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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    Don't be disingenuous. None of the in game story events focused on faction conflict in TBC or LK. How many cutscenes or quests focused on the faction war in LK? The Garrosh vs Varian cutscene and a few quests in Icecrown and Grizzly Hills? How many focused on the faction war in BFA? Hundreds of quests and the vast majority of cutscenes.

    Wow is at its best when the faction conflict is at most way way in the background.
    I will agree with you that the faction conflict in LK was one of the better instances of it, but I disagree that it was way in the background. It's present right at the beginning of the zones. Gryphon riders are attacking the Horde in Howling Fjord. Taunka are sending Horde adventurers against the gnomes in Borean Tundra. Two raids featured faction-based boss fights. Varian invades a Horde city and declares war. This is in addition to the PvP zone, PvP event in Grizzly Hills, two arenas, and two battlegrounds that were introduced. I thought it was a nice way of illustrating the faction conflict without requiring it to dominate the narrative.

  2. #222
    op: maybe the writers just suck?

    shills: that can't possibly be it!

    covenant campaign chapter 4: lets listen to a message about keeping the sigil safe, remove it from the safe space, and then bring it directly into a prison ran by the jailer. it's fool proof!

    op: you were saying?

  3. #223
    I think the writers in Blizzard had a lot of limitations, about the ideas they can share and implement.

    Even Metzen had a lot of limitations with his original story for Wings of Liberty (Starcraft 2).

  4. #224
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethas View Post
    Because shes been writing housewifes romance books for her entire career. She can’t comprehend what high fantasy is and what character merits are usually portrayed in there.
    Have you actually gone through any of her work? Because almost all of it is high fantasy or sci-fi working on things like starwars star stek starcraft and a crap ton of wow books dating back to 2001.

    if these kind of books are house wife romance to you then things sure have changed from the shirtless Spanish men books I used to see at book stores.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-07-14 at 04:31 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    You know what the true casualty of that is? WoD zones were actually gorgeous. Draenor was freaking beautiful. But Blizzard absolutely tanked that expac and I spent no time in it.
    It's true. The setting is both massive, probably the biggest continent they'd made in a while before and especially since and it was very detailed. Nevermind the visual alone, they had properly sat down to sort out how it works internally and who these races actually were. It's a damn shame.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's true. The setting is both massive, probably the biggest continent they'd made in a while before and especially since and it was very detailed. Nevermind the visual alone, they had properly sat down to sort out how it works internally and who these races actually were. It's a damn shame.
    Indeed if we don't take in account the time travel stuff and one Burning Legion for all timelines nonsense, WOD had lots of potential and good ideas such as Draenor being a very beautiful, varied, interesting and dangerous planet at the same time, the Arakkoas and Ogres having very rich and unique cultures, the Breakers and Primals' feud, the Botanis being an interesting plant counterpart to Orcs, Ogres having anti-magic techniques, etc...

    But while there were some great short stories such as Hellscream and Code of Rule, the execution in the game was really disappointing, with the story being poor and Blizzard scrapping contents that were present in the Alpha or in development that could have made the expansion much better.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    Why do you say that? The story got way way worse when it started focusing on faction conflict. Cata and MoP were pure faction conflict. WoD was predicated on MoP's story. Legion was okay-ish. BFA was more faction conflict and Shadowlands is a continuation of BFA.

    The only expansions where the story was slightly better than dogshit were TBC, LK and Legion. All 3 of those were expansions where the faction conflict was practically nonexistent.

    The expansions that were the worst story wise were the Alliance vs Horde expansions, (Cata, MoP, BFA.) or the expansions that were sequels to Alliance vs Horde expansions, (WoD, Shadowlands.)

    So why do you think the game is gonna be better with a focus on the storytelling style of the bad expansions, but it would somehow be worse with focusing on the storytelling style of the good expansions?
    I would disagree with this statement.
    TBC is well regarded, for it's defining part in the games identity and fixing a lot of the classes/specs and general jankyness of Vanilla. Not the story. And MoP is generally regarded as one of the best expansions despite the shaky start. Raids were good, worldbuilding was generally solid and it has portrayed the faction war well, outside the dud of Garrosh scapegoat and key story elements being gated for the War Crimes novel.(Neither of which are exactly writer level issues) While WotLK saw the war officially declared, with Aliance and Horde being well at each other's throats, even when a 3rd party kept them from fighting.


