Maybe the problem are the writers

[The Stormbringer]

They only use their better writers, or let them use their full skills, for these short stories it would seem.

That one story alone reinvigorated my love for the Lorewalkers, and made them even cooler than before. Hell, it even made me begrudgingly respect Gallywix just a little.

And now I really miss MoP.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The restoration of Stromgarde under Danath Trollbane's leadership and failed Horde attempt to prevent it, which should have seen the Forsaken instead of the Orcs fighting humans, should have happened at the end of Cataclysm or during MOP.

Also Kul Tiras and Zandalar should have joined the Alliance and the Horde earlier, with the Zandalari at last joining while Vol'jin was warchief and with him having established a real relationship with the Zandalari and Rastakhan.

[Syegfryed]

So basically you're trying to say I'm wrong by explaining how I'm right?

no, im saying you are wrong with the timeline.

Cairne had due cause for issuing Mak'gora,

he didn't, he was just mad at the accident and though it was him, there was no danger when fighting a way other people brough upou you.

as he recognized the growing danger of the out-of-control Garrosh early on. Baine shouldn't have needed to "ask for help," either; Garrosh knew what Magatha had done and what she planned. His response was just to refuse her request for aid in committing the coup in Thunder Bluff. As he does with the Gilneans, he might as well have pushed the Tauren into the arms of the Alliance himself. A fair measure of the blame for Baine's later predicament concerning his debt to Jaina Proudmoore rests on the shoulders of Garrosh.

Again, It was bain who didn't ask for his help and support.

Yes, the taurens would sure go for the alliance with the dwarves and humans bombing their tribes and stealing their land, im sure Baine would gladly give his lands tot he alliance but i expect an rebelion from the tauren before that.

So instead of one genocidal tyrant, you would have two? That's not a good thing for the Horde.

anyone who is against the alliance is a genocidal tyrant? even when fighting for their people a way that they started?

It's the job of advisors to point out issues and mistakes.

ITs not the job of the adviors to defy, undermine and treat to kill him, do that in any job and you are out

Garrosh is the Warchief, and he put Sylvanas in command himself - responsibility flows from the top,

No, she asked for it, the blame is on her.

Varian repels the Horde from Northwatch in Tides of War. It was re-fortified later on.

pretty sure they took northwatch hold before going for theramore, it was retooked after SoO, unless there was another alliance taking and horde taking back in between.

Again, responsibility flows from the top. Trying to pin the blame on Garrosh's subordinates only highlights what a weak leader Garrosh actually was.

So, the traitors are Garrosh to blaime, that is sure a hell of a spin.

When your achievements are few and your failures many, it is easy to focus on the latter over the former. The rest is just whataboutism that isn't germane to the discussion.

His archevemnts are nto few neither his failures that many.

Saurfang was leading the Warsong Offensive at Icecrown Citadel, not Garrosh.

No, it was Garrosh, thats why Saurfang fights on it as a soldier

He enjoyed support early on, sure, *very* early on. He started to lose it just as quickly though, beginning with his actions in Ashenvale.

The support was only lost in MOP.

Given that we now know of Sylvanas' complicity in the Wrathgate incident, I would say that it wasn't a war the enemy started at all. Varian declared war, sure; but he was incited by the Forsaken's horrific actions at the Wrathgate - that would make the start of the faction infighting in WotLK the Horde's fault.

Varian gave two shits about the forsakena ctions ar the wrathgate and you know thats why focused on kalindor and the orcs, not in the forsaken

And now that is also Horde fault, and of course that msut be Garrosh fault somehow

Be careful tha tnow your bias is showing.

Cairne was justified in what he felt,

There wa sno justification since his accusations and were completely passional and without proof.

Garrosh didn't make it a "superpower" by any means - he left the Horde fractured and depleted, at the mercy of Varian and the Alliance who opted to take the high road and let the Horde rebuild under a new leader.

What? you are just totally wrong, again.

youa re also completly ignoring and messing up witht he timeline.

The horde was in jeopardy back in wtLCK, and Garrosh made it a super power in cataclysm to stand against the alliance.

Even aftr MOP The horde was still strong enough to defy the alliance, if you think "they were at his mercy" you are delusional

The bfA victories were also made possible because of his actions, a lot of things the horde use today was because of him, the city itself, even the place down orgrimmar was useful, his weaponry , everything he did was useful, donwplaying what he did just because he was mean, bald and ugly is just absurd.

