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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    the book is 'good' because it doesn't add new stuff, just fix old ones, that's a massive difference
    Arthas book for example is considered great but with speed of events problem, events happens slow then jump to another time etc (i know there is one single word in english to describe that, but i can't remember it...)
    Illidan i admit has a good time flow in writing, but that's it, the book is shit, its a writer told type x, he just did, Knack for all his hatred did a LOT to wow lore and some are great, Knack created dragon aspect idea for example yet ppl forget that, also his raptor army idea is the epitome of shit writing in warcraft, with how wow is going i wonder if it was his brain idea or blizz telling him just make humans the best ever, since imo wow biggest problem now is how everything in wow exist to show how amazing perfect humans (of wow universe) are
    tldr: book is just recap of old events without add new ones, hence why it is 'ok'
    That it doesn't have orcs and humans forced into it adds a lot of points to the book.

    The same even though it is just Ok or garbage it must be the best or the second best of the Kaldorer Books (Because there is one that does not read). Being that the others tend to be something like "ignore this book because it has nothing to do with what happens in the Wow".
    But being that even Cronicas kicks them quite off camera.

  2. #162
    Jaina in MoP: "Varian, dismantle the Horde".


    Jaina in BfA: "Thrall: What's different this time? Jaina: We are".


    We can all see where this is going.

    Garrosh in WoD: "All i did, i did for the Horde".


    Garrosh in Shadowlands: "For the Horde!"


    They decided to kill off this character right away.

    Now, does anyone have any doubt about World of Warcraft becoming World of Peacecraft?
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  3. #163
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    I wouldn't call Garrosh's change an actual change of his persona though. The Garrosh you first meet isn't really him as it's all the thoughts the others thrust upon him from the reputation that Grom had in Outland. Once free of that burden he was actually able to be his own person. That's not really "changing" in the sense that Jaina constantly has.
    Saying that "the Garrosh you first meet isn't really him" is highly debatable as well know little of his characterization beforehand, save that he was a victim of the Red Pox and seemingly spent his adolescence as a sickly and frail Orcling. Even on recovery from the pox he was described as "tormented by tales of his father," and he "feared he would lead the Mag'har down a dark path." Suffice to say, it seems mopey and whiny Garrosh had a much longer tenure than the fierce warrior we see after Thrall's first visit to Garadar. And to quote Garrosh himself:
    You are an honorable <race>, <name>. You have done much for the Mag'har. No one could ever deny your service to my people. Alas, the time of the Mag'har is at an end. You have shown me, more than anything, that I am unfit to lead these people. My cursed blood runs too deep. I will not... I cannot become the second Hellscream to damn the orcs.

    Please, <name>, return to the Greatmother and tell her what I have told you. I am too ashamed to see her... to look into her eyes.
    I also wouldn't say that Garrosh "was never his own person," simply that the person he was is essentially weak, dependent on the approval of others, and so deep into his own delusions that he fractured the Horde he was supposed to lead, became a tainted abomination, and wound up damned to WoW's version of hell for his troubles. Jaina on the other hand was scarred by trauma, endured a period of volatile instability, but eventually evened out and became a stronger, wiser version of her original self. Garrosh refused to accept culpability for his own actions even in the deepest pit of the Shadowlands, whereas Jaina experienced a more positive growth and actually addressed and overcame her demons. That is what having a strong core of self is.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yes, those feeble remnants.

    "Garrosh would wipe the floor with her" when Alleria absorbed an ENTIRE VOID NAARU (as opposed to just a feeble remnant) and the Chronicles show us that the Naaru are the Light counterpart of the Old Gods on the Cosmic hierarchy, this is on top of having already absorbed another Void Demi-God prior to the Seat of the Triumvirate dungeon.

    You said that Garrosh was the only one who could absorb an Old God. This is false. Thus you have been corrected.
    If the Naaru are the "light" equivalent of the Old Gods, then that's a serious retcon. There's already a void version of the Naaru, and they aren't nearly as strong as the Old Gods are.

    The way that I understood it was that there were things at higher levels than the Naaru on both sides. Like... M'uru the Naaru turns into a void being known as Entropius. Definitely not an old god, and it wouldn't be the thing at the top of the hierarchy of the void either as that would be even stronger than a fully power Old God.