    The thing BfA uniquely botched is that they right away took the side of the Alliance, as the good. righteous, valiant, morally infallible background foliage just like their god emperor Blanduin, while the Horde is stuck achieving nothing of consequence past the prepatch and guiltmongering nonsense laid on so heavily it's just cringe, until the inevitable 8.2.5, which saw the mmo equivalent of looking forward, but not where you step stumbling and falling straight on your face, into a ditch.

    (WoD suffered from being an orc themed expansion, where they dropped entire zones, because focus groups thought there are too many orcs)

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    All I ask is that you acknowledge that the enigmatic Garrosh was the first one to overcome the shadow's whispers. Then I will be satisfied.
    He went from a proud Orc warrior who depended on his own strength and wits, to some craven that had to eat an old void entity heart to acquire power that was never his.
    RETH

  9. #229
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Being a tyrant and a hothead isn't mutually exclusive with being a loser - history is replete with examples of tyrants who lose everything.

    Garrosh had few decisive victories, many defeats, and his stupidity ultimately led to his capture, exile, and death on a sad replica of his homeworld. All in all, Garrosh was a loser of epic proportions.
    That is again, tons of bias against him, you can't look on the horde pre-cata and the horde pre-mop and say he only had "few victories and many defeats"

    What is his stupidity? because he lost when two fo the faction united against him? it is stupid to almost win and only lose by aunusual alliance?

    If you are saying of all people garrosh was the "loser of epic proportions" then wush, other characters are rly in a bad spot, cause not many in wow had the same amount of wins than win.

    The Horde victories against the LK weren't any of Garrosh's doing. He may have helped carve out Warsong Hold in Borean Tundra, but he doesn't appear anywhere else or do anything else of note in Northrend, aside from walking in Thrall's shadow and complaining about things.
    How it is not? Thrall send him to fight the Lich king, everything the horde did there was because of him and saurfang co-leading the horde forces, the only thing you can take out from his credit is howling fjord and above because it was forsaken.

    Garrosh didn't enjoy the same majority of support as Sylvanas apparently did in BfA - in fact, he was required to threaten the Horde's people with his fanatical Kor'kron in order to enforce his war against the Alliance as per Tides of War. Garrosh's troops might have cheered it, but history has shown that Theramore was essentially the first step of Garrosh's eventual downfall and humiliation at MoP's close.
    Again, read the book, the entire arm cheered by Garrosh, vol'jin said the people loved him, the people, supported him, not the leaders, Let slide the fact that the garbage writing made all of then support sylvanus and not him.

    His downfall was because of the leaders who were against him, that spread towards the people as well, he start grinding then(like the blood elves) and his popularity decrease.

    As I said, he's far from alone in that as well. Garrosh himself was infused with Old God power during the Siege of Orgrimmar.
    that was for the raid and unlike varian he lost

    Except they weren't, and the Alliance even took back Northwatch for good measure - an engagement in which Garrosh relied on Dark Shamanism to try to win in a further perversion of Orcish tradition (which he hypocritically claimed to cherish).
    They weren't able to because Baine warned Jaina.

    Garrosh outright said that he would have done the same had the thought occurred to him, basically putting him on the same level as the Twilight's Hammer - Warchief he may have been but he deserved nothing.
    But he didn't, words do not make people guilty for something they dind't.

    The advisors with their "you DeSeRvE nO ReSPeCt" because eh was attacking the enemy, is what make him go against then

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    (WoD suffered from being an orc themed expansion, where they dropped entire zones, because focus groups thought there are too many orcs)
    It's funny because we still have 6 orc sounds and a lot of clans that don't matter in the end.
    But we don't have any Warden sounds yet. We have a Raid but no level sound. That it is a faction that was in almost all the expansions and we know little and nothing about them.

  11. #231
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    What is his stupidity? because he lost when two fo the faction united against him? it is stupid to almost win and only lose by aunusual alliance?
    Well, let's break down a brief list of Garrosh's many blunders and boneheaded decisions during his pre-Cata and Cata tenure:

    1.) He almost immediately began to drive a wedge in the Horde's nation-states, belittling and demeaning everyone aside from the Orcs and Tauren by segregating Orgrimmar's districts.

    2.) With his epic mishandling of the duel with Cairne and subsequent refusal to aid Baine with a succession crisis he was complicit, he similarly damaged relations with the Tauren, the Horde's most personally powerful military contributors and long-time backers.