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Also Kul Tiras and Zandalar should have joined the Alliance and the Horde earlier, with the Zandalari at last joining while Vol'jin was warchief and with him having established a real relationship with the Zandalari and Rastakhan.

Bfa will always be one of the most horrendous crimes on the lore, darkspear completely irrelevant from zandalar, vol'jin killed to give spotlight to a dead elf, and donwplayed to a gold ghost who gives two shits about the horde.

[Merin]

The writing is flat out miserable and the game hasn't seen meaningful development for about six years. All the updates for modern WoW have become purely temporary, seasonal content.

Maybe the problems are shitty threads like this. Garrosh DID have a weak core, he was an absolute wreck when we met him in outlands. I mean even now hes just a petty person, he literally kamikaze'd his soul to an already down foe out of MERE SPITE.

What do you think you're playing? Stop wheeling out the psychiatrist chairs for WARCRAFT characters. A bulk of the problems with modern nerd entertainment is that certain splinters of us dweebs grew up feeling self important and can't just write things to their strengths/purposes anymore because thats "beneath them".

It is not possible to take a character like Sylvanas or Garrosh and turn them into a well nuanced, tragic victim. They are amusing cartoon stereotypes. You write for them in the moment or you make a new product

[Aucald]

--- snip ---

As I figured, this is just going to devolve into a back and forth with no real conclusion as you try to rebut points. Trying to lionize Garrosh by minimizing or recontextualizing his failures isn't a winning gambit given his conclusion - we know exactly what Garrosh did, and where he ultimately ended up. Magatha and Garrosh weren't genocidal tyrants solely because they "opposed the Alliance," it was due to how they went about it. Magatha was a xenophobic despot and Tauren supremacist, whereas Garrosh was pretty much the same except for the Orcs. Garrosh even planned to reperpetrate the Old Horde's original sin of slaughtering the Draenei on AU Draenor for no real reason, given his grievance was with Azeroth. That's what kind of a maniac Garrosh was at his core. Garrosh treated any kind of criticism as insubordination, which is a marquee sign of a weak and feckless leader - an inability to accept being called out or held to account. You can feel free to check Chronicle Vol. 3 or WoWPedia if you want to confirm my sources - I did when I made them, after all, and sourced the material they came from. Beyond unsupported bias, you're basically just saying "nuh uh" and "you're wrong" without evidence or citation to back it up.

As I don't think there's any real headway to be had and we're already off-topic, this is my last reply on this particular tangent in the thread.

[sighy]

The writing is flat out miserable and the game hasn't seen meaningful development for about six years. All the updates for modern WoW have become purely temporary, seasonal content.



What do you think you're playing? Stop wheeling out the psychiatrist chairs for WARCRAFT characters. A bulk of the problems with modern nerd entertainment is that certain splinters of us dweebs grew up feeling self important and can't just write things to their strengths/purposes anymore because thats "beneath them".

It is not possible to take a character like Sylvanas or Garrosh and turn them into a well nuanced, tragic victim. They are amusing cartoon stereotypes. You write for them in the moment or you make a new product

All it takes to fix an unfavored character is a good idea and solid writing. One of the chief problems WoW faces is that it's been riding down the success of the 2000s and fundamentally failed to move with the times. While forums are often used for venting frustrations regarding the contemporary product we get i think most longstanding fans just want Blizzard to do better or FFXIV really will be the WoW killer.

[KainneAbsolute]

That’s because SC2 story is legit franchise killing bad

The gameplay is phenomenal but the whole Kerrigan arc is nauseatingly bad writing

Apparently, Metzen did not want that kind of story. His idea for WoL was Raynor having problems with alcoholism and ruining the missions. Eventually, you would help him to stand up on his own. The team was against it.

Also, they wanted more dialogues and cutscenes during the missions (like WC3), but the team was convinced to explore the ships. So the story instead of being linked to in-game events, it needed to be prepared before or after mission. They also designed the maps according to the gameplay, instead of what is useful in the story.

In an interview, Dustin Browder said something like the exaggerated character traits to make they easy to remember (more like comic characters).

