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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Of course you ignore the hundreds of years of islamic influence because such advanced history is beyond you. But your still excusing the behavior of these people.
    In which countries, yo?

    Because like, if we're talking about former colonies -

    https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-u...ted-homophobia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...cy-colonialism
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/11/asia/...ntl/index.html

    Sure, many of these nations may have had their own anti-LGBTQ+ groups/movements as well, but Great Britain and the colonial powers supercharged that shit.

    It's not wonder you say that we can't learn from history, you're making it apparent that you sure as hell haven't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Modern civilization only exists as it does due to the impact of Islamic scholarship.
    And for all its flaws, we can thank them for saving massive stores of knowledge from the Greco-Roman era that would have otherwise been lost in the dark ages.

    https://aeon.co/ideas/arabic-transla...eek-philosophy

  2. #62
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    And ? do you believe that only white people are able to improve themselves? The rest of the wordl does not need to improve themselves because some shitty things happend to them. As i said i find american leftism so very lazy.
    You mean the straw man you made up is lazy. But that's on you.

    Nobody made the racist claim you're making, here. They just pointed out that the American Founding Fathers were mostly a bunch of dickheads who had overall pretty abusive and shitty ideas, and recognizing that fact is a necessary part of understanding history. It doesn't mean people from other cultures weren't also shitty dickheads about things, but the American Founding Fathers do not stand tall among their global peers in this or, really, any regard.

    I mean, the best of them in terms of influential philosophy was arguably Jefferson, who was a hypocrite about pretty much all that philosophy and a rapist to boot.


  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    do you believe that only white people are able to improve themselves?
    Where did you find this strawman?

    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    The rest of the wordl does not need to improve themselves because some shitty things happend to them.
    Literally what do you even mean by this?

    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    As i said i find american leftism so very lazy.
    Repeating an empty statement without clarifying or even describing what you're intending it to mean doesn't make it more true. It's still an empty, false statement each time.

  4. #64
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "These people"?

    Modern civilization only exists as it does due to the impact of Islamic scholarship.

    It's why words like "algebra" exist, derived from Arabic. It's why we still, today, use Arabic numerals.

    Kudos on being blatantly islamophobic for no goddamned reason whatsoever. Pretty sure we're not the ones ignoring Islamic influences.
    Bet he didn't know homosexuality was tolerated in much of the Muslim world until 1818, to boot. But hey that's what you get when you study history as a gestalt rather than only focusing on the good things.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  5. #65
    Do republicans honestly believe the founding fathers didn't enslave, rape, and murder human beings? Or are they fully aware and just want to pretend it's okay?

    I can understand giving people in the past a pass on some things. Hopefully we all grow and learn as the centuries come and go. But, things like rape and murder certainly don't count. They knew full well it was wrong and went along with it, like millions of other humans in history, because it benefited them.

    If slavery, murder, and rape is fine as long as it's hundreds of years ago, then I guess that means the past several thousand years worth of murders were okay too? Did rape just suddenly became wrong a few months ago and it was perfectly fine before then in republican minds? I guess the answer would be 'yes' for Trump supporters given he admitted to doing it.
    Last edited by Blur4stuff; 2021-07-12 at 07:41 PM.

  6. #66
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And for all its flaws, we can thank them for saving massive stores of knowledge from the Greco-Roman era that would have otherwise been lost in the dark ages.

    https://aeon.co/ideas/arabic-transla...eek-philosophy
    Quibble; there was no such thing as the "dark ages". It's an ahistorical term that emerged in the 16th Century and was discarded before the 20th Century in terms of historiography. It basically only reflects Renaissance-era Greco- and Romaphilia, where the Greeks and Romans had to be presented as perfect and everything that came after was crap.

    That quibble aside, the Islamic scholars did save a whole wide swath of myriad really important texts that would have been lost for various reasons; you're absolutely right about that. The "dark ages" are just a personal pet peeve of mine, since the focus of my history degree was the Medieval era, particularly the early Medieval. European society didn't "collapse" into Feudalism, it continued to advance forward, technologically, throughout the period, it simply didn't have the political continuity of a single Sacrum Imperium Romanum that more-or-less ran everything.

    Also we should acknowledge that the Roman Empire didn't end in 476. Rome ended in 1453. Ignoring Byzantium's existence is just an expression of eurocentric racism, basically.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-07-12 at 07:42 PM.


  7. #67
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    Do republicans honestly believe the founding fathers didn't enslave, rape, and murder human beings? Or are they fully aware and just want to pretend it's okay?
    They want you to forget about it and buy into their new myth where the United States is the birthplace of liberty and cradle of "western civilization".
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  8. #68
    Scarab Lord Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    Do republicans honestly believe the founding fathers didn't enslave, rape, and murder human beings? Or are they fully aware and just want to pretend it's okay?
    If they had viewed blacks and natives as human beings in the first place...
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  9. #69
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    European society didn't "collapse" into Feudalism, it continued to advance forward, technologically, throughout the period, it simply didn't have the political continuity of a single Sacrum Imperium Romanum that more-or-less ran everything.
    Plus lacking the administrative ability to maintain its existing infrastructure, let alone continue to build new infrastructure.

