a crime so great it could perhaps never be healed. After the War of the Ancients, the Night Elves were blessed with immortality to eternally watch over the world. It was only later, at the Reign of Chaos, where the Night Elves forfeited their immortality to save the world from Archimonde during the return of the Legion once again.
The rise of worship of Elune came around at the time of the original formation of Dark Trolls around The Well. The legend that she slept in the waters after she did her works could be an analogue, a myth, a legend, depicting just the setting of the moon or an explanation for a natural phenomenon, more like. It could be there's some truth to it, or not. But it's some of the only tangible lore to the beginnings of reverence to the deity that exist. While it's true that the waters changed the Dark Trolls physically, calling them enlightened is certainly a unique way to say it... if at all accurate, as faith is what gives priests their power, not fonts of Arcane power. Dark Trolls certainly adapted the raw power of The Well to fueling the construction of great magical works. But, are cities like Dazar'alor any less grand? Different, perhaps. To put it more accurately, perhaps The Well inspired creativity and new legends. Trolls revere Loa, and in another light we could perhaps say that Elune is one as well. For what is Elune, if not a great and powerful being? Indeed she was revered alongside other Loa, for a time.
Saying the Night Elves look up from trees to the stars, to be closer, is a fun romantic observation. Perhaps a nice little tale to tell children. But in terms of the reality of the situation, the great World Trees were planted to reaffirm the Night Elves' commitment to Azeroth. To atone for the breaking of the world and their desire to help heal it. The Night Elves didn't plant the tree to get closer to Elune, they planted these trees as part of their long vigil. The waters of the Well of Eternity weren't sacred so much as they were a drug - an addiction to the Arcane that the Highborne and Illidan felt strongly. Illidan may have had his own reasons for planting the waters as a backdrop to protect the world, but for the greater society of elven culture the Well's waters were a way of life they had come to rely on and become dependent on. When you speak to Blood Elves, to their leaders, such as Kael'thas he will say thus, "Magic, my people are addicted to it." So great was their addiction that they turned to the very powers that once threatened the world and nearly destroyed it. So great is the hubris of elves and those who reach too far in magics - addictions - they cannot control.
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2021-07-12, 08:23 PM #27Legendary!
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1. The Worgen
Led by Ralaar Fangfire, these Druids of the Pack sought to temper the uncontrollable rage inherent in their chosen form. To do so, they willingly submitted to the energies of the Scythe of Elune, a mystical artifact created from Goldrinn's fang and the staff of Elune.
Rather than abate the druids' fury, however, the weapon transformed Ralaar and his followers into worgen: bestial humanoids enslaved by their own primal instincts.
2. The Tauren
The tauren were also known to honor, if not outright worship Elune.
3. The Shadowmoon Clan
The Shadowmoon had a history of astrology, they had always spoken the language of the stars, the earth, and the moon.
4. The Zandalari
It is heavily implied that the matron the Lun'alai worship is Elune.
Lun'alai could possibly mean "Elune's Ones", as Atal'ai means Devoted Ones, wherein Lun'al could be Elune's name in Zandali.
5. Highmountain Tauren
Much like the Kalimdor tauren, the Highmountain tauren worship the Earth Mother and her two eyes, An'she (the sun) and Mu'sha (the White Lady).
Races i don't see being associated with Elune
Nightborne:
"While several nightborne NPCs seem to vaguely acknowledge Elune (such as Oculeth recalling how the Temple of Fal'adora once "glowed with with prayers to Elune"), it is implied that worship of Elune gradually receded after Suramar was sealed off from the rest of the world, without sunlight or moonlight, and its inhabitants turned to the arcane-based Nightwell instead of traditional religion to shape and sustain their culture, with there being no known priestess of Elune remaining within the city."
Blood elves:
"The blood elves venerate the metaphorical idea of the "sun" in their culture. They consider themselves the "sun-blessed," and have incorporated it into even their social greetings and farewells. This reverence is the polar opposite belief of their night elven cousins, who hold the moon in a similarly high regard."