[Syegfryed]

As I figured, this is just going to devolve into a back and forth with no real conclusion as you try to rebut points. Trying to lionize Garrosh by minimizing or recontextualizing his failures isn't a winning gambit given his conclusion - we know exactly what Garrosh did, and where he ultimately ended up. Magatha and Garrosh weren't genocidal tyrants solely because they "opposed the Alliance," it was due to how they went about it. Magatha was a xenophobic despot and Tauren supremacist, whereas Garrosh was pretty much the same except for the Orcs. Garrosh even planned to reperpetrate the Old Horde's original sin of slaughtering the Draenei on AU Draenor for no real reason, given his grievance was with Azeroth. That's what kind of a maniac Garrosh was at his core. Garrosh treated any kind of criticism as insubordination, which is a marquee sign of a weak and feckless leader - an inability to accept being called out or held to account. You can feel free to check Chronicle Vol. 3 or WoWPedia if you want to confirm my sources - I did when I made them, after all, and sourced the material they came from. Beyond unsupported bias, you're basically just saying "nuh uh" and "you're wrong" without evidence or citation to back it up.

As I don't think there's any real headway to be had and we're already off-topic, this is my last reply on this particular tangent in the thread.

And of course you will try to demonize him, minimize and ignore what he did and "aggrandize" his failure like colossal things. You can't tell timelines apart, its like only MOP and WOd exist. I feels petty to say you 'call me out" when you were literally ignoring almost the entirty of Cata and before with what he did with the horde - turning from a lame ass faction to the point to stand against the alliance - to support your "tyranical dick" idea of hiim, to the point of saying it was horde fault for the war Varian declare and even saying it was because of that he declared.

[Specialka]

And of course you will try to demonize him, minimize and ignore what he did and "aggrandize" his failure like colossal things. You can't tell timelines apart, its like only MOP and WOd exist. I feels petty to say you 'call me out" when you were literally ignoring almost the entirty of Cata and before with what he did with the horde - turning from a lame ass faction to the point to stand against the alliance - to support your "tyranical dick" idea of hiim, to the point of saying it was horde fault for the war Varian declare and even saying it was because of that he declared.

He did want to slaugther everyone that opposed him, foes and allies alike. And since he wanted to dominate the world basically, everyone opposed him. So he was a tyrant, good riddance.

[Syegfryed]

He did want to slaugther everyone that opposed him, foes and allies alike. And since he wanted to dominate the world basically, everyone opposed him. So he was a tyrant, good riddance.

Why would he want to slaughter alies?, like, allies and not traitors

[Specialka]

Why would he want to slaughter alies?, like, allies and not traitors

Because anyone that would say something that he would not like was deemed a traitor, anyone that would question his decisions would be branded the same. That is the callmark of a tyrant.

[shadowmatrix]

Sure, isn't like the hellscream offsensive was ltierally in the final raid.

He was the hero of the war in nrtrend and why the people liked him

Garrosh was an idiot during Wrath who wanted to attack the Alliance. Saurfang had to remind him that killing Alliance soldiers merely gave the Lich King more dead bodies to use against them.

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I really preferred if the Alliance were the bad guys and the Horde were the good guys (save for the Forsaken and Blood Elves)

the Warcraft 3 to WotLK Horde accepts anyone regardless of race, skin color, and gender while the Alliance are self-righteous xenophobic racists that will slaughter anyone that doesn't look like a human - as it was in Warcraft 3

If that was the case then the Alliance would have followed Greymane's stance and killed the Orcs rather then putting them in camps.

[Ardenaso]

If that was the case then the Alliance would have followed Greymane's stance and killed the Orcs rather then putting them in camps.

I'd think Terenas' will overrides every others and his allies only decided to put up with him

[Soon-TM]

The restoration of Stromgarde under Danath Trollbane's leadership and failed Horde attempt to prevent it, which should have seen the Forsaken instead of the Orcs fighting humans, should have happened at the end of Cataclysm or during MOP.

Also Kul Tiras and Zandalar should have joined the Alliance and the Horde earlier, with the Zandalari at last joining while Vol'jin was warchief and with him having established a real relationship with the Zandalari and Rastakhan.

