9.1: was doubling down on the Maw a good idea?

[Schizoide]

There's a fair bit of new maw content in 9.1, the covenant invasions twice per week is the big one but also new rares, treasures, and the rift phase.

Note you do still drop stygia on death in the maw, just not korthia. But I agree, mounting and no eye is a huge improvement. Still isn't fun, but I don't absolutely hate going in there any more.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

There's a fair bit of new maw content in 9.1, the covenant invasions twice per week is the big one but also new rares, treasures, and the rift phase.

Ah, I was unaware of that. Thought it was mainly just Korthia stuff with a couple of maw dailies. I guess it would just be players being sick of the area even though they got rid of the negatives?

[Schizoide]

It's still a boring monochrome grey zone with tons of high-health mobs you can't avoid and very little actual content, even if you can mount and there's no eye. It still sucks, it just sucks somewhat less. Classic patch X.1. Patch X.2 won't have any Maw stuff at all.

Hopefully in the future there won't be any more "experimentation" with entire zones where players can't fucking mount either.

[Ivarr]

I respect Blizzard for coming up with something like the Maw, even though it didn't really work out the way they wanted it to.

The Maw is Blizzard taking the common criticism that WoW feels like a themepark (especially since Legion) where players move from attraction to attraction without anything standing in their way.

So it makes sense for them to want to put a zone in the game that feels hostile.

The attempt stumbled in several ways:

- The hostility was a hard restriction rather than a real danger.
- Players got stuck at the entrance and didn't get to experience much else.
- Players didn't feel lost and helpless.
- The zone couldn't yield too high rewards without making it feel mandatory to players who didn't like this content.


Probably the biggest flaw, in my view, is letting the players drop at the same starting position, a safe sanctuary where they could chew at the content from there. This completely undermined the threat of the Maw.

It would be more exciting if players entered the Maw like in the Seething Shore but with less control over their landing site. Players are dropped in a random location and they get to steer their parachute a bit to avoid the worst nearby spots. Dying would result in being dragged back into Oribos and going for another try.

The idea of being dropped in a random spot of a hostile territory immediately makes the player feel vulnerable. They don't get to stage a base camp. They don't get to flee back to where they came from. They immediately have to work with what they got. Didn't drop near a quest you wanted to do? Tough, you now will have to do the quest that you can reach from where you landed. Dropped far away from your friend? Tough shit, find a way to reach each other. Dropped near a group of hostile players? Too bad.

Blizzard played it too safe still. The other zones are still the usual themepark stuff. Mostly due to the lack of liminal space between the 'attractions'. This means a zone like the Maw can really screw over players in all kinds of unpleasant ways, while still being enjoyable because of it.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

It's still a boring monochrome grey zone with tons of high-health mobs you can't avoid and very little actual content, even if you can mount and there's no eye. It still sucks, it just sucks somewhat less. Classic patch X.1. Patch X.2 won't have any Maw stuff at all.

And hopefully in the future there won't be any more "experimentation" with zones where players can't fucking mount.

Ah, fair enough. I honestly never did any maw stuff to get a really good idea of what it was like. The rep rewards didn't interest me at all to bother.

[epigramx]

That's always the case. Patch X.1 is in development even before X.0 releases, so there's no way to reverse course and correct the major problems in X.0. That typically comes in patch X.2.

It's not even that; it's more of that. They entire expansion is preplanned and every single patch of it is either completely done or outlined on how it will be done so it can change very little while it's still being polished.

It explains extremities like how people hated the follower system of WoD and they still doubled down with making it even more grindish with the shipyard toward the very end of the expansion.

[Schizoide]

It would be more exciting if players entered the Maw like in the Seething Shore but with less control over their landing site. Players are dropped in a random location and they get to steer their parachute a bit to avoid the worst nearby spots. Dying would result in being dragged back into Oribos and going for another try.

I agree, that could be pretty cool so long as it wasn't mandatory.

[Zyrinx]

There's a fair bit of new maw content in 9.1, the covenant invasions twice per week is the big one but also new rares, treasures, and the rift phase.