    So it seems to me there's at least three levels of beings with the Naaru being at the bottom of those three. We've not seen the light equivalent of the other two levels.

    Void side would be Strongest void thing -> Old God -> Entropius (Dark Naaru)
    Light side would be Strongest Light thing -> Second Strongest Light thing -> Naaru

  5. #165
    Garrosh never really moved on from his feelings of shame and weakness about having been sick of the Red Pox and called useless and weak by Kargath and other orcs, if he had he would have recognised that he wasn't at fault at all for being sick and that he has nothing to be ashamed about that and that it was Kargath and his men who were in the wrong.

    He also didn't really realize or chose to completely forget the lessons about his father after hearing about his redemption, otherwise he would have known that it wasn't drinking blood and using fel magic that were the problems but choosing to use an extremely dark form of magic and forsaking orc culture for the sake of power and slaughtering other species without good reasons, massacring innocents and children in the process, that were his father and the Old Horde's wrongs. Thins that he repeated just without the demonic aspects.

    Grommash was at least able to show some of his regrets and change at least partially his ways even if it took him being freed of Mannoroth's thrall just before his final battle and death for him to really learn his lesson, while Garrosh never show regret or admitted his faults and as such was unable of learning from them.
    Last edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight; 2021-07-12 at 10:03 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Buddy it was just the rotting heart of the Old God, I'd like to see Garrosh try to absorb the mountain of flesh that is an unleashed Old God. OP is purposefully misinterpreting what happened, Garrosh didn't absorb an Old God but what was essentially the carcass of one.

    Plus I mean Blizzard can say that Garrosh "controlled the whispers" all they want, the fact is that the game shows otherwise. As soon as he starts showering in Old God juice he grows increasingly more insane and unhinged, like he literally screams nonsense like "the world will burn muahahaha", that doesn't seem very stable and in control to me.
    A void naaru was a 5 man boss in legion. Not that big a deal. Meanwhile, garrosh could take on up to 30 adventurers.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Saying that "the Garrosh you first meet isn't really him" is highly debatable as well know little of his characterization beforehand, save that he was a victim of the Red Pox and seemingly spent his adolescence as a sickly and frail Orcling. Even on recovery from the pox he was described as "tormented by tales of his father," and he "feared he would lead the Mag'har down a dark path." Suffice to say, it seems mopey and whiny Garrosh had a much longer tenure than the fierce warrior we see after Thrall's first visit to Garadar. And to quote Garrosh himself:

    I also wouldn't say that Garrosh "was never his own person," simply that the person he was is essentially weak, dependent on the approval of others, and so deep into his own delusions that he fractured the Horde he was supposed to lead, became a tainted abomination, and wound up damned to WoW's version of hell for his troubles. Jaina on the other hand was scarred by trauma, endured a period of volatile instability, but eventually evened out and became a stronger, wiser version of her original self. Garrosh refused to accept culpability for his own actions even in the deepest pit of the Shadowlands, whereas Jaina experienced a more positive growth and actually addressed and overcame her demons. That is what having a strong core of self is.

    I think the issue really is that his character was inconsistently written. If he had shown more "daddy issues" then I'd have believed his change. Instead of talking about how he saw the Horde being crippled as part of their own self penance, he should have tied that into his OWN penance that he went through prior to Wrath; How he was always mopey and was pitiful due to his perceived understanding of his father's actions.

    He spent all of TBC moping about his father only to find out he was a hero in the end, it would have made a lot more sense for his motivation to be solely focused around his father's legacy instead of forging his own legacy. OR alternatively he could have used anger towards his father as a spark for the desire to create a better legacy so that no son in his bloodline would ever again feel like his heritage was weak.
    His hatred of the alliance could have been based on how they only see the bad in the orcs the same way he only knew the bad in his father. Instead, he just kinda hates them because they have branded themselves as enemies. Something like, "I will crush anybody who fails to see us as more than slaves of the demons! We have long since been freed!" instead of "I hate you because you said we're enemies and you won't be nice to us!"

    So definitely a lot of options they could have taken that would have made his slow descent into a villain a lot more clear.