    3.) On a more personal level, he ostracized his closest advisors in flagrant disregard to his predecessor's request - severely hamstringing his own cabinet. This is doubly dumb in light of Garrosh's own recognition to Thrall that he wasn't ready for the position of Warchief in the first place (as per The Shattering). Basically like being reticent to enter a dangerous cavern while spelunking, but then also making the decision to ditch your supplies and first aid equipment at the cave's mouth too.

    4.) He completely bungled the invasion of Gilneas, resulting in a tactical victory for the Alliance and pushing the nation right back into the Alliance's fold (with the Gilneans now being made all the more potent by becoming tractable Worgen). He failed to maintain a foothold on the land, failed to establish a large-scale Horde port of call in the Eastern Kingdoms, and left the kingdom a battleground that smolders to this day.

    5.) He failed to achieve victory in Ashenvale, repulsed by the Alliance forces despite his reckless use of enslaved Magnataur as living siege engines.

    6.) He failed to capture Northwatch, repulsed by the Alliance forces despite his reckless use of enslaved elementals and Dark Shamanism.

    7.) He failed to secure the Barrens, which continue to be a contested battleground to the current day.

    The list could go on and on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    How it is not? Thrall send him to fight the Lich king, everything the horde did there was because of him and saurfang co-leading the horde forces, the only thing you can take out from his credit is howling fjord and above because it was forsaken.
    There's no evidence of Garrosh or Saurfang doing anything of note outside the Borean Tundra. In point of fact, the only military action we see Garrosh involved in outside of the Borean Tundra is a dressing-down of Korm Blackscar, which was prompted by Thrall's command. The only real action we see Garrosh involved in is defending Warsong Hold from a few Nerubians. And that's when he wasn't trying to start yet another war with the Alliance, only to be kept in check by Saurfang.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Again, read the book, the entire arm cheered by Garrosh, vol'jin said the people loved him, the people, supported him, not the leaders, Let slide the fact that the garbage writing made all of then support sylvanus and not him.
    No one ever said Garrosh didn't have good PR, and it wouldn't be the first time an idiot leader enjoyed popular support until they were revealed as incompetent and cast down accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    His downfall was because of the leaders who were against him, that spread towards the people as well, he start grinding then(like the blood elves) and his popularity decrease.
    Agreed, but the leaders being against him and his loss of support was all down to decisions he made as Warchief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that was for the raid and unlike varian he lost
    A distinction without a difference. He loses a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    They weren't able to because Baine warned Jaina.
    Again, not of consequence - and it was Garrosh's own bungling that put Baine in that position in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    But he didn't, words do not make people guilty for something they dind't.

    The advisors with their "you DeSeRvE nO ReSPeCt" because eh was attacking the enemy, is what make him go against then
    Words matter, especially when you're talking to a co-leader who thinks he just lost someone near and dear to his heart. It was the start of Garrosh's pattern of reckless irresponsibility and his penchant for arrogant bluster that eventually cost him his kingdom, then his life.

    War with the Alliance has cost the Horde nearly everything in every occasion - there comes a point in which a wise leader might recognize that maybe a separate peace is a better idea than endless war followed by total defeat.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #232
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Well, let's break down a brief list of Garrosh's many blunders and boneheaded decisions during his pre-Cata and Cata tenure:

    1.) He almost immediately began to drive a wedge in the Horde's nation-states, belittling and demeaning everyone aside from the Orcs and Tauren by segregating Orgrimmar's districts.
    that is not right, he only start to do that in MOP, the only thing he did similar was to put the trolls in lower places in the orgrimamr restruturation, but even that had a reason, because trolls didn't help as much in nortrend, unlike taurens who Garrosh liked.
    2.) With his epic mishandling of the duel with Cairne and subsequent refusal to aid Baine with a succession crisis he was complicit, he similarly damaged relations with the Tauren, the Horde's most personally powerful military contributors and long-time backers.
    Still amuses me how you want to strip Cairne from all the Baine and put on his hands, when Cairne himself invoked the Mak'gora, thus, he enver refused to aid Baine, Baine was the one to not ask his help.