Humans:
"Humans revere the Holy Light, who became a central part of all civilized human society, as their primary religion and a staple of worship, respect, and honor. The Church of the Holy Light is the religious institution at the head of this predominant human religion, and plays a significant role in all human societies.
Its members are dedicated to create a world of honor and justice, striving to aid others and be good in all actions. By embodying the tenets of their religion, the Church's skilled clergy can wield holy magic called the Light.
Through the centuries, the Church constructed temples, shrines, and churches in the far-flung human lands as places of worship, with a hierarchy of religious leaders to oversee its devoted followers. These monuments stand in their cities, where their priests preside over followers, they heal and restore in times of peace, soothe the weary, protect in times of war, and crusade against what they consider evil."
And Draenei:
"The draenei society is centered around the Holy Light of Creation.
As a result, unlike the humans and dwarves, or other races, whose knowledge of the Light is tied mainly to religious sects, and the blood elves, who usually channel their powers through the Sunwell, the draenei have a more direct link to it through their relationship with the naaru."
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2021-07-13, 09:01 AM #28Banned
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@Beloren , I'll use Razion's response to respond to you as he does a fairly good job..Razion, I just have a few issues here and there with some of the things you say, I mostly agree, but I've written a lot on the minor issues just to delve into some extra background and my reasoning for drawing such conclusions which you are free to accept or not.
Not really, Cenarius came to the night elves in the early years of their civilization. His teachings aren't developed into druidism until Malfurion excelled AFTER the sundering. Originally Posted by Razion
According to Chronicles. The forest spirits brought news to Cenarius of this race, impressed by their love for nature. so it is possible this love arose from loving trees because it brought them closer to the stars.
Practice of magic, not magic itself was outlawed, and because it would bring the Legion, not because it nearly destroyed the world.. It was the Legion that nearly destroyed the world, and it aws arrogance and hubris of the night elves that brought them responsible for their arrival. Originally Posted by Razion
The arcane use of the well was the means.. it was destroyed to evict them, and it's use outlawed to prevent them from returning.
This is a massive difference, because it reminds us that magic is not the villain, but just a tool - it's the Legion who can destroy the world, is the focus of the long vigil.
This is mostly correct, or at least i mostly agree with this except for Originally Posted by Razion
1. It was no safeguard against hubris - you can't safeguard against hubris, and they didn't to. Pride goes before a fall. You don't safeguard against it is, you choose not to be it. The rest of that statement seems correct
2. Practice of the druids wasn't put in place to prevent disaster - the long vigil is the cause that the night elves of the north committed themselves to to prevent the legions returning. There is no "preventing another sundering - because that wasn't an accident nor was it a goal - it was the Legion". Druidism is a calling/discipline or a profession. It's purpose isn't to safeguard the world, though some druids, like any person and any class can take it upon themselves to do so with whatever profession or calling they aspire to.
Druidism was about protecting, and healing the natural world. The main purpose was the pact with Ysera to guide the evolution of the world through the emerald dream. Yes part of it was to heal the devastation of nature wrought by the corruption of the legion and the destruction caused by the sundering, but it really is to guide the waking world according tot he blueprint in the dream.
3. Remember when the pacts were made, druids didn't exist, it was priests, mages and surviving soldiers.. It was later because the arcane was banned, that the mages, Highborne, Moonguard etc, turned to other things, the men mostly turned to druidism, the lore doesn't specifically mention the women, but it's likely they were involved with the order of Elune.
It was the kaldorei people led by Tyrande that did most of the safeguarding of the world , not the druids. The druids were concerned with nature and it's protection. Malfurion was involved and interested in global matters concerning nature, it was the night elf nation led by Tyrande that was fulfilling the military task.