Note you do still drop stygia on death in the maw, just not korthia. But I agree, mounting and no eye is a huge improvement. Still isn't fun, but I don't absolutely hate going in there any more.

Hah damned with faint praise.

Did they fix the..... Feature?..... Whereby phasing prevented you from using group finder to group for maw objectives without going out of zone?

[Kiivar86]

I'm actually enjoying Korthia more than I expected, despite similar aesthetic. But otherwise...

The covenant assaults are either an incredible slog (don't know about anyone else but the Night Fae one took me ages) or are otherwise buggy (looking at you Necrolord) or just...eh (Kyrian). Only the Venthyr was any good, I feel, and that chiefly due to being in a small area so fairly easy to finish (the final "boss" was bad though).

Is nice not to have the Eye problem in there though.

[Schizoide]

Did they fix the..... Feature?..... Whereby phasing prevented you from using group finder to group for maw objectives without going out of zone?

I don't think so. Wowhead would have posted about it seventeen times if they did.

[Sondrelk]

I respect Blizzard for coming up with something like the Maw, even though it didn't really work out the way they wanted it to.

I think the issue is as you alluded to, that the zone is difficult for the wrong ways in a sense. And sadly many of those problems are the same as other problems in WoW, that this is an online MMO, not a single player game. In an online game you need to ensure players can stay relatively close in progress. If someone has to stop playing for whatever reason, or otherwise fails for reasons out of their control (Loss of internet connection for instance) then that should not be a permanent setback, otherwise you are punishing players for reason out of their control. Whereas in a single player game the pace is set by the player, not the collective.

Thinking about it I almost feel like the problem with the Maw is that Blizzard didnt do enough things differently. As you said you still have safezones, you could still mount even if onyl with a specific mount. In general the zone felt more like any other zone, except with extra mechanics bolted on top, instead of a new take on a zone.

You mention dropping in with parachute, but I think Blizzard should have gone further. Add Torghast abilities, make running into the Maw something which is slightly different each time. Many Torghast abilities feel like they would work better in open world content anyways.
The Eye of the Jailer is a mechanic that I think best exemplifies the problem with the Maw, in that it wasnt really much more than a check to prevent players from doing all the content each day instead of its intended effect as a ramping difficulty curve that incentivized smart play.


In general I feel the main problem with the Maw is that it really should have been either a zone or a feature, and instead it ended up in a weird deadzone between them. Being too obtuse and restrictive for a zone, but also not detailed and deep enough for a feature.

And of course the lack of rewards, which in a way is a problem that is related to it being a zone instead of a feature. And in that regard the 9.1 changes are definitely welcome as it makes it more appealing to spend time in the Maw on the offchance of an actual reward that isnt just making the Maw easier.

[arkanon]

Sooner or later after multiple tests, the rat in the maze will catch on and just wait 15 minutes at the start until the scientist gives up and lifts the walls to let the rat reach the cheese.

Why spend 200 hours grinding when it's current when you can get it in the next patch by spending 30 minutes? The players have seen this happen again and again since Legion.

Yeah not a bad analogy to be honest. I just keep coming back to the same thing - everyone is so busy comparing quantity of content that they don't seem to stop and think about quality at all. Maybe im just old and boring, but if a game doesn't grab my attention and hold it - if im not really enjoying the game I am playing, i simply stop playing.

There were times when i 'stuck it out' when maybe i was playing a class / spec that wasn't my favorite, for the sake of the raid team and guild, but I ALWAYS had an alt I absolutely loved that I put my time into outside of raid / raid prep. I have played all classes to 60, and can honestly say not a single one of them lit any kind of fire in me at all - not even smoldering embers. I just do not enjoy the current iteration of the classes, and the core gameplay loop is not something I enjoy.