This is one of several bits that make me think that MoP 2.0 aka BfA was originally planned to come before Legion. Indeed, the Zandalari approaching the Horde (or vice-versa) and finding a receptive listener would have made way more sense with Vol'jin at the helm instead of the dArK LadY. Also, BfA was sold at some point as the ultimate AvH showdown, with all its warfronts - only two made it to live, but there were datamined dialog lines/art assets (from alpha iirc) for warfronts in the Barrens and in Silvermoon. It would have been quite cool if the Legion had invaded once we were kicking each other's butts, in a nice callback to the very first cinematic from vanilla WC3... But it was not meant to be

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh was an idiot during Wrath who wanted to attack the Alliance. Saurfang had to remind him that killing Alliance soldiers merely gave the Lich King more dead bodies to use against them.

cool, you cited one instance in the entire expansion, now look for the rest, He was the hero of nortrend, he help to make victory and why the people liked him

[Orby]

while I have been defending a lot of the writers here (and for some good reason its not entirely their fault), I do think on a general scale yes there is a writing problem but its only because Warcraft is nearly 30 years old and when you have a franchise going for that long, as well as an MMO that's taken 17 of those years continuously, to pump out story then you are going to run into issues.

This is a problem I recently got to thinking about when it came to the Forgotten Realms franchise (a franchise I also love), when you have all these creative voices, you are going to get inconsistencies, you are going to get a tonal shift, the handling of certain characters will be different, and this is all unavoidable its rough as hell, but its how Blizzard are approaching its creative department.

Over the years when and if this franchise is still going, there will be more changes to creative which means more people leaving, more people coming in, more shifts in tone and style and characters. Its unavoidable unless you end the franchise or force the original writers to keep doing it..

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

This is one of several bits that make me think that MoP 2.0 aka BfA was originally planned to come before Legion. Indeed, the Zandalari approaching the Horde (or vice-versa) and finding a receptive listener would have made way more sense with Vol'jin at the helm instead of the dArK LadY. Also, BfA was sold at some point as the ultimate AvH showdown, with all its warfronts - only two made it to live, but there were datamined dialog lines/art assets (from alpha iirc) for warfronts in the Barrens and in Silvermoon. It would have been quite cool if the Legion had invaded once we were kicking each other's butts, in a nice callback to the very first cinematic from vanilla WC3... But it was not meant to be

It would have been far better and more justified if it was the Burning Legion that destroyed Teldrassil and the Undercity, and if Tyrande went through the NW ritual to fight them instead of seeing this supposed to be so powerful ability wasted like that.

[username993720]

Indeed, the Zandalari approaching the Horde (or vice-versa) and finding a receptive listener would have made way more sense with Vol'jin at the helm instead of the dArK LadY.

Only an Orc can be a true Warchief.
The others just seem misplaced.

It would have been far better and more justified if it was the Burning Legion that destroyed Teldrassil and the Undercity, and if Tyrande went through the NW ritual to fight them instead of seeing this supposed to be so powerful ability wasted like that.

I actually like this idea. It makes a lot of sense.
Another option would be Ragnaros burning Teldrassil and the Scourge destroying Lordaeron.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Only an Orc can be a true Warchief.
The others just seem misplaced.



I actually like this idea. It makes a lot of sense.
Another option would be Ragnaros burning Teldrassil and the Scourge destroying Lordaeron.

The Burning Legion was too focused on the Broken Isles during Legion, and we didn't see enough devastations and casualties to Azeroth caused by them during this expansion barring Sargeras' sword in Silithus. Not counting how we didn't see the Elemental Lords and Valjalar and dragonflights battle the Legion during this expansion. Also it's ironic and shameful at the same time how Wrathion was nowhere to be seen despite him being so obsessed to stop the Legion and creating this time travel nonsense, and bringing AU Gul'dan to Azeroth in the previous expansions.

Speaking of Ragnaros, his death never really sat well with me since he and the other Elemental Lords are supposed to be bound to Azeroth itself and thus immortal.

[username993720]

Also it's ironic and shameful at the same time how Wrathion was nowhere to be seen despite him being so obsessed to stop the Legion and creating this time travel nonsense, and bringing AU Gul'dan to Azeroth in the previous expansions.

I guess you could say he backed off on his own idea: "you know what? i'll let them deal with this shit... i just want to get a rest"

Speaking of Ragnaros, his death never really sat well with me since he and the other Elemental Lords are supposed to be bound to Azeroth itself and thus immortal.

He's coming back.
A cult of Dark Iron Dwarves are trying to revive him.