    But i agree it was a mistake, If he had backed up Maghata the taurens would be ina better shape with a better leader.
    3.) On a more personal level, he ostracized his closest advisors in flagrant disregard to his predecessor's request - severely hamstringing his own cabinet.
    Ah yes, you mean the adivors who said he was going to kill him? or the ones who keep arguing all his moves?
    4.) He completely bungled the invasion of Gilneas, resulting in a tactical victory for the Alliance and pushing the nation right back into the Alliance's fold (with the Gilneans now being made all the more potent by becoming tractable Worgen). He failed to maintain a foothold on the land, failed to establish a large-scale Horde port of call in the Eastern Kingdoms, and left the kingdom a battleground that smolders to this day.
    You wanna put the horde loss in guilneas on him, when Sylvanas explicit took controll over him in the conquest?

    5.) He failed to achieve victory in Ashenvale, repulsed by the Alliance forces despite his reckless use of enslaved Magnataur as living siege engines.
    Right, because of a deus ex machina help of old god infused Varian.
    6.) He failed to capture Northwatch, repulsed by the Alliance forces despite his reckless use of enslaved elementals and Dark Shamanism.
    Im sorry? pretty sure nortwatch hold only came back to alliance after SoO
    7.) He failed to secure the Barrens, which continue to be a contested battleground to the current day.
    thanks to Baine and his refusal toa ttack back.

    Detal that most of those things was due to theramore backing up the alliance forces.

    The list could go on and on.
    Sure, ignoring his archeivemnts and focusing on his failures things went too easy, im sure we can make a worse list from Varian, Thrall and others, like Sylvanus


    There's no evidence of Garrosh or Saurfang doing anything of note outside the Borean Tundra.
    Sure, isn't like the hellscream offsensive was ltierally in the final raid.

    He was the hero of the war in nrtrend and why the people liked him


    No one ever said Garrosh didn't have good PR, and it wouldn't be the first time an idiot leader enjoyed popular support until they were revealed as incompetent and cast down accordingly.
    the point yous aid he didn't had support, he had it, and only lost because the leaders who clashed with him.
    Agreed, but the leaders being against him and his loss of support was all down to decisions he made as Warchief.

    All of his decisions back in cata were justified and made sense, fighting to win a way the enemy started, thats why him losing support was compltly nonsensical,

    A distinction without a difference. He loses a lot.
    a distinction that made totall difference

    one is not a deus ex machina power. One is mensurable, you can see it happening and why, there is downsides, and even with that didn't give victory.

    Again, not of consequence - and it was Garrosh's own bungling that put Baine in that position in the first place.
    IAgain, fi he was able to conquer, no bomb would be encessary, witht he warning conquering was not possible, the bomb was required.

    BaGarrosh on bungling that made Baine betray his faction?
    Words matter, especially when you're talking to a co-leader who thinks he just lost someone near and dear to his heart. It was the start of Garrosh's pattern of reckless irresponsibility and his penchant for arrogant bluster that eventually cost him his kingdom, then his life
    .

    He was not a co-leader, he was his leader, Cainre was int he wrong in the first palce to bark in his room and acuse him in the first place.

    War with the Alliance has cost the Horde nearly everything in every occasion - there comes a point in which a wise leader might recognize that maybe a separate peace is a better idea than endless war followed by total defeat.
    If there was no war the horde would be annihilated back then, you clearly are not realizing the bad shape the horde was before him and how he made ita super power to live on his own, he lost in some places but the horde was far more weak than the alliance in the first place, his achievements made the horde gain territory, resources and manpower and you are greatly undermining what he did just because he was "a tyranical dick"