Technically, the night elves immortality was restored, through the blessing of the tree, because they were connected to it. The blessings were to safeguard the tree so it would endure it is purpose of masking the massive magical energy of the well of eternity from any one in the twisting nether by regulating it's ebb and flow - basically I understand to mean the power source was hidden (which is why the legion in WC3, couldn't find it easily, and Arhcimonde figured out the tree was in the way - it also stopped access to the power of the well, as also witnessed by events in WC3 - this is because the night elves and dragons alike believed (based on the knowledge of the night elves) that the magical well was the only way the demons could return and also was the main reason for them coming to Azeroth - their was no blue flight to offer additional expertise, and it turns out the night elves were wrong about both counts, but it did remove a major threat. Originally Posted by Razion
Anyway, the way WotA, describes it, it seemed like a reward for destroying the legion and committing to the task, but it is never stated.. it is also possible that it was to also remove the temptation of using the arcane from the well of eternity to indefinitely prolong their life, which is what they were doing prior to the destruction of the Well of Eternity.
WE don't really know what stage the elves are at when they discover Elune, but they are not dark trolls at this point, they discover her while studying the well, and the lore tells us they are already elves at this point, it is however possible they had cottoned on to Elune before that - because the Zandali have some record of Lunara - is this Elune? or a a vague concept of her? But we know understanding of Elune at least as the goddess they know, doesn't come as dark trolls but as night elves. Originally Posted by Razion
And the power of the priests? It's quite possible it comes from themselves and Elune is the inspiration to focus that power, whether arcane - from themselves and from the well, light from themselves or from Elune or another source. WE don't know. We do know night elves are filled with the power of the well of eternity, so this seems to indicate they have a measure of internal arcane power, and their studying of the well that causes them to discover Elune is also magic that they discover.
So it's quite possible it is the arcane magic learnt from the race that is channelled in the name of Elune. We know the purpose of magical usage in the priesthood is different form the mages. The mages seem to use it for applications and practical things. It does seem logical (although the lore doesn't state it outright) that the magic is discovered by studying the well to discover more about Elune, so it is done by the priests, and that is the magic they wield, however, their focus is the Goddess, not practical applications. They have some practical applications they discover, but it would be the mages that develop from using the magic for practical purposes.
Practical purposes serve everybody and make life easier, .. it is understandable that it would have grown quite popular as more advances were made, and these guys got better and better at using the arcane for practical purposes which is why it developed into the profession of magecraft.. But it's quite understandable and logical if this priesthood is the origin of this and the oldest institution of magic, it's just that it's purpose is different.
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the well of eternity and it's waters are sacred to them - why? Because this is viewed as the goddess waters, and is part of their faith as well as having other things. Even when the first well is destroyed out of necessity, just like the main temple was destroyed out of necessity, we see the new Well given the same reverence and the moonwells they create from it given that reverence. It's entirely possible it is all interconnected.
Dark trolls did not harness anything, they were already transformed to Elves by the elves, with increased super intelligence, and this is what enables them to unlock the secrets of the well, and proliferate into a global dominant force. Originally Posted by Razion
Dazar'alor of the Zandalari as you know Razion, is built independent of the elves, and is done so before they even come to be. Dazar'alor is built upon the titan facilities. But no one can mistake Elune for a loa. Loa are wild god spirits from the emerald dream and giant animal creatures when in the flesh in the waking.
The trolls worship loa they have met and know off, an incorporeal real divinity like Elune is impossible to be mistaken for a loa. Both the magic and focus is entirely different. The loa are all about the natural world - and in many respect very much tied to druidism although the trolls don't manipulate nature like that - because they aren't taught this way by Cenarius - they act as priests that use the power of their Loa to do things.. so it' s more a beeseching/prayer thing than an actual use of power.
This is possible because they actually know and meet these wild god creatures. Not so with Elune, only the High Priestess for starters seems to actually be touched or directly communicate or hear the goddess, which is an indication the power of the priest comes from them primarily ,not the goddess, and the goddess is just their inspiration.
She has power, but it seems this is accessed by the high priestess. We know the power of the priests comes from the light within them, their own light, which all sentient beings have, the light religion is an inspiration to access those powers. The light powers night elf priests would use comes from them, it is not unreasonable to also theorise that the arcane powers they use in calling from the stars, is their magic connecting with that of the celestial bodies , and/but they do this in the name of the Goddess who's inspiration inspires them to make the magical connection.
