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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Yes. This article expanded a bit on that.

    'We're going to lose fast': U.S. Air Force held a war game that started with a Chinese biological attack

    The interesting part of the whole exercise.

    In the most recent war game, the Pentagon tested the impact of potential capabilities and military concepts that are still on the drawing board in many cases. The Blue Team, which represented U.S. forces, adopted a more defensive and dispersed posture less reliant on large, vulnerable bases, ports and aircraft carriers in a conflict with the Red Team, which represented China.

    The strategy strongly favored large numbers of long-range, mobile strike systems, to include anti-ship cruise missile batteries, mobile rocket artillery systems, unmanned mini-submarines, mines and robust surface-to-air missile batteries for air defense. A premium was put on surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities for both early warning and accurate intelligence to enable quicker decisions by U.S. policymakers, and a more capable command-and-control system to coordinate the actions of more dispersed forces.

    “We created a force that had resiliency at its core, and the Red Team looked at that force and knew that it would take a tremendous amount of firepower to knock it out,” said Hinote. The biggest insight of the war game, he said, was revealed when he talked afterward with the Red Team leader, who played the role of the PLA’s top general.

    “The Red Team leader is the most experienced and aggressive officer in these war games across the Defense Department, and when he initially looked at the resiliency of our defensive posture both in Taiwan and the region, he said, ‘No, I’m not going to attack,’” recalled Hinote. “If we can design a force that creates that level of uncertainty and causes Chinese leaders to question whether they can accomplish their goals militarily, I think that’s what deterrence looks like in the future.”


    The lessons learned from these exercises were less Abrams and F-16s, and more missiles, smart sea and land mines, and long-range land cruise missiles. From the recent flooding in China, we know that China's 87,000 dams are vulnerable, and there is no way that China can defend that many targets from cruise missile attacks.

  2. #242
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    It basically had no details....

    Without knowing the rules of engagement, or the force structures, or the exact scenario, there is little to learn from the article.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Yes. This article expanded a bit on that.

    'We're going to lose fast': U.S. Air Force held a war game that started with a Chinese biological attack

    The interesting part of the whole exercise.



    The lessons learned from these exercises were less Abrams and F-16s, and more missiles, smart sea and land mines, and long-range land cruise missiles. From the recent flooding in China, we know that China's 87,000 dams are vulnerable, and there is no way that China can defend that many targets from cruise missile attacks.
    Tanks and tactical land based aircraft have long had little place in a war against China. Really, the Army (and to a lesser extent the Air Force) would be there to ensure the US would endure casualties should China attempt to invade Taiwan. If the US had enough time to move heavy armor to Taiwan then the Army would be able to defend the beaches. The Chinese military would be facing the same issues of bases being targeted that the US would, so their local superiority may be fleeting. A smart US commander would also use this time to go on the offensive and take all of China's manned outposts in the SCS.

    Also, the confirmed use of offensive biological warfare would likely result in the US retaliating with nuclear strikes.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    "reeducation doesn't count as genocide" uuuuh you sure about that?
    Yeah, use those children's deaths to stick it to china.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I really don't understand why they think trying to insult the West as a deflection tactic would work on people that regularly criticise the West anyway. Lol.

    Some people do have consistent ethical principles, y'all.
    I'd like to meet someone who does one day.

    Being ethically consistent wouldnt be standing side by side with racists to condemn china, repeating their claims without due diligence etc. And yeah it includes looking at ourselves and our allies, and not supporting them when they do their own shitty things. But the discourse these days begins and ends with China when it comes to the oppression of muslims.

    Nobody at all is willing to address the biases in the reporting about this issue at all, how can you expect me to believe anybody is being morally consistent when they are repeating propaganda from a guy who said it was his god given mission to destroy china. Like someone in China could do the exact same spin about Guantanamo.

    Anyway cant say I'm enjoying the rebraded cold war, we have serious stuff to focus on and instigating conflict isnt going to help anyone but those who can make money or gain power from it. If we wanna condemn this shit fine, but condemnations that come from countries that ban aspects of Islam or have entire industries predicated on the captive labour of predominantly minority groups and had also spent the last 20 years destabilizing the middle east etc. doesnt really carry a lot of water
    Last edited by Josuke; 2021-07-27 at 03:57 AM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    Yeah, use those children's deaths to stick it to china.
    because China sure is totally above doing that to a minority population...?

