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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    Sorry but this post is a cope. Garrosh was winning the war and if Vol'jin didn't backstab Garrosh the Alliance would've gotten annihilated. Garrosh even won against the Burning Legion and smashed Mannoroth while capturing Gul'dan. (That we the players did release )

    But on top of that, Garrosh didn't have anime powers like Varian. All he got was his own strength and hus willpower. He controlled an Old God. A feat not done by any character.

    Garrosh was a formidable foe and a headstrong leader.
    Garrash was basically Marty Mcfly with the sports almanac betting on a horse race when he faced Mannoroth. Hardly makes him a great anything.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    Garrash was basically Marty Mcfly with the sports almanac betting on a horse race when he faced Mannoroth. Hardly makes him a great anything.
    Didn’t biff conquer the world with that almanac? I’d say that’s quite a bit of success whether it’s rigged or not

    Garrosh would have won if the writers didn’t have that worthless troll and the alliance sympathizers (minority of horde players) betray the horde. We were on the verge of victory before the writers deux ex machina’d it and ruined the horde

  3. #43
    Also WTF is she a dumb writer damn doesn't even know the meaning of intact. Which is " not damaged or impaired in any way; complete. So if she stuck with , "and when adversity and disaster and personal torment rip her down to nothing but that core, that core is still intact." it would be correct but them the dummy goes and says, "It's hurt, but it's intact." Then by definition its no longer intact I mean wtf is that. Psycho Jaina who purged Dal? She always acts on emotion and had a weak core, until BfA. Perhaps you could argue going to her homeland and making amends made her find herself again. But then again I expect nothing less cheesy coming from Christie. Her only good book is the Arthas one in my opinion. She's very good at descriptive writing, but obviously her understanding of word definitions are very weak.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    I would say that posts with bias and faulty information don't "clearly" show anything, and that they only undermine any kind of point that the OP may have.
    What is "biased" in the OP? He is quoting one of the main writers in the staff, with source and everything. What should it include in order to not be considered "biased"?
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  5. #45
    Saying the problems are new or recent isn't controversial.
    People have always complained about the writing.
    People complained about Knaak too.
    Hell, there was complaining about the writing of Eredar/Draenei in TBC.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yes, those feeble remnants.

    "Garrosh would wipe the floor with her" when Alleria absorbed an ENTIRE VOID NAARU (as opposed to just a feeble remnant) and the Chronicles show us that the Naaru are the Light counterpart of the Old Gods on the Cosmic hierarchy, this is on top of having already absorbed another Void Demi-God prior to the Seat of the Triumvirate dungeon.

    You said that Garrosh was the only one who could absorb an Old God. This is false. Thus you have been corrected.
    Using the chronicles to claim equivalence between the counter-powers is a rather flawed argument.

    We know for a fact the Titans lost to the Legion and were stuck in Antorus despite individually being more powerful than any single demon. And by your logic Old Gods are 2 bit chumps who get victimised all the time, by characters who are nowhere near the top dogs, even compared to other mortals. If you wanna see what happens when they meet an actually powerful mortal refer yourself to Illidan vs Xe'ra(Most powerful Naaru, except wtf Elune is supposed to be).



    Regarding the topic at large Golden is not necessarily wrong. A strong character can admit and own up to their own weaknesses and failings, without compromising their self esteem. Persistence is as much a benefit, as it is a flaw, where you can end up with either a character who always keeps their core values or a character who keeps boneheadedly doing dumb shit and can't take any form of legitimate criticism.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    And by your logic Old Gods are 2 bit chumps who get victimised all the time, by characters who are nowhere near the top dogs, even compared to other mortals.
    So what happened to one Old God who was single-handedly destroyed by one Night Warrior (like Tyrande)? Agreed.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Saying the problems are new or recent isn't controversial.
    People have always complained about the writing.
    People complained about Knaak too.
    Hell, there was complaining about the writing of Eredar/Draenei in TBC.
    Not to derail the thread, but there certainly have been lowpoints. Like Knaak retrospectively making Tyrande look like a dumb racist, in WC3, even back then.


    But if a character is described as and generally treated by other characters as the smartest person in the room, but in actuality gives the audience the impression of being severely autistic and dumb, while often breaking out of character. Something is going severely wrong behind the scenes on the producer/director/writer level.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So what happened to one Old God who was single-handedly destroyed by one Night Warrior (like Tyrande)? Agreed.
    it wasnt "just" a night warrior. it was a night warrior+an entire army iirc
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    That's factually correct. Garrosh is a weakling with daddy issues at its core.
    He is the sad bully who is angry at the world because he feels weak.

    Even after eating the garbage rest of an old god and ending in a form his own father would have spit on :


    He kept his stupid "DiDuN NoFfIn wR0Ng" pathetic line.