I'm drawing these conclusions from observations of how we have interacted or seen trolls interact with loa, descriptions in books of druids and nature and off course of night elves with Elune and the stuff blizzard put out about Light priests and accessing the light as a priest for your class.
That was not the purpose of world trees. The first world tree is planted to hide the energy of the well and make it very difficult for anyone to discover how to use magic from that source.. Archimonde was unable to access it off the bat, he had to try and destroy the tree to release the power, and got stopped in the process. Originally Posted by Razion
The world tree Voldrassil was not planted to reaffirm the night elves' commitment to Azeroth, but the druids effort to establish and proliferate nature paradise there - druids are different from the night elf nation. Druids deal with nature of the world on the global stage, this is not the role or purpose of the night elf race nor the Hyjal based nation during the Long vigil - their goals did align in terms of the watch, but they went about it in different ways.
The world tree Shaladrassil was grown to specifically enhance the connection tot he emerald dream, we can attribute Val'Sharah being reshaped to reflect the emerald dream itself as possible because of Shaladrassil.
Teldrassil is built to restore the immortality of the night elves lost by the depletion of Nordrassil's magical power, used to destroy Archimonde and the demonic forces of the Legion that returned. This was it's reason to be grown, it wasn't to reaffirm the night elves' commitment to the world, but Staghelm's ambition to lead the people as a druid (which really isn't the calling of a druid, but nothing to say a druid can't lead). whatever it's reasons to be built a world tree is very good for helping nature in the world.
The smaller dream portal trees, not quite world trees are used as gateways for the emerald dream, again their purpose is entirely nature related, not night elf nation/people related. Druidism is like a profession or calling that doesn't exist to serve the night elf people or night elf related, night elves do it to help and improve nature, - not the night elf nation or peoples.
Again as said before. The plantings were not for atonement - given what the meaning of the word is, a punishment or a difficult assignment like the Long vigil can e viewed as atonement as much as a duty, but the planting of the world trees has nothing to do with atoning - night elves already loved nature, it's part of their race as much as loving the arcane is, whether this fondness developed out of the need to reach the stars or basically just a thing very good people do - (i.e. they love nature, birds and bees alike - you know because they're just good people and it shows because they care for their environment - however the indication is that it is ab it more for the night elves, so maybe it started by wanting to reach closer to the stars, why did these ones develop a love for nature that surpasses that of other races, including their former troll race? Perhaps the stars are the inspiration.) Originally Posted by Razion
I do however agree that part of the main reason for planting those trees is to help heal the world. But remember they're magical trees.
I also agree the night elves didn't plant the trees to get closer to Elune - and if by Elune you mean the moon, then yes. I also believe that night elves quite early on realised that moon isn't actually Elune, but perhaps the symbol of the moon being Elune comes from them initially thinking so, until they got enlightened, or it could be the strange ability to access the moon's magic stemming from knowing this goddess that leads them ot this.
Who knows, we can only speculate.
I also don't think the trees have anything to do with the Long vigil explicitly. The purpose of the long vigil is a vigil - which means a watch, the tree is not their to watch, the night elves do the watching, by being vigilant (translates watchful) for the Legion - they do this by preventing the use of arcane magic which is the only way they believe the demons can be summoned, and destroying demonic activity wherever they see it, the satyrs were a major source of this. The trees aremostly for nature enhancements. The first one is fuelled by the well of eternity and is there not for nature, but to hide the well.
However it's proliferation is probably what gave them the idea to use moonwells to boost nature. Moonwells are arcane magical sources, whose waters come directly from the well of eternity itself. And those waters are very sacred tot he night elves. Those waters are the main thing they guard as they watch for the legion. Whiles the waters are the thing that can bring the legion, they are also sacred, because it is thee magical power that is responsible for the elves coming to be, and they believe it blessing or gift of the goddess, well they believe it sacred - which implies they view it as a gift of the goddess or something of the goddess. I really don't think they liked the level of abuse or over use of the well done by the palace. In War of the Ancients, many in the society are concerned by the increased activity of the well. they have no idea demons are being summoned at this time, but the way the text phrases it is that the Highborne, in the palace in particular have for a while being viewed as being reckless, flippant and not really respectful of this precious source.. this draws the ire of their kin - but the basis of this behaviour is rooted in their extreme arrogance, and that arrogance is the source of dislike of the Highborne, though jealous at being the Queen's favoured is the source of the jealousy.