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    because China sure is totally above doing that to a minority population...?
    Western nations arent above it either clearly.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    Western nations arent above it either clearly.
    so that makes everything ok then? is that what your saying? that since every country that has ever existed has done heinous things and that means no one has the right to criticize other's for their misdeeds? even while acknowledging their own failings? what wacky world view is this? I hope you realize this means you can't say jack shit about the west, right? can you not see how short sighted and self defeating this argument is?
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2021-07-27 at 03:45 PM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    so that makes everything ok then? is that what your saying? that since every country that has ever existed has done heinous things and that means no one has the right to criticize other's for their misdeeds? even while acknowledging their own failings? what wacky world view is this? I hope you realize this means you can't say jack shit about the west, right? can you not see how short sighted and self defeating this argument is?
    No? What I'm saying is what's the point in one murderer condemning another? Canada is hardly acknowledging their own failings, people seem more worried about churches burning down.

    I'm quite happy for people who have demonstrated a capacity of viewing Chinese people as human to criticize China and are doing it out of a concern for other, but I dont really have time for those who are doing it for their own agendas or to try defeat the Chinese or w.e.

    Every country has done heinous things and there are those who try to ameliorate the impacts that theyve had and do good and those who downplay them or even wish theyd happen again. I know who I want to be critical of issues like these and it's not the people who downplay the attrocities committed by their own people.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    No? What I'm saying is what's the point in one murderer condemning another? Canada is hardly acknowledging their own failings, people seem more worried about churches burning down.

    I'm quite happy for people who have demonstrated a capacity of viewing Chinese people as human to criticize China and are doing it out of a concern for other, but I dont really have time for those who are doing it for their own agendas or to try defeat the Chinese or w.e.

    Every country has done heinous things and there are those who try to ameliorate the impacts that theyve had and do good and those who downplay them or even wish theyd happen again. I know who I want to be critical of issues like these and it's not the people who downplay the attrocities committed by their own people.
    again your entire argument is "shut up! clean your room before talking about the mess in the neighbors yard."

    also I'm downplaying the atrocities of the Canadian boarding schools by bringing up how they were a part of a systemic attempt at genocide? huuuuuh??? like, just say you don't want people criticizing China so I don't have to bother taking you seriously. because when I criticize China I'm talking about it's government, not the people living there....
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2021-07-27 at 04:01 PM.

  9. #249
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    No? What I'm saying is what's the point in one murderer condemning another? Canada is hardly acknowledging their own failings, people seem more worried about churches burning down.
    Err, what?

    You don't get Canadian news at all, do you? Canada's been pretty badly hit by the residential school revelations, and there's been massive calls for meaningful penalties and a lot of public outcry. The new Governor General was likely chosen at least in part as a statement against those abuses. This is all over and above a more than C$3b class action settlement on the matter arranged back in 2006. The biggest issue we're having isn't getting official recognition and shame, which is already achieved, it's getting the Catholic Church to acknowledge their complicity and participation in some concrete manner.

    Get the hell out of here with that "hardly acknowledging their own failings" garbage.


  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    again your entire argument is "shut up! clean your room before talking about the mess in the neighbors yard."

    also I'm downplaying the atrocities of the Canadian boarding schools by bringing up how they were a part of a systemic attempt at genocide? huuuuuh??? like, just say you don't want people criticizing China so I don't have to bother taking you seriously.
    How come jordan Peterson says it and he gets millions of dollars yet if we try to actually apply to suddenly its wrong?

    My entire argument is maybe we shouldn't let war hawks and racists be the vocal ones on these issues because it's totally not going to go well.

    Was it not clear I wasnt talking about you? I was speaking about the approach to China in general, not attacking you personally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Err, what?

    You don't get Canadian news at all, do you? Canada's been pretty badly hit by the residential school revelations, and there's been massive calls for meaningful penalties and a lot of public outcry. The new Governor General was likely chosen at least in part as a statement against those abuses. This is all over and above a more than C$3b class action settlement on the matter arranged back in 2006. The biggest issue we're having isn't getting official recognition and shame, which is already achieved, it's getting the Catholic Church to acknowledge their complicity and participation in some concrete manner.

    Get the hell out of here with that "hardly acknowledging their own failings" garbage.
    Calls for meaningful penalties. Let me know when people actually face those penalties. 3 billion dollar settlement for how many affected families and communities? It really seems like piss all in the face of over a thousand dead children, let alone all the other shit that was inflicted upon them. This is the same shit that happens everytime an attrocitie is uncovered, until there is some proper meaningful attempts to fix the damage caused and the people responsible are held accountable, it's all just a big show.
    Last edited by Josuke; 2021-07-27 at 04:09 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    How come jordan Peterson says it and he gets millions of dollars yet if we try to actually apply to suddenly its wrong?
    huh???? I'm saying that argument sucks. I'll repeat myself: that argument is dog shit!

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    huh???? I'm saying that argument sucks. I'll repeat myself: that argument is dog shit!
    It's not really my argument though, I just thought it was funny. My argument is: we shouldn't let war hawks and racists be the vocal ones on these issues because it's totally not going to go well.