    But hey, you could also say the same thing of the US since the Reagan era.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You mean the straw man you made up is lazy. But that's on you.

    Nobody made the racist claim you're making, here. They just pointed out that the American Founding Fathers were mostly a bunch of dickheads who had overall pretty abusive and shitty ideas, and recognizing that fact is a necessary part of understanding history. It doesn't mean people from other cultures weren't also shitty dickheads about things, but the American Founding Fathers do not stand tall among their global peers in this or, really, any regard.

    I mean, the best of them in terms of influential philosophy was arguably Jefferson, who was a hypocrite about pretty much all that philosophy and a rapist to boot.
    That doesnt change the fact they have an important role in modern humanism

  11. #71
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    That doesnt change the fact they have an important role in modern humanism
    Which is what?

    Like, exactly what are their original philosophical contributions? All that shit came from across the Atlantic in the century prior.

    Except maybe Ben Franklin who gets somewhat of a pass for being an early utilitarian.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    That doesnt change the fact they have an important role in modern humanism
    So do a lot of people, good and bad. That doesn't mean we have to ignore the awful things they did/believed. It's not a binary dude, it's not "all good" or "all bad", it's usually a lot of shades of grey.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Bet he didn't know homosexuality was tolerated in much of the Muslim world until 1818, to boot. But hey that's what you get when you study history as a gestalt rather than only focusing on the good things.

    Are you done falsifying history?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Also we should acknowledge that the Roman Empire didn't end in 476. Rome ended in 1453. Ignoring Byzantium's existence is just an expression of eurocentric racism, basically.
    Or, if you consider the reorganization of many of the former Western Roman Empire's territory into the Holy Roman Empire to be a continuation, the argument can be made that the Roman Empire ended in 1806 when it dissolved into Prussia, Austria, and a handful of smaller Germanic states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    If they had viewed blacks and natives as human beings in the first place...
    A lot of them did. They went along with it anyway for what they saw as the greater good. YMMV on whether that's better or worse.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Are you done falsifying history?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

    Homosexual acts are forbidden in traditional Islamic jurisprudence and are liable to different punishments, including stoning and the death penalty,[5][11] depending on the situation and legal school. However, homosexual relationships were generally tolerated in pre-modern Islamic societies,[5][7][8][11][13] and historical records suggest that these laws were invoked infrequently, mainly in cases of rape or other "exceptionally blatant infringement on public morals".[11] Public attitudes toward homosexuality in the Muslim world underwent a marked negative change starting from the 19th century through the gradual spread of Islamic fundamentalist movements such as Salafism and Wahhabism,[15][16][17] and the influence of the sexual notions and restrictive norms prevalent in Europe at the time: a number of Muslim-majority countries have retained criminal penalties for homosexual acts enacted under European colonial rule.[18][19][20][21]
    Again, we know you don't bother to learn any history because you don't think you can learn from it, but one would imagine that since you're not a student of history you might refrain from commenting on it.

    You're a living, breathing Prager-U video right now.

  16. #76
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Are you done falsifying history?
    Have another source.

    Trying to frame bigotry as being entirely a product of the distant past only serves as a mechanism to allow present day people to excuse their complicity in creating and maintaining current bigotry. You know, kind of like how people tell Black people to get over slavery when we still actually have slavery in the US. Lol.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-07-12 at 07:58 PM.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So do a lot of people, good and bad. That doesn't mean we have to ignore the awful things they did/believed. It's not a binary dude, it's not "all good" or "all bad", it's usually a lot of shades of grey.
    You still considerd the basis of your morals a dirty pig?

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Which is what?

    Like, exactly what are their original philosophical contributions? All that shit came from across the Atlantic in the century prior.

    Except maybe Ben Franklin who gets somewhat of a pass for being an early utilitarian.
    Tommy "T" Paine is the only founding father worth a shit and he was an Englishman.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  19. #79
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    That doesnt change the fact they have an important role in modern humanism
    Not particularly, no. They don't. Where the hell are you pulling this? The American Founding Fathers had essentially no unique and new ideas.

    Seriously, name one important principle in humanist thinking that you think was originated by the Founding Fathers of the USA.


  20. #80
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not particularly, no. They don't. Where the hell are you pulling this? The American Founding Fathers had essentially no unique and new ideas.

    Seriously, name one important principle in humanist thinking that you think was originated by the Founding Fathers of the USA.
    The idea that some humans are worth three fifths of other people?
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

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