The waters, like any potent source can become a powerful drug if you gorge yourself on it. Drugs though aren't good for you, at least recreational ones of if you use mind altering medication excessively. Same with food. Food is good for you, but what happens when you over eat? . The elves know magic isn't bad, it awakened them, made them who they were and they did many great things with it.. it seems they treated it with a level of sacredness, and deep reverence, being very very careful to handle this right, like it was something indeed divine. Originally Posted by Razion
But some of their leader got arrogant and cocky, lost that respect, started treating it like a commodity and too, and their excessive use created a deep level of addiction.
Illidan's main reason for restoring the well was to give his people their greatest gift back, one they could use to rebuild adn restore all that was lost.. his motivations are written quite clearly. We can infer it was also to give them a fighting chance against the legion when it returned, such power would be an immense force against the legion if it was used against them. Remember the first time round it aided them. HE also probably figured that if they controlled the well, there was no threat of the legion returning because they won't summon it. Or maybe he knew the Legion had other means regardless and that the well was also a necessity as well as a gift. Originally Posted by Razion
As for Kael'thas' words, you can tell the philosophy of the person who wrote them. But the warning is not using magic here, it's reaching too far.
Much of the story of the elves is centred around magic, and one of their biggest banes is addiction...This is established with the night elves' introduction, it is then used in the story of the blood elves. The northern night elves overcome their addiction after they abstain from magical practice.. but the other night elves still have this problem which we are showing the Shen'dralar and Nightborne - the problem gets understood and cured by the night elves in Legion.. however the blood elves apply a band aid of the light infusion of the Sunwell, rather than curing their addiction. But the band aid of the light serves as a balance for them.
But read my signature, it is a quote from Farodin, the bane of magic is the addictive property that really affected the elves, but his order's task was to solve this problem and fix it. Which he finally succeeds in Legion to save the Nightborne
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1. Those are night elf worgen you are talking about, the Gilenan ones are humans afflicted with a curse that transforms them into worgen, they don't swap places with Ralaar Fangfire's loot who are actually night elves who if ever made a race, would likely also have Elune worship. They are perfect for a worgen allied race and a forest elf pure sub race. Originally Posted by username993720
2. While Tauren do have Mu'sha it is still an assumption that this is Elune. Elune is not the moon, the night elves symbolise Elune with the moon, but she isn't a moon, the Tauren may actually worship the actual moon itself.
Druidism can teach them how to call arcane fire from moonlight, because it's a night elf based class, but we see no Mu'sha followers amongst the tauren, only An'she, they aren't a nocturnal race, and they only just recently learn to harness the power of the sun anyway, no mention is made of the moon.
You don't have to believe in Elune to use druidic moon and star spells. If Elune was the moon and you needed her to u se those spells, then how about the star spells which are a lot more than the moon ones in the night elf druid's arsenal?
3. While Elune worship may have significantly reduced because of the shield.. and because the priesthood left the city before the shield went up, to fight Azshara and the Legion, it is still the most likely religion there. Occuleth's fond recollection is proof that Elune is not hated but revered. And we see Night elf priestess statues I presumed may be shrines with flowers and and items which could be viewed as offerings on it, meaning a level of the spirituality is tied to that.
We don't fully know the Elune faith, but the moon isn't the only aspect of it, it involves the stars. The stars are the bigger focus anyway of the night elves as they are the children of hte stars.. the moon is attributed to the goddess, but we see their priests, druids and mages, including the Nightborne ones, wield more star magic than moon. which tells you the stars are part of it also.
