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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminandjen View Post
    I'm just curious if you guys think Metzen's departure is a major contributing factor in the decline of the lore?
    I think it has less to do with the departure of individual writers (let's face it, those were always pretty weak) and more with their general approach to creating lore these days. Classic was great to me because it simply created a world with a few interesting characters and smaller stories to draw you in but beyond that there were no big heroes and there was no "narrative".

    The more WoW is focused on narratives the worse it gets. The team should be preoccupied with creating an interesting world for us to explore and write our own stories in instead of spending 5 content patches detailing Sylvanas' mental health crisis.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminandjen View Post
    I just finished the Sunwell Trilogy Ultimate Edition and it has an amazing epilogue by Chris Metzen. I'm re-reading Chronicle Volume III, and the first author listed is, you guessed it, Chris Metzen.

    I'm relatively new to Lore and I've read about a dozen of the books in the last 6 months. But just like everyone else, I'm pretty disappointed by BFA & Shadowlands.

    I'm just curious if you guys think Metzen's departure is a major contributing factor in the decline of the lore?
    No. While he brought some good ideas and a ton of passion, most of his ideas were meh at est. Just like most of Blizzards writing from day one. Which is fine. Blizzard is the Summer blockbuster popcorn film of Videogsmes. They not the best scripts, typically have bad acting performances, but they kill at the box office. They aren't going to win any Oscar's, but will win many Box Office draws.

  3. #83
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    WoD is still the most impressive setting for me. The environments and creatures are beautiful. They all got that 80's fantasy vibe that I go completely crazy for, like with the Dark Crystal Netflix show.

    Now seeing this beautiful concept art I'm starting to realise that Draenor is a place Blizzard could have even more fun with. The entire concept and aesthetic is such a stark contrast from Shadowlands it's almost painful.
    The sad thing is, the Fungal Whale? That was just the tip of the iceberg. They wanted to make an entire Zangar Sea zone that you could quest in originally, and do cool underwater stuff. Probably as a way to slowly test the waters (hah) since many people (not myself) had PTSD from the underwater zone in Cataclysm.

    Then you had race stuff like learning more about the history and origin of the ogres and their continent, learning about the Saberon and their culture and where they come from, the Breakers and the Primals, and of course the ancient Apexis who reached heights of power beyond even what we saw with the Arakkoan remnants on Draenor.

    Oh, and Faralohn, which was planned to be its own zone, and also the two capital cities, and the Shattrath raid, and... well, the list goes on.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Says who ? Great games can have great stories. It's also an important component of Role Playing Games.
    Even if the story itself is not the most amazing thing ever written, like most books, it does not have to be a big pile of shit like wow's. Even if the type of game does not suit it well, it can still have a great story. And swtor proved that you could make great stories in a mmorpg.
    And SWTOR also proved that you can kill a game by ruining its gameplay.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    None of the past expansion's had a story that directly tied in with the next one either, and it was perfectly fine. MoP to WoD to Legion was the first time Blizzard attempted to create a narrative that was more than "Thing happens and we gotta go deal with it."

    Classic ends with Naxx, Dark Portal opens so we go to Outland. TBC ends with Sunwell, Lich King attacks the capitol cities so we go to Northrend. Deathwing blows up world so we deal with Deathwing.

    Legion couldn't have happened without Gul'dan 2.0 as they needed specifically him to do what he did. It was just the voice of KJ telling Guldan what to do. KJ could have told some random warlock what to do.

    Also WoD did not have zero impact on our world or story. Garrosh and the Iron Horde were going to invade us through the Dark Portal. It's the same reason why the entirety of TBC happened. Dark Portal opens, bad people trying to get through, we have to stop them.

    So if your issue with WoD is that it was a pointless expansion that didn't tie in to the next one, you should also probably go ahead and dislike Classic, TBC, Wrath, and Cata since none of those were required for the next expansion's story or tied in in any way. Your argument that WoD didn't matter to our timeline is wrong though.
    Yea, by "matter" you literally mean "it happened". Which is fine.

    But it added literally nothing to the lore.
    We did have local stories and all BUT it's an alternative time-line and we were told from the beginning that not everything is as it happened in our timeline.
    So literally every zone, character, storyline, raid, whatever is fan-fic. Adds nothing to the story.

    The fact that the whole alternate timeline was closed down in an allied race recruitment scenario shows how little it was worth in the first place.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The sad thing is, the Fungal Whale? That was just the tip of the iceberg. They wanted to make an entire Zangar Sea zone that you could quest in originally, and do cool underwater stuff. Probably as a way to slowly test the waters (hah) since many people (not myself) had PTSD from the underwater zone in Cataclysm.

    Then you had race stuff like learning more about the history and origin of the ogres and their continent, learning about the Saberon and their culture and where they come from, the Breakers and the Primals, and of course the ancient Apexis who reached heights of power beyond even what we saw with the Arakkoan remnants on Draenor.

    Oh, and Faralohn, which was planned to be its own zone, and also the two capital cities, and the Shattrath raid, and... well, the list goes on.
    Yeah I saw Laurel Austin, a senior artist rave about how deep they went into exploring the Ogre culture. They had all kinds of exotic ogre characters planned but that never really came through.

  7. #87
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Yeah I saw Laurel Austin, a senior artist rave about how deep they went into exploring the Ogre culture. They had all kinds of exotic ogre characters planned but that never really came through.
    That's so depressing. WoD really was a tragedy.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Mag'har playable race?
    Tbh playable Mag'har could have been easily plucked from Outland, especially since they hinted (at the Nagrand cinematic) that it was a terminally dying world. So it would have just made sense that its inhabitants would be trying to flee somewhere.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  9. #89
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Yes Metzen was the soul of wow. Sure he fucked up sometimes but he had way more hits than the current writing staff.