An analogy I use often is race tracks - Blizzard are so focused on building the most amazing race track, with complicated twists and turns, multiple pathways, shortcuts, ups and downs, twists and turns. There is always something going on at the racetrack - fireworks, rides, events, shows, food carts, and always someone to race, with countless classes with drastically different horsepower and handling, all on the track at the same time - endless things to do! Only problem is, we are driving around the track in mums 1990 Honda civic with a 1300 and auto tranny stuck in second, with the handbrake half on, flat tires and a broken windshield. The fast cars hate the slow cars and think they slow them down, the slow cars hate the fast cars because they dominate everything.

Each expansion they give us new stickers and decals for our cars - new shiny rims and a big sound system, but after driving it for a little while, I realize its still mums Honda civic.

[Archmage Alodi]

Hah damned with faint praise.

Did they fix the..... Feature?..... Whereby phasing prevented you from using group finder to group for maw objectives without going out of zone?

Yes, it's gone.

[Bee76]

Well Blizzard designed content based around the worst and most dislked xpac features aka the maw and Torghast. Well there is no way you can avoid both. In Raid, you will find Anima Powers -.- in M+ aswell. Seems Blizz want to get rid of some more players. Ofc atm there is still some honeymoon left...but soon...

Storywise its fitting. Maybe next time they wanna make content that fits storywise and dont annoy large parts of their playerbase...

[exsanguinate]

TBC > Retail. I logged in to try the new stuff and lasted a whole 13 minutes.

Then went back to TBC,

Same. Just couldnt stand it.

[liqwidram]

as a druid / shaman I dont know what you mean about no mount in the maw... bwahahahaha

[AboikoS]

The Maw sucks, Korthia sucks, Torghast sucks.

Nobody likes these areas, or the associated systems.

*As a returning player from Legion to 9.1*

i actually like Korthia, not only because of its catch-up gear but its been fun so far. I understand killing rares and searching for chests over and over again can become boring after some time, but before that happens i'll probably be geared enough to raid/pvp.
Maw could've been better i agree but its not bad, i only wish it was more challenging and rewarding at same time, cuz well...its The Maw afterall, you should feel threatened in there especially when running alone, but i can understand why they couldnt do that (casuals, solo players like me etc).

And Torghast...damn this one is the worst thing i've experianced in this game in a long time. Doing it feels like playing Hack & Slash game not actual RPG and as a mostly PvP player/casual PvE it really pisses me off that im forced to do it cuz otherwise i wont stay competetive (legendaries).


Other than that this xpac doesnt feel that bad, at least imo. I greatly enjoy all the unpruned abilities, PvP would finally be fun once again if only they did something with the amount of ridiculous burst damage, casual/solo PvE as i said seems fine, dunno about raids tho since im not yet geared enough to give them a try but we'll see.

[Dug]

It's a lot better now with mounting, covenant assaults and korthia.

[Nnyco]

Sense of Community
Challenging Dungeons
Great Raids
Arena PvP is enjoyable
Getting loot feels good knowing there's no 'better' version of it at higher Mythic+
Profession Crafting is actually useful
Beautiful zones, good quest writing

All of your points are hillarious.

Sense of community? - Find a guild to play with, same as in tbc. Your own fault if you just pug. The same will happen in classic. (Also classic community is known to be toxic as hell.)
Challenging dungeons? - We got em in retail too, infact more challenging.
Great Raids? - Again as previous point.
Tbc arena enjoyable? - Ha good one.
Getting loot feels good knowing theres no 'better' version? - Guess what if you do highest level you get highest loot. Its like complainin in tbc you do normal dungeon and you say "why bother, theres better loot in heroic". Your own fault you not do the content that gives highest loot.
Proffesions crafting is actually useful? Guess you didnt hear about legendaries.
Beatiful zones, good quest writing? Nothin like bladeedge and hellfire aaaah the beauty. Also lol story was a mess in tbc.

[Lochton]

I feel like they were so far in development that they couldn't backpeddle out of more Maw content following player backlash to the Maw since launch.

Either that or they knew the Maw was disliked and forged ahead anyways - either scenario wouldn't surprise me. How are you finding assaults etc in 9.1?

Well. The story kinda opened up and demanded we explore the Maw more before being able to move forward. It was an obvious direction.