Nightborne are not fragmented night elves they are night elven civilization culture 100%, Suramar up until that point was the headquarters of the order of Elune, and the Cathedral of Eternal night stands tall on the bridge that connected to the other half of the city, given their pride over their roots, and all things kaldorei, it's hard to imagine that Elune isn't the legion there, but it is possible.
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2021-07-13, 10:00 AM #29Dreadlord
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It's already vey strongly implied that Zandalari druids are worshipping Elune under a different name, I could see some of the Nightborne worshipping or starting to worship her after reconnecting with their brethren.
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2021-07-13, 10:09 AM #30Dreadlord
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Quilboar and Arakkoa would be good contenders.
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2021-07-13, 11:32 AM #31Banned
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Does Lunara have any follows in Zandalar? or is she just a record in the archives/temple of many gods similar to what the Romans had? Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight
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2021-07-13, 11:49 AM #32Dreadlord
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At least a portion of Zandalar druids follow her, though most Trolls view them as heretics for not worshiping a Loa. Originally Posted by Beloren
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2021-07-13, 12:02 PM #33Legendary!
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It doesn't matter. The curse was partially created by Elune. They are literally a half Goldrinn half Elune race. Originally Posted by ravenmoon
Elune is the moon and always has been. No need for philosophical contemplations.2. While Tauren do have Mu'sha it is still an assumption that this is Elune. Elune is not the moon, the night elves symbolise Elune with the moon, but she isn't a moon, the Tauren may actually worship the actual moon itself.
Druidism can teach them how to call arcane fire from moonlight, because it's a night elf based class, but we see no Mu'sha followers amongst the tauren, only An'she, they aren't a nocturnal race, and they only just recently learn to harness the power of the sun anyway, no mention is made of the moon.
You don't have to believe in Elune to use druidic moon and star spells. If Elune was the moon and you needed her to u se those spells, then how about the star spells which are a lot more than the moon ones in the night elf druid's arsenal?
I agree that they lean more towards the Sun, than the Moon:
"Sunwalkers were founded by Aponi Brightmane after a series of theological discussions with Tahu Sagewind about the importance of balancing out the night elven focus on moon-worship through reverence of light as part of their worship of the Earth Mother".
Therefore, they are less likely than the others i've suggested.
Druids can use more than just moon-based spells. Even the priestess of the moon uses Starfall and not Moonfall. The moon is part of a set of star spells.
"Unlike the night elves, the shal'dorei do not appear to worship Elune. They, instead, revere the stars themselves, without naming a specific divinity. Nightborne priests seem to call to the stars to channel their magic.For healing, the nightborne use chronomancy to rewind time, reversing the wounds rather than healing them in the traditional manner."3. While Elune worship may have significantly reduced because of the shield.. and because the priesthood left the city before the shield went up, to fight Azshara and the Legion, it is still the most likely religion there. Occuleth's fond recollection is proof that Elune is not hated but revered. And we see Night elf priestess statues I presumed may be shrines with flowers and and items which could be viewed as offerings on it, meaning a level of the spirituality is tied to that.
We don't fully know the Elune faith, but the moon isn't the only aspect of it, it involves the stars. The stars are the bigger focus anyway of the night elves as they are the children of hte stars.. the moon is attributed to the goddess, but we see their priests, druids and mages, including the Nightborne ones, wield more star magic than moon. which tells you the stars are part of it also.
Nightborne are not fragmented night elves they are night elven civilization culture 100%, Suramar up until that point was the headquarters of the order of Elune, and the Cathedral of Eternal night stands tall on the bridge that connected to the other half of the city, given their pride over their roots, and all things kaldorei, it's hard to imagine that Elune isn't the legion there, but it is possible.
But, they do have Star Augur Etraeus:
I'll give you that.
So, i guess you can scrap the Tauren and Highmountain Tauren off the list and put Nightborne instead.