  8. #168
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    I think the issue really is that his character was inconsistently written. If he had shown more "daddy issues" then I'd have believed his change. Instead of talking about how he saw the Horde being crippled as part of their own self penance, he should have tied that into his OWN penance that he went through prior to Wrath; How he was always mopey and was pitiful due to his perceived understanding of his father's actions.
    Not that inconsistent - invoking Grom was always a trigger for Garrosh. Thrall presses it in the pre-WotLK event, which precipitates a Mak'gora between him and Garrosh that only ends with the Herald of the Lich King interrupting it directly. Taran Zhu presses it during MoP, triggering Garrosh to attack in a rage and almost gut the Pandaren on Gorehowl. Garrosh ultimately failed to learn the lesson of Grom's many failures, seeing only his heroic final act as the sum total of the man. That he then goes in to live (and die) as a perverse inversion of Grom's own journey of atonement is quite fitting, all in all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    He spent all of TBC moping about his father only to find out he was a hero in the end, it would have made a lot more sense for his motivation to be solely focused around his father's legacy instead of forging his own legacy. OR alternatively he could have used anger towards his father as a spark for the desire to create a better legacy so that no son in his bloodline would ever again feel like his heritage was weak.
    His hatred of the alliance could have been based on how they only see the bad in the orcs the same way he only knew the bad in his father. Instead, he just kinda hates them because they have branded themselves as enemies. Something like, "I will crush anybody who fails to see us as more than slaves of the demons! We have long since been freed!" instead of "I hate you because you said we're enemies and you won't be nice to us!"

    So definitely a lot of options they could have taken that would have made his slow descent into a villain a lot more clear.
    Doing any of those things would've been the act of a stronger person, the kind of person that Garrosh's ultimately wasn't, yes. Even though I don't feel Garrosh was wrong about his views on Thrall's strange sense of racial austerity as penance for the Horde's actions on Draenor and earlier on Azeroth, the way he handles that sentiment speaks to his own self-aggrandizing and over-compensating personality. He could've (as Anachronos points out) been an excelling Warchief who guided the Horde out of self-enforced squalor and led them into a renaissance of self-determination, but he instead chose conquest over progress, a vain pursuit to lionize himself and live up to the false ideal of his father he'd created in his imaginings.

    As for his descent into villainy, I've always seen it as rather linear and not at all muddled. Pretty basic outline for your standard-issue tyrant: surround yourself with yes-men, trap yourself in an echo chamber of your own ideas, get drunk on endless approval, and finally have your fragile self-identity crash on the cold and unyielding surface of reality. In Garrosh's case, his delusional state of mind was so deeply ingrained that he would've gleefully perpetrated the Old Horde's genocide on the Draenei a second time, all in the name of vengeance and his own personal glory.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #169
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    That it doesn't have orcs and humans forced into it adds a lot of points to the book.
    didn't notice that, that makes this book way better than i thought
    and how did blizz let that? nothing about any hot elf fall in love with a perfect human as usual? is that a blizz book?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    What is this raptor army ? First time I've read about it.
    i think it was Night of Dragon book by Knack, tldr: Rhonin the red-head mage leads a raptor army to attack Grim Batol, the writing is way too cringy and horrible that i suggest just read summary at wowpedia better
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  10. #170
    It's certainly not the inanimate object of the story that's at fault. The writers are interested in setpiece dramas instead of character growth. Ironically, Danuser is the closest thing to a proponent of any kind of character arc that I see on their team, even if it just is for his self-insert to romance the Banshee Queen.