    Owning your mistake is what makes someone strong. Doubling down on idiot just makes you a fool.

    You may not like it, but that's how he is and was written. Sure we can debate the quality of the story telling, but it's still the actual canon story.
    It's ok to not like things. But don't be a Garrosh, don't get mad at everything you don't like...
    Quoted for /thread

    I know there is cult of "Garrosh did nothing wrong", but hell... he most certainly did A LOT wrong, even aside being racist supremacist going full nuts on old god juice he practically almost doomed orcs to be slaves of another power again. Leader who does not learn from history and heck, it's his father's story at that.

    Except that his father had the balls to break off the hook, admit that he fucked up big time and slay the one who doomed them all. That's why Grom Hellscream is a hero, while his son is a pitiful parody and a slap to the face of Grom's legacy.

    Garrosh - dumbass to the last line of text ever in WoW.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-07-11 at 02:55 PM.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but there certainly have been lowpoints. Like Knaak retrospectively making Tyrande look like a dumb racist, in WC3, even back then.


    But if a character is described as and generally treated by other characters as the smartest person in the room, but in actuality gives the audience the impression of being severely autistic and dumb, while often breaking out of character. Something is going severely wrong behind the scenes on the producer/director/writer level.
    Yes, but that’s been the case with WoW’s lore and writing dept. since the game launched. Blizzard is notorious for saying one thing, but showing the complete opposite in practice.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having a strong core doesn't mean you can't change, or admit to your own mistakes - it means that regardless of what happens to you that core remains intact and a strong influence over who you are as a person. Jaina prior to Cata was always depicted as a sensitive and insightful soul who favored creativity over brutality. She changed somewhat following the destruction of her home as well as the murder of her people and friends, but the same core traits she had always possessed eventually evened her out and made it so she could eventually overcome that trauma and resume being who she was, changed but still essentially the same person.

    Contrast this with Garrosh, who's introduced as being a pathetic shell of an Orc who continually mopes and groans about the actions of his father until Thrall relates Grom's heroic death. He then does a complete 180 and becomes an entirely new person, overly headstrong and unreasonably boastful. He then proceeds to question his new father-figure Thrall at every turn, basically acting like a complete git throughout WotLK, and on becoming Warchief tolerates no criticism and surrounds himself with yes-men like Malkorok who kowtow to his whims like sycophants.

    So yes, in that vein Garrosh is essentially weak and Jaina is essentially strong - he refuses any and all culpability for his many mistakes, and ends up lodged deep in WoW's version of hell as equally and stupidly unrepentant. Jaina, on the other hand, acknowledges her mistakes and the criticism levied at her and stops her descent into zealotry to eventually level out and return to herself.
    This. People are missing the point that "weak" doesn't, in this context, mean physically weak, and it doesn't mean he was a terrible commander that didn't get results by stomping the Alliance.

    It's like when some bring up toxic masculinity and others' immediate reaction is "Masculinity isn't toxic!"

    Well no, not inherently but we're not talking about masculinity in and of itself, or in this case physical strength or strategic abilities. We're talking about how Garrosh is a character who let the deeds of his father affect him to such a degree that Thrall had to shake some sense into him.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-07-11 at 03:12 PM.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So what happened to one Old God who was single-handedly destroyed by one Night Warrior (like Tyrande)? Agreed.
    Hard to scale Night Warrior power, where on one hand you have hugely powerful arbiters of divine vengeance, who live on a borrowed time due to the power they've taken deatroying them from within, on the other you have Tyrande, whose power wildly fluctuated based on opponents. Could make the argument she didn't take it all the way she could have or that she tired herself out grinding Thorgast, but it was rather underwhelming. Kinda like all the Pit Lords, who have backstories as destroyers of worlds only to get rekt in seconds by some dude with an axe.

    Given by what we've seen Old Gods are way more powerful than any single Naaru fallen or otherwise, which would make the NW feat much more impresive. Only real tangibleexception was the one responsible for creation of the Ethereals

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    Sorry but this post is a cope. Garrosh was winning the war and if Vol'jin didn't backstab Garrosh the Alliance would've gotten annihilated. Garrosh even won against the Burning Legion and smashed Mannoroth while capturing Gul'dan. (That we the players did release )
    Garrosh was handed the means to prevent an event he knew how would occur and could plan for. Even then, the Iron Horde ultimately succumbed to the Burning Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But on top of that, Garrosh didn't have anime powers like Varian. All he got was his own strength and hus willpower. He controlled an Old God. A feat not done by any character.
    Debatable. The brief time Garrosh had the Heart was enough that he raved about the visions Y'Shaarj had shown him.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Garrosh was handed the means to prevent an event he knew how would occur and could plan for. Even then, the Iron Horde ultimately succumbed to the Burning Legion.