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2021-07-13, 01:17 PM #34Banned
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I think @ravenmoon is right on this one. I know, the thing is blizzard has never associated them with Elune. Sure Mu'shua is in their legends, but there is no Tuaren sect or group that follow her at all. It's all Earthmother, and now the A'she sunwalkers. Originally Posted by username993720
If Mu'shua is Elune, they don't follow her, just acknowledge her as the daughter of the Earthmother - which is another reason why the mu'shua of the Tauren is not the Elune of the night elves.. although it's the same moon that is symbolised, I think it is actually attributed to different entities.
this is not uncommon. The problem I have is that it is clear to the night elves that Elune is not literally the moon, but the moon symbolises her. Whereas as Mu'shua is the moon like anicent nomadic and tribal cultures actually worhsip the suna nd the moon etc themselves.
I think it is quite possible that the night elves may at one point, but not since their awakening, their concepts of Elune supercede that of the moon itself.
But it could be exactly as you say. /shrug
Everything about the shal'dorei you see in Legion is kaldorei culturally - it's apre-sundeirng night elven society and culture preserved perfectly. I would say it is exactly the same as it was from pre-sundering, but that wouldn't be entirely accurate, it is exactly the same minus the priesthood. Originally Posted by username993720
"Unlike the night elves, the shal'dorei do not appear to worship Elune. They, instead, revere the stars themselves, without naming a specific divinity. Nightborne priests seem to call to the stars to channel their magic.For healing, the nightborne use chronomancy to rewind time, reversing the wounds rather than healing them in the traditional manner."
But, they do have Star Augur Etraeus:
I'll give you that.
So, i guess you can scrap the Tauren and Highmountain Tauren off the list and put Nightborne instead.
Star Augur Ertraeus is just an example of many a night elven way of doing things in their civilization that we get to witness via Suramar.. Suramar shows us greater detail of that aspect of night elven culture. We get to see a bit more of how their arcane influenced society acted.. so everything including Ertraeus and Tel'arn is an example of that culture continued on.
This is exactly what blizzard wanted to do. they said themselves "we wanted to show what a pristine night elf society was like if the night elves had continued using magic and not fallen into ruin. " Remember the Shen'dralar are an arcane society that went into ruin, so Suramar is one that hasn't.
So we get to see aspect of the night elves not seen before, how di star fascination work out in the cities? We know about hte moon Elune religion, htat was heavily described in a city context in WotA, and we've continued to see a lot of hte Order of leune, but what happened in all those astrological towers, Ertraeus gives an example.
It's all connected though.
Their magic did advance and they did develop chronomancy, so they improved in their knowledge and their bodies changed, but their culture didn't, their city , also in a finite space did not change, and their attitudes didn't either as we see. in fact legion is the change we witness in them.
As nightborne they are night centred, their is no real sky , no stars, no moon visible, even though the bodies are still there, I can imagine his art was limited and this part of their society rusty but not forgotten when the shield lifts.
Ertraeus has obviously quickly picked up fel and void in that short space of time, like all nightborne, no one was dealing with these powers till the legion came, so obviously they've made some fast progress in some areas, perhaps chronomancy helped them learn a little faster, seeing they can slow down time in bubbles to catch up. And if they can do that for that, they can also do that for Elune.
I'd like to hear both your thoughts here.
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2021-07-13, 03:31 PM #35Legendary!
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Mu'sha is Elune: Originally Posted by Beloren
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Elune (see the headline)
Elune and the Moon are interchangeable. No need to complicate things. Yes, she is not a sentient stellar body, but she is goddess that represents the Moon itself, just like how Azeroth represents the Titan and the planet.this is not uncommon. The problem I have is that it is clear to the night elves that Elune is not literally the moon, but the moon symbolises her. Whereas as Mu'shua is the moon like anicent nomadic and tribal cultures actually worhsip the suna nd the moon etc themselves.
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2021-07-13, 03:40 PM #36Mechagnome
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we already know that elune seems to be worshipped on multiple planets..also she has follower Zandalari trolls. this was added back in BfA. Originally Posted by Beloren
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2021-07-13, 03:58 PM #37Legendary!