  11. #171
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As for his descent into villainy, I've always seen it as rather linear and not at all muddled.
    that's literally exact opposite of what blizz own writing team flat out stated, in this interview (sadly link is dead now, i still bookmark it), Alex Afrasiabi literally says that half of lore team for MoP didn't get the memo of Garrosh change in Cata, he flat out admit that Cata was plan to make Garrosh more heroic and an actual good leader (hence why his Stonetalon and Twilight quests, and the short story that makes his coward attack in Icecrown backstab alliance wrong and promise to never repeat it), but half of wow team who was working on MoP who are supposed to be working in same fucking company in same fucking department, didn't notice entire Cata development (probably too high smoking weed) and went forward with MoP plans to make Garrosh orc hitler and turn our warchief to loot piniata and fuck our capital forever
    I miss wowinsider, honestly when that website was up i felt wow was REALLY loved and it filled me with a LOT of positivity towards wow, since that website died i feel more and more negative towards wow, minus the great Legion era (with all its flaws)
    And on side note, Garrosh interview for warchief (really old article, pre-cata) on wowinsider and 50 warchiefs better than Garrosh both are amazing and really funny and probably best fan article made for wow, sadly nothing modern i can think about that equals it (and also Scourge chat if any remember it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    A void naaru was a 5 man boss in legion. Not that big a deal. Meanwhile, garrosh could take on up to 30 adventurers.
    in-game fight is never equal to actual power lorewise, also powerlvl in wow became a comic-degree of joke with how anything just can beat anything if they want, they just farted a new super uber villain for SL which we should compare with Sargeras, and Sargeras was built up since 1994
    Murmur end boss of Shadow Labs dungeon in TBC is supposed to be world destroyer, stronger than any raid boss (except maybe KJ) in entire exp, yet he is end boss of a dungeon
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  12. #172
    Golden's initial paragraph about Garrosh is absolutely correct. Garrosh is small-minded and personally weak. She is, of course, completely wrong about her follow-up: The whole reason Garrosh is weak is because he is blindly stubborn and acts only on his own fragiile pride and ego. As a result, he is incredibly inflexible and unwilling to take any action save what will drive him further down the foolish road he's chosen to walk.

    Considering that Golden is the one who had Jaina betray her own actual core values—those of logic and understanding that she held so firmly in Wc3—that woman has no business commenting on Jaina at all. She is all that is wrong with how that character has been written since.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Now, does anyone have any doubt about World of Warcraft becoming World of Peacecraft?
    Imo, the game should become World of Peacecraft.

    Blizzard writers are shit and they haven't told an above average story, (Not good, just above average.) since Diablo 2.

    The faction war story of World of Warcraft is legitimately hard to write because it has so many constraints. Both factions have a set of ideals that are not inherently contradictory that they must conform to. These factions must fight without breaking their ideals, without one or both factions being irredeemably evil, without the war being predicated on raw stupidity and without either faction ever winning because they always need to be playable.

    That would be an almost impossible task for a great writer. Blizzard is filled with shit writers from top to bottom.

    Imo, they should stay in their lane and write cookie cutter stories about good guys and good orcs vs the giant soulless army commanded by whatever flavor of the Devil we're up against this week. They don't have the writing bona fides to handle anything more complicated or nuanced than that because they suck.

  14. #174
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    that's literally exact opposite of what blizz own writing team flat out stated, in this interview (sadly link is dead now, i still bookmark it), Alex Afrasiabi literally says that half of lore team for MoP didn't get the memo of Garrosh change in Cata, he flat out admit that Cata was plan to make Garrosh more heroic and an actual good leader (hence why his Stonetalon and Twilight quests, and the short story that makes his coward attack in Icecrown backstab alliance wrong and promise to never repeat it), but half of wow team who was working on MoP who are supposed to be working in same fucking company in same fucking department, didn't notice entire Cata development (probably too high smoking weed) and went forward with MoP plans to make Garrosh orc hitler and turn our warchief to loot piniata and fuck our capital forever
    I miss wowinsider, honestly when that website was up i felt wow was REALLY loved and it filled me with a LOT of positivity towards wow, since that website died i feel more and more negative towards wow, minus the great Legion era (with all its flaws)
    And on side note, Garrosh interview for warchief (really old article, pre-cata) on wowinsider and 50 warchiefs better than Garrosh both are amazing and really funny and probably best fan article made for wow, sadly nothing modern i can think about that equals it (and also Scourge chat if any remember it)
    Way too much is made of Stonetalon quests in Cata, which as Afrasiabi admits are a product of miscommunication and thus a mistake - but that's just *one* incident in which Garrosh was mischaracterized, and to be honest it's pretty easy to dovetail even that into Garrosh's greater characterization and arc into villainy. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, as the saying goes, and so Stonetalon happens to be a set-piece where Gsrrosh's better nature was briefly visible amongst a career of boneheaded power plays. In the Twilight Highlands Garrosh comes off as a blowhard - and while he always was a powerful warrior and front-line fighter, he remained a horrible and ineffectual leader. Cata was the same expansion and story-arc where Garrosh also almost got himself killed by Quillboar by wading into combat without thought.