    Debatable. The brief time Garrosh had the Heart was enough that he raved about the visions Y'Shaarj had shown him.
    Even before that is what he meant. Garrosh was winning the REAL war before the writers had vol'jin and the weak part of the horde join the alliance and betray him. It was utterly shameful, and no TRUE horde player would have raided orgrimmar. We should have had the option to defend orgrimmar from the traitors, and let the side with the most kills be canon at the end.

    Garrosh would have won that war period if the writers didn't decide everyone had to be Anduin on the morality scale. It was a deux ex machina writing was, and bad writing quite frankly. The horde would rather die of infighting than EVER side with the alliance

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    What is "biased" in the OP? He is quoting one of the main writers in the staff, with source and everything. What should it include in order to not be considered "biased"?
    Well let's see here. Instead of just focusing on the general fact that Blizzard unnecessarily swapped Jaina's stance like 3 or 4 times in 3 expansions, he decided to use the fact that she almost attacked Orgrimmar; which doesn't particularly make sense to use as a point since she was ultimately talked down from doing it even directly after a WMD wiped out her entire city. That said, this part isn't really biased, it's just a poor example of her personality being unstable.

    However, then he stated that she murdered innocent blood elves, which is a controversial and inaccurate version of what happened in the story. Some one from Blizzard stated waaaaay back that attacking rando civilians was just an in-game bug, and that the only Blood Elves that she killed were the ones that resisted her. So that's just false information right there.

    Then the second post was basically just a Garrosh puff-piece in which they mention that he would have easily won the war against the Alliance if Vol'jin hadn't betrayed him. Putting aside the accuracy of that claim, it's ultimately just a form of fanfic/headcanon that's entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Then he moves on to some business about Garrosh "controlling an Old God" with his willpower alone (and insinuates that it's not the same as Varian's DBZ style power-up), which is a pretty loose interpretation of Garrosh resorting to drastic measures as the walls closed in around him.

    Taking his second post into consideration with the first one, it makes the entire thread look like this is basically just about how cool someone thinks Garrosh is and they really dislike Jaina (and probably Thrall and Anduin). Which is fine if that's the case, but it smacks of personal bias. More to the point, if your goal is to talk about how out of touch the writers may or may not be, distorting the story to fit your narrative won't do anything to prove that.

  17. #57
    just want to point out the writing choices made have to be approved by someone. namely some lead designer. IDK maybe the fault should lie more with them.

  18. #58
    Garrosh was someone who acted strong and tough to the extreme to cover his insecurities and weaknesses and his previous moments of weakness before Thrall showed him his father's end and redemption, and his daddy issues. He was basically an overgrown child who hadn't moved on from his childhood traumas and was crying for his father's approval to make up for it.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Even before that is what he meant. Garrosh was winning the REAL war before the writers had vol'jin and the weak part of the horde join the alliance and betray him. It was utterly shameful, and no TRUE horde player would have raided orgrimmar. We should have had the option to defend orgrimmar from the traitors, and let the side with the most kills be canon at the end.

    Garrosh would have won that war period if the writers didn't decide everyone had to be Anduin on the morality scale. It was a deux ex machina writing was, and bad writing quite frankly. The horde would rather die of infighting than EVER side with the alliance
    I hate to break this to you, but the Horde was never going to be victorious. World of Warcraft is a video game built around a two faction system and neither one is going to triumph over the other until that changes.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I hate to break this to you, but the Horde was never going to be victorious. World of Warcraft is a video game built around a two faction system and neither one is going to triumph over the other until that changes.
    talented writers can pull it off. SWTOR had the sith empire lose. ESO has winners and losers in war. Practically EVERY game involving war has winners/losers and that pushes the story forward.

    I'd rather lose as the villain, than be neutered into forever inaction by writers who lack an iota of testicular fortitude to make ballsy decisions necessary to push wow forward.

    By this point in WoW, BOTH sides should have lost to the other openly by now in different styles, with entire capitals conquered.

    You want to get alliance players fired up? Have garrosh win MoP and his new throne is stormwind and the remaining alliance players have to retake it someday or destroy it, etc.

    It's their gutless decision making about not wanting to offend either factions players base at the expense of quality story telling, that has pushed wow into the narrative state it's in now and spoiler alert.... it isn't as good as it would've been if it was more grounded, brutal, and WAR like. You know, like WAR craft.

    Unironically, i think metzen and thrall are the worst thing to ever happen to the horde because it neutered them and turned into into alliance sympathizing pansies. Thrall should have died at the end of WC3 to complete his arc. The longer thrall has lived, the worse he becomes as a character.
    Last edited by justandulas; 2021-07-11 at 03:59 PM.

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