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I, also, see the Sylvar being associated with Elune, once they become playable.
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2021-07-13, 05:19 PM #38Banned
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It is also quite possible the night elves had other religions related to the stars but these didn’t particularly survive the sundering with so many dead from the Legions invasion Originally Posted by username993720
Many sects and orders could have been totally wiped out.
The Order of Elune was the biggest but it may not have been the only, and the Nightborne in Suramar have remnants of other sects.
But it could also be there are many facets to the original Elune order. Including star worship and the detail is simply not given by Blizz because face it, blizz haven’t really gone into detail about Elune’s order properly as a religion. Hell we almost never see a Moon priestess let alone not seen one in offenders action since WC3.
I would love to really see how the Order of Elune operated in a full night elf society.
Now the Nightborne are in the horde and they have Moon Priestesses with them from a
7.0/1, would be nice to see that development.
Almost like they use the Nightborne to show night elf civilisation properly while they use the Kaldorei to show night elf forest culture. With the priesthood operating in both connecting the two.
I know@Ravenmoon does t want this and feels all aspects of the night elves need to be silly shown on the Kaldorei first and established. Which I get that he wants the Kaldorei’s full features and all their parts available to the group that still remains fully Kaldorei.
I get that. Their is a charm to that, but it could also work by using the Nightborne more for this so they aren’t left behind. Or left unused.
I mean they will feel very Kaldorei if blizzard show broken isle night elves and Moonguard fully mixed with them and refer to the customs as Kaldorei - Shal’dorei being more like Highborne label even though it is a Kaldorei race. That might work.
Bottom line it is to see Elune or their religion better. Suramar I think is an excellent setting.
But maybe he is right that it would have worked perfectly if they had been with the night elves. But I still maintain they can still be with night elves in the broken isles either joining the Nightborne or blizzard writing that the elves in Suramar don’t really care about faction,
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Wo t they worship the Winter Queen. Unless Elune is a first one that made them. But winter queen says my sister referring to Elune Originally Posted by username993720
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2021-07-13, 09:17 PM #39Legendary!
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Tyrande, my friend, is a Priestess of the Moon. Originally Posted by Beloren
1. She is Elune's sister (probably the Blue Child -another smaller moon).Wo t they worship the Winter Queen. Unless Elune is a first one that made them. But winter queen says my sister referring to Elune
2. Ardenweald looks very starry:
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2021-07-14, 09:33 AM #40Banned
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Malfurion is a Druid but you see many other night elf druids doing Druid magic. Originally Posted by username993720
Tyrande, my friend, is a Priestess of the Moon.
1. She is Elune's sister (probably the Blue Child -another smaller moon).
2. Ardenweald looks very starry:
Illidan is a night elf demon Hunter but you see many other night elf demon hunters doing demon Hunter stuff
Azshara is/was a night elf Mage and we see many night elf mages doing Mage stuff.
So where are the other Priesresses of the moon doing their magic ? Last time I saw a priestsss outside Tyrande use magic in battle was Wc3.
It took toll Legion to see wardens.
@macd is correct. Blizzard really haven’t shown much of the night elves over the year. Preferring to mainly show druids and sentinels. The rest : mages, demon hunters, wardens and hunters but especially Moon Priestesses have been poorly shown.
@ravenmoon is also right, the alliance night elves have had the worse showing of the things night elves are best at.
When they are incredible they are either neutral or have come to us.
However, night elves are not the only race blizzard does this with. In fact to be honest, humans, orca and ins was d are the on LG races blizzard doesn’t do this too.
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Very int as eying idea of the Winter Queen is the blue child. Never occurred to me.
But while interesting. It doesn’t correlate. The winter queen is part of the death Pantheon and related to the eternity of the afterlife. She would or have no symposium in the waking world.
You are right about Mu’shya and Raven is wrong. But he is right that Elune is not literally the moon.
The entity called the goddess is not the actual moon. The moon may be called Elune and worshipped as Mu’shua. But I’m sure the elves don’t think the actual entity is literally the moon but release the moon is symbolic of her.
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