  13. #233
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is not right, he only start to do that in MOP, the only thing he did similar was to put the trolls in lower places in the orgrimamr restruturation, but even that had a reason, because trolls didn't help as much in nortrend, unlike taurens who Garrosh liked.
    So basically you're trying to say I'm wrong by explaining how I'm right? All of the Horde was represented in Northrend, Garrosh's racist tendencies aside. His prejudices also extended to the Blood Elves who definitely major players in the Northrend campaign, especially with giving the Horde access to Dalaran via the Sunreavers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Still amuses me how you want to strip Cairne from all the Baine and put on his hands, when Cairne himself invoked the Mak'gora, thus, he enver refused to aid Baine, Baine was the one to not ask his help.
    Cairne had due cause for issuing Mak'gora, as he recognized the growing danger of the out-of-control Garrosh early on. Baine shouldn't have needed to "ask for help," either; Garrosh knew what Magatha had done and what she planned. His response was just to refuse her request for aid in committing the coup in Thunder Bluff. As he does with the Gilneans, he might as well have pushed the Tauren into the arms of the Alliance himself. A fair measure of the blame for Baine's later predicament concerning his debt to Jaina Proudmoore rests on the shoulders of Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    But i agree it was a mistake, If he had backed up Maghata the taurens would be ina better shape with a better leader.
    So instead of one genocidal tyrant, you would have two? That's not a good thing for the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Ah yes, you mean the adivors who said he was going to kill him? or the ones who keep arguing all his moves?
    It's the job of advisors to point out issues and mistakes. Garrosh explicitly made it clear to Thrall before his ascent to the position of Warchief that he was unready - he should've at least listened to his advisors' words as opposed to being obstinate and arrogant. The rift between Vol'jin and Garrosh was the product of Garrosh's blunders and mismanagement, as well; it wasn't as if Vol'jin threatened him out of the blue. Cairne, too, had a grudging respect for Garrosh in the beginning - before Garrosh's caustic personality eroded that into resentment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You wanna put the horde loss in guilneas on him, when Sylvanas explicit took controll over him in the conquest?
    Garrosh is the Warchief, and he put Sylvanas in command himself - responsibility flows from the top, especially when you have an absolute leader like the Warchief. The Horde wouldn't have made the progress it did in Gilneas had Sylvanas not also ignored Garrosh's command. We see in Edge of Night what the result would've been had Garrosh remained in active command (e.g. the destruction of the Forsaken and loss of Lordaeron itself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Right, because of a deus ex machina help of old god infused Varian.
    Do you mean "Old God-infused Garrosh?" Varian was empowered by a Wild God. WoW is full of deus ex machina moments in any case, that's a meaningless distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Im sorry? pretty sure nortwatch hold only came back to alliance after SoO
    Varian repels the Horde from Northwatch in Tides of War. It was re-fortified later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    thanks to Baine and his refusal toa ttack back.

    Detal that most of those things was due to theramore backing up the alliance forces.
    Again, responsibility flows from the top. Trying to pin the blame on Garrosh's subordinates only highlights what a weak leader Garrosh actually was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Sure, ignoring his archeivemnts and focusing on his failures things went too easy, im sure we can make a worse list from Varian, Thrall and others, like Sylvanus
    When your achievements are few and your failures many, it is easy to focus on the latter over the former. The rest is just whataboutism that isn't germane to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Sure, isn't like the hellscream offsensive was ltierally in the final raid.

    He was the hero of the war in nrtrend and why the people liked him
    Saurfang was leading the Warsong Offensive at Icecrown Citadel, not Garrosh. No one is saying he wasn't a hero of the Northrend campaign, either; merely that his heroism is largely mimetic in nature and swiftly squandered and undercut by his many bad decisions later. Garrosh ascended on a tide of nepotism and swiftly fell due to his own incompetence and vainglory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the point yous aid he didn't had support, he had it, and only lost because the leaders who clashed with him.
    He enjoyed support early on, sure, *very* early on. He started to lose it just as quickly though, beginning with his actions in Ashenvale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    All of his decisions back in cata were justified and made sense, fighting to win a way the enemy started, thats why him losing support was compltly nonsensical
    Given that we now know of Sylvanas' complicity in the Wrathgate incident, I would say that it wasn't a war the enemy started at all. Varian declared war, sure; but he was incited by the Forsaken's horrific actions at the Wrathgate - that would make the start of the faction infighting in WotLK the Horde's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He was not a co-leader, he was his leader, Cainre was int he wrong in the first palce to bark in his room and acuse him in the first place.
    Cairne was justified in what he felt, and Garrosh made that clear when he put himself on the same moral footing as the Twilight's Hammer through his arrogant posturing. Even though Hamuul managed to survive other Horde Druids died in the Twilight's Hammer's attack on the conclave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If there was no war the horde would be annihilated back then, you clearly are not realizing the bad shape the horde was before him and how he made ita super power to live on his own, he lost in some places but the horde was far more weak than the alliance in the first place, his achievements made the horde gain territory, resources and manpower and you are greatly undermining what he did just because he was "a tyranical dick"
    Garrosh didn't make it a "superpower" by any means - he left the Horde fractured and depleted, at the mercy of Varian and the Alliance who opted to take the high road and let the Horde rebuild under a new leader. What is the point of acquiring territory and resources only to provoke a civil war within your own faction leading to your own exile? I don't feel I'm undermining anything about Garrosh, because Garrosh is ultimately defined by abject failure. He failed as a Warchief, he failed as Chieftain of the Warsong on AU Draenor. He failed with the Iron Horde, and he was condemned to WoW's version of hell due to his hubris.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #234
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong. But Varock did not agree to cause harm. The plan was to take hostages so that the Alliance cannot attack them.
    The one causing a wound was Sylvanas idae.