    Even some of the good stuff post MoP (when he left for Overwatch)was written by him. Legion was sourced from a lot of his ideas and writings the BFA Cinimatic was the last thing he wrote for wow however he intended it to be the Alliance finally being proactive instead of reactive. Darn was not part of his ideas he was shocked and disappointing with that addition and apparently most of BFA.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think it has less to do with the departure of individual writers (let's face it, those were always pretty weak) and more with their general approach to creating lore these days. Classic was great to me because it simply created a world with a few interesting characters and smaller stories to draw you in but beyond that there were no big heroes and there was no "narrative".

    The more WoW is focused on narratives the worse it gets. The team should be preoccupied with creating an interesting world for us to explore and write our own stories in instead of spending 5 content patches detailing Sylvanas' mental health crisis.
    The thing is that you can do both.

    Warcraft has an interesting world on its own, but how they tell stories in it is clunky. Every expansion story seems hindered by "something". When the writers and quest-story designers are allowed to tell a full story, it can be enjoyable. But lately, it feels like surface-level B-plots being drip-fed with little in between.

    The story of Legion to BfA to SL honestly could've been one story in three chapters. The overarching campaigns are essentially a trilogy about Sylvanas' fate and exploring the cosmos of Warcraft. In the same way, one could describe the game leading up to Cata as Thrall's awakening. Or Mop/WoD being a character story of Garrosh and orcs.
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  11. #91
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    however he intended it to be the Alliance finally being proactive instead of reactive. Darn was not part of his ideas he was shocked and disappointing with that addition and apparently most of BFA.
    got a source on that? cause i dont think he would throw his pervious co-workers under the bus like that...

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Tbh playable Mag'har could have been easily plucked from Outland, especially since they hinted (at the Nagrand cinematic) that it was a terminally dying world. So it would have just made sense that its inhabitants would be trying to flee somewhere.
    But that's not the point. The guy I replied to said nothing that happened in WoD has mattered since. Saying what they could have done instead is irrelevant.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think it has less to do with the departure of individual writers (let's face it, those were always pretty weak) and more with their general approach to creating lore these days. Classic was great to me because it simply created a world with a few interesting characters and smaller stories to draw you in but beyond that there were no big heroes and there was no "narrative".

    The more WoW is focused on narratives the worse it gets. The team should be preoccupied with creating an interesting world for us to explore and write our own stories in instead of spending 5 content patches detailing Sylvanas' mental health crisis.
    ThAts true

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    And SWTOR also proved that you can kill a game by ruining its gameplay.
    Content was more a problem than gameplay. I clearly enjoyed their classes way more than the ones on wow during legion / bfa.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    The fact that the whole alternate timeline was closed down in an allied race recruitment scenario shows how little it was worth in the first place.
    They do this all of the time. Remember at the end of Cata when the aspects and, by extension, the dragonflights lost their special powers? And then they just... didn't?
    Ysera is still somehow the keeper of the Emerald Dream and is classified in the same level as the wild gods. Bronze dragons still capable of doing time things, albeit weaker. Not only that, but Murozond still apparently is supposed to happen so like... That's a thing.

  16. #96
    Epic! Oakshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    actually his last wife before kate hunter did actually leave him after coming out as lesbian.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Yes, his first wife left him, and also he was never "born again" he just started getting into religion to get closer to his wife, which he did, until she became lesbian and left him, to then later meet kate hunter and marry her.
    https://www.frogpants.com/blog/2019/...3-i-am-content

    1:02:30
    I was going off his context. The way he worded it inferred it was Kat. And I was like "uh... no?". But thank you for the clarification Fel.

  17. #97
    It's funny that some people refuse to acknowledge how important Metzen was, especially when we have his lore going against the new one in this very patch.

    Just look how everyone is talking about Garrosh cutscene and now compare to Sylvanas. Garrosh wasn't touched by the new team, they kept the Metzen version intact, Garrosh in Shadowlands is the same we saw in Mists of Pandaria, his cutscene was just a cameo. But on the other hand look at Sylvanas, which's getting development, and how people are reacting to it.

    Nobody is complaining or is angry about the Garrosh cutscene, and that's because it's the same Garrosh that Metzen developed back in the day.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Shadowlands despoiled whatever was left of the character, even choosing to ignore BfA. It would be hard for me to agree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    About the topic at hand, Metzen had good concepts but as a writer... eh.
    How is she different from how she had always been?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    It's funny that some people refuse to acknowledge how important Metzen was, especially when we have his lore going against the new one in this very patch.

    Just look how everyone is talking about Garrosh cutscene and now compare to Sylvanas. Garrosh wasn't touched by the new team, they kept the Metzen version intact, Garrosh in Shadowlands is the same we saw in Mists of Pandaria, his cutscene was just a cameo. But on the other hand look at Sylvanas, which's getting development, and how people are reacting to it.

    Nobody is complaining or is angry about the Garrosh cutscene, and that's because it's the same Garrosh that Metzen developed back in the day.
    Looking at the gamer scene in general, I feel like the answer is more like Garrosh being a hyper manly muscle man on steroids whose entire goal in life was to creat an ethno-state for his people.

  19. #99
    I think so. Metzen was great at world building but not the greatest at the narratives. The current writers want to write complex narratives but are unable to build a world around it or push things forward. It turns out world building is more important in an open world mmorpg.

    IMO the current writers should be relegated to writing quest branches and Blizzard should have an opening for someone that can actually craft a fantasy world.

  20. #100
    I just had this thought spring into my mind:

    How would Metzen keep voicing Thrall when he's starting a competing company? i mean, Dreamhaven is supposed to rival Blizzard.
    Or, is he working on another thing and i'm just mixing things up?

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