    One instance of Garrosh being decent doesn't derail his arc - it's just a bump in the road, more or less, and completely overshadowed by his later actions.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    It's not enough to resolve the issues with this whole conflict, from the NE sending half of their forces to Silithus just based on something said during a fake brawl when you can't make plans based on something like that, plans are based on many evidences and details, as the complete absence of the majority of Night Elves' allies such as Draenei, Worgens, Furbolgs, Chimaeras, Fae Dragons, Mountain Giants or Wildkins during the war of thorns.

    And honnestly the lack of opposition from Saurfang and most Horde leaders to attacking the NE like that and without major provocation from them, and for Azerite and just after the Burning Legion war, as well as the lack of remorse amongst the Horde (especially the Nightborne) for their actions barring Baine and Saurfang was really forced and made the Horde look very unsympathetic.
    The whole situation was forced, from start to finish. Cherrypicking individual things is kinda pointless. As far as Horde being vicious goes that's kind of the point tbh. They were always the darker faction, more aggressive, more willing to crack a few skulls, if it meant getting things done. Unfortunately over the years, when Horde had some sort of a dilema the usual answer was "Make it more like the Alliance", which resulted in generic uninteresting things like moder day Blood Knights, whom I'd be surprised if you could separate ideologically from the Silver Hand.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    The whole situation was forced, from start to finish. Cherrypicking individual things is kinda pointless. As far as Horde being vicious goes that's kind of the point tbh. They were always the darker faction, more aggressive, more willing to crack a few skulls, if it meant getting things done. Unfortunately over the years, when Horde had some sort of a dilema the usual answer was "Make it more like the Alliance", which resulted in generic uninteresting things like modern day Blood Knights, whom I'd be surprised if you could separate ideologically from the Silver Hand.
    As a matter of fact, BKs were full fledged members of the Silver Hand as of Legion. What a shame, really... Their BC characterisation is far more interesting.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  17. #177
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    Considering that Golden is the one who had Jaina betray her own actual core values—those of logic and understanding that she held so firmly in Wc3—that woman has no business commenting on Jaina at all. She is all that is wrong with how that character has been written since.
    It’s incredibly unlikely golden got any say in story direction for jaina outside of Mabye doing more bad romance stuff.

    That’s no way blizzard would let a contractor choose how major characters they plan to use a ton play out.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s incredibly unlikely golden got any say in story direction for jaina outside of Mabye doing more bad romance stuff.

    That’s no way blizzard would let a contractor choose how major characters they plan to use a ton play out.
    She's been a "contractor" for Warcraft lore & stories since 2001.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s incredibly unlikely golden got any say in story direction for jaina outside of Mabye doing more bad romance stuff.

    That’s no way blizzard would let a contractor choose how major characters they plan to use a ton play out.
    The writers generally have a lot of influence over the minor details and execution. (Like how Sylvanas magically absolved Anduin of any plausible guilt, in regards tot he Calia situation going south, in BtS... Tbh when ir ead it that book was kinda narrator bias heavy)

    But i agree that the large scale decisions are a top down problem from the Director, Executive Producer, Lead Writer, etc. level.

  20. #180
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    The writers generally have a lot of influence over the minor details and execution. (Like how Sylvanas magically absolved Anduin of any plausible guilt, in regards tot he Calia situation going south, in BtS... Tbh when ir ead it that book was kinda narrator bias heavy)

    But i agree that the large scale decisions are a top down problem from the Director, Executive Producer, Lead Writer, etc. level.
    they do tend to have influence Golden has said she's pushed for some things like adding anduin to the shattering and they let her do it but as you said the actual lead story writers wouldn't put there plans on hold for something a contractor wants to do when they won't be involved with the story past the material they were contracted to make.

    as far as Jiana goes blizzard had an ingame plan for her as she had a ton of screen time in mop there's no way they would have let golden change that plan they would have just hired her to flesh out the minor details for what they already wanted in a novel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    She's been a "contractor" for Warcraft lore & stories since 2001.
    She has been ya and she's even spoken out what it was like before she was brought into blizzard proper in 2017.

    Christie Golden
    As I wasn’t working for Blizzard as a full-time employee, I was only given limited insight into anything. I was on a strictly need to know basis.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristieG...13339921997829

    and even past being hired she's said she just fills out the orders the actual wow or other teams wants her to.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-07-13 at 02:16 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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