  13. #253
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    How come jordan Peterson says it and he gets millions of dollars yet if we try to actually apply to suddenly its wrong?
    Jordan Peterson is in the business of shilling Nazi conspiracy nonsense to an audience hungry for such nonsense. Answers both parts of that question.

    Calls for meaningful penalties. Let me know when people actually face those penalties. 3 billion dollar settlement for how many affected families and communities?
    86,000 living people. And sure, it's probably not enough, but it was a settlement, which means it was agreed to by both sides.

    And now, there's a push for more. Rightfully. Which is supported by the government. So I don't know what you're talking about when you say we're "hardly acknowledging our own failings".

    It really seems like piss all in the face of over a thousand dead children, let alone all the other shit that was inflicted upon them. This is the same shit that happens everytime an attrocitie is uncovered, until there is some proper meaningful attempts to fix the damage caused and the people responsible are held accountable, it's all just a big show.
    That's literally occurring. You either have completely unreasonable standards or are completely misinformed about the subject.


  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Jordan Peterson is in the business of shilling Nazi conspiracy nonsense to an audience hungry for such nonsense. Answers both parts of that question.



    86,000 living people. And sure, it's probably not enough, but it was a settlement, which means it was agreed to by both sides.

    And now, there's a push for more. Rightfully. Which is supported by the government. So I don't know what you're talking about when you say we're "hardly acknowledging our own failings".



    That's literally occurring. You either have completely unreasonable standards or are completely misinformed about the subject.
    Yeah it was a joke.

    I also live in a post colonial country and while monetary compensation and apologies from politicians are nice, they're token gestures in comparison to the damage they was done and continues to be propagated by colonialism.

    I'll change my tune when we see results how about that? I've just seen how this plays out in post colonial countries and the reality is for most indigenous people it changes nothing.

    You literally said you're struggling to get the catholic church to even acknowledge the fact they're complicit.

    I have reasonable standards, they're just not in line with the typical liberal, token gestures. I'm informed enough to know that many conservatives arent exactly in agreement with you. They're getting egg on their face which is funny, but they is still a not insignificant portion of canadians who are genuinely more upset by churches being burned than dead indigenous children

  15. #255
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    Yeah it was a joke.

    I also live in a post colonial country and while monetary compensation and apologies from politicians are nice, they're token gestures in comparison to the damage they was done and continues to be propagated by colonialism.

    I'll change my tune when we see results how about that? I've just seen how this plays out in post colonial countries and the reality is for most indigenous people it changes nothing.
    I mean, you're just admitting to not understanding what's going on in Canada, here.

    You literally said you're struggling to get the catholic church to even acknowledge the fact they're complicit.
    It's hard when they're, y'know, not located in Canada and not beholden to our government.

    I'm of the position if they won't, then the Canadian Government can bring a civil suit in absentia, and start seizing Catholic properties to pay off whatever penalties are assigned. It's not like the Church can pick up and move land back to the Vatican.

    I'm informed enough to know that many conservatives arent exactly in agreement with you. They're getting egg on their face which is funny, but they is still a not insignificant portion of canadians who are genuinely more upset by churches being burned than dead indigenous children
    They're also rapidly becoming irrelevant. Singh and the NDP are currently polling as the #2 party in Canada, if another election were called. The Conservatives are also facing internal crises of leadership as the old Reform and Progressive Conservative factions in-fight, in ways that just might mean the party splits again (which would guarantee they remain irrelevant).

    Like I said; you're not informed.


  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I mean, you're just admitting to not understanding what's going on in Canada, here.



    It's hard when they're, y'know, not located in Canada and not beholden to our government.

    I'm of the position if they won't, then the Canadian Government can bring a civil suit in absentia, and start seizing Catholic properties to pay off whatever penalties are assigned. It's not like the Church can pick up and move land back to the Vatican.



    They're also rapidly becoming irrelevant. Singh and the NDP are currently polling as the #2 party in Canada, if another election were called. The Conservatives are also facing internal crises of leadership as the old Reform and Progressive Conservative factions in-fight, in ways that just might mean the party splits again (which would guarantee they remain irrelevant).

    Like I said; you're not informed.
    Whatever man of canada somehow bucks the trend I'll be surprised.

    Who said making this right would be easy? And yeah I hope your government also takes that position.

    I mean the conservative parties here are in shambles too, they're not a direct threat right now, but you can't say that conservative thinking is becoming irrelevant because of the current state of the party seems a bit short sighted. They're far away from power right now which is nice, but that probably wont always be the case.

    You guys had a conservative government for awhile before Trudeau right? I'm guessing the former leader left before or after the election Trudeau was elected, and tore a rift in the party who had rallied behind the winning ticket. Now its leadership struggle after leadership struggle?