    But of course it can always be that the Horde is seen as so evil by writers that it can start a war just to inflict damage.
    Varok also gave the green light to have the people in Astanaar to be massacred including civilians; and before Teldrassil: Astranaar, Silverwing Refuge, Auberdine, and Lor'danel were all down to the last civilian and the Horde didn't stop there; they also hunted down fleeing civilians in Azuremyst Isle
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by KainneAbsolute View Post
    I think the writers in Blizzard had a lot of limitations, about the ideas they can share and implement.

    Even Metzen had a lot of limitations with his original story for Wings of Liberty (Starcraft 2).
    That’s because SC2 story is legit franchise killing bad

    The gameplay is phenomenal but the whole Kerrigan arc is nauseatingly bad writing

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Saurfang was leading the Warsong Offensive at Icecrown Citadel, not Garrosh. No one is saying he wasn't a hero of the Northrend campaign, either; merely that his heroism is largely mimetic in nature and swiftly squandered and undercut by his many bad decisions later. Garrosh ascended on a tide of nepotism and swiftly fell due to his own incompetence and vainglory.
    This is possibly the best short summary I have ever seen of the character.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Varok also gave the green light to have the people in Astanaar to be massacred including civilians; and before Teldrassil: Astranaar, Silverwing Refuge, Auberdine, and Lor'danel were all down to the last civilian and the Horde didn't stop there; they also hunted down fleeing civilians in Azuremyst Isle
    Thanks. I already knew XD. Apart from that, the novels make it clear that he is fighting against civilians.

    Almost every life Varock takes is that of a civilian. Then blizzard is surprised why Horde Players don't want it. Cowardly orc without honor.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Thanks. I already knew XD. Apart from that, the novels make it clear that he is fighting against civilians.

    Almost every life Varock takes is that of a civilian. Then blizzard is surprised why Horde Players don't want it. Cowardly orc without honor.
    Blizzard has a real problem at making Horde characters who are supposed to be reasonnable, honorable, or sympathetic, they are either big hypocrites who defend their own people too little or commited atrocities against the Alliance and suddently find back their conscience far later after when they should have had it, or who bite the hand of the ones who helped or saved them.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    I stumbled upon this interview from Christie Golden upon characters like Garrosh and Jaina. It perfectly shows on what the writers think is so out of touch with the portrayal ingame.

    Full interview: https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-21-...ie-golden.html



    Apparently Garrosh has a weak core, and his opinions change on the moment. He is not headstrong and stubborn. He is very weak and influenceable.

    Where as Jaina:



    Yes, as you see, Jaina has a very strong core. She does not change moods or opinion as often.

    This was an interview during MoP.
    This was during a time where Jaina had to be stopped from flooding Orgrimmar, where she murdered innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
    This was "stable Jaina" that ruined peace talks between the Alliance and the Blood Elves.

    And yeah, at that time we didn't know how headstrong Garrosh was going to be. But he doesn't seem very weak considering his last cinematic.

    This perfectly portrays how out of touch some writers are. How does this even happen? Just how?
    Maybe Blizzard needs to come to face with how delusional the writers are with the portrayal of characters presented ingame.

    This is so fucking bad.
    Was agreeing until innocent blood elves. They were not innocent. They did help garrosh smuggle the bell and they did betray the kirin tor with that action.
    Killing them all might've been an over reaction, but they themselves should have led the charge to find the guilty parties. Didn't happen, so consequences were met. Smuggling the bell led to deaths. They were not innocent.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-07-15 at 01:29 PM.

  20. #240
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Blizzard has a real problem at making Horde characters who are supposed to be reasonnable, honorable, or sympathetic, they are either big hypocrites who defend their own people too little or commited atrocities against the Alliance and suddently find back their conscience far later after when they should have had it, or who bite the hand of the ones who helped or saved them.
    I really preferred if the Alliance were the bad guys and the Horde were the good guys (save for the Forsaken and Blood Elves)

    the Warcraft 3 to WotLK Horde accepts anyone regardless of race, skin color, and gender while the Alliance are self-righteous xenophobic racists that will slaughter anyone that doesn't look like a human - as it was in Warcraft 3
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

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