    I checked I wasn't that far off lol, a very similar thing happened here in NZ except our prime minister seems to have made enough money for his friends and jumped ship about 6 months out from the election. Our conservative party has been in disarray since. I'm not underestimating conservatives in general though and I'm seeing a lot of people being pulled further to the right, despite the fact the party that represents their interests not being functional. Those are those people I worry about, not just the politicians.

    I'm not compeltely informed no, I'm definitely not an exper t on canada but I have family and friends there, I'm not compeltely ignorant either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I mean, you're just admitting to not understanding what's going on in Canada, here.



    It's hard when they're, y'know, not located in Canada and not beholden to our government.

    I'm of the position if they won't, then the Canadian Government can bring a civil suit in absentia, and start seizing Catholic properties to pay off whatever penalties are assigned. It's not like the Church can pick up and move land back to the Vatican.



    They're also rapidly becoming irrelevant. Singh and the NDP are currently polling as the #2 party in Canada, if another election were called. The Conservatives are also facing internal crises of leadership as the old Reform and Progressive Conservative factions in-fight, in ways that just might mean the party splits again (which would guarantee they remain irrelevant).

    Like I said; you're not informed.
    Look I will give you this, if this was happening in the states, the response would be worse. I can already see the public debates about how dead children was good actually.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    It basically had no details....

    Without knowing the rules of engagement, or the force structures, or the exact scenario, there is little to learn from the article.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tanks and tactical land based aircraft have long had little place in a war against China. Really, the Army (and to a lesser extent the Air Force) would be there to ensure the US would endure casualties should China attempt to invade Taiwan. If the US had enough time to move heavy armor to Taiwan then the Army would be able to defend the beaches. The Chinese military would be facing the same issues of bases being targeted that the US would, so their local superiority may be fleeting. A smart US commander would also use this time to go on the offensive and take all of China's manned outposts in the SCS.

    Also, the confirmed use of offensive biological warfare would likely result in the US retaliating with nuclear strikes.
    US does not have any bases in Taiwan. So the nearest support would have to come from Japan or Guam. The same issue that make amphibious landing difficult in Taiwan, the lack of accessible beach heads, also make it difficult to reinforce Taiwan from the sea. All the major ports are located on the Strait of Taiwan side. The first step in the of a China invasion of Taiwan would be to bomb all the major runways. So that route is closed also.

    The strategy that make the most sense to me is to deter China from attacking Taiwan in the first place by increasing Taiwan’s capability to hit high impact targets in mainland China. In the past, Taiwan had concentrated on defense and their ability to strike the mainland was limited to the southern coast of China. Taiwan has had long range cruise missile technology since 2004, and chose not to mass produce any out of fear of antagonizing China. Obviously that strategy was not working.

    With the introduction of the Yun Feng last year, Taiwan’s capability to strike mainland critical targets increased to cover all of central and western China. Which put tens of thousands of dams, chemical and power plants, including nuclear power plants, and major Chinese cities within striking range. Taiwan’s ability to damage China has increased exponentially.

    The problem is that Taiwan started late in mass producing their long range cruise missiles. The US can accelerate this by selling Tomahawk cruise missiles to Taiwan. At the current cost, 1,000 Tomahawk cruise missiles would cost around 2 billion dollars, or 20% of Taiwan’s current annual defense budget. That would increase the range of Taiwan’s porcupine defense all the way to northern China. Also bigger payloads and stealth capability meant more damage and less chance of interception.

  18. #258
    Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
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    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.
    Pfft nobody is going to get mad at Taiwan for taking counter-measures in response to a Chinese invasion.
    Let's spread optimism and defeat pessimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.
    Taiwan can not win a war against China. What they can do is make the cost of winning the war for China very high.

    Define kill shitload of civilians?

    The Inner Mongolian twin dam failures this year destroyed 22 bridges, completely undermined a major highway and flood 22,000 hectares of fertile farmlands. Yet the Chinese claimed no human casualties.

    The Henan province flood which hit Zhengzhou, the provincial capital of 12 million people, according to the Chinese only killed 35 people. They were lying btw. They conveniently forgot the 4 km long traffic tunnel with 6 lanes in each direction which was completely flooded in about 5 minutes. That event alone probably killed 6,000. Also, Zhengzhou was caught unaware. The Chinese blew up one dam and opened another one to prevent catastrophic collapse without telling the downstream region until 24 hours later.

    The point is that Taiwan can target dams to create economic havoc and flood 75% of PLA bases in central China while minimizing casualties.

    Keeping in mind, Taiwan will only attack these soft targets in response to an attack from China. They won't be the aggressor.

    Also, I just don't see how China can use their cruise missiles and perform aerial bombs without hitting Taiwan's civilian targets.

    Tit for tat.

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