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  1. #301
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    MAD doesnt work if all you can do is destroy a dam. pretty sure dam busting is a war crime too. and if you start doing that your international standing goes to 0.

    All available weaponry that survived an initial attack would be aimed at ships crossing the strait anyway.
    So you believe there is no way to stop the CCP from getting what they want? Taiwan just has to let China conquer and then erase Taiwanese society/culture because it would reduce Taiwan's international standing if they fight back against a tyrannical aggressor? Why should they care about their "standing" in that case? If the world doesn't want to stop China from conquering Taiwan then it's not like the world will save their society afterwards. It'll be too late at that point because the CCP does a lot of stuff that isn't easily reversible.

    If the CCP ends up killing zero Taiwanese civilians and doesn't destroy any civilian infrastructure at all then I could say a dam attack is unwarranted, but if the CCP kills any civilians and/or destroys any civilian infrastructure then they can't complain when Taiwan does the same thing to them in their war.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-07-30 at 11:06 PM.
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  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    MAD doesnt work if all you can do is destroy a dam. pretty sure dam busting is a war crime too. and if you start doing that your international standing goes to 0.

    All available weaponry that survived an initial attack would be aimed at ships crossing the strait anyway.
    Great Britain destroyed Mohne and Eder dams during operation Chastise in WWII. If they had their way, during the operation they would have destroyed another 4 dams - Lister, Ennepe, Sorpe and Diemel. The subsequent flooding destroyed power stations, factories, roads, bridges, and pumping stations for miles around. In addition, gas, electricity, and water supplies were severely interrupted. The casualties from the flooding totaled 1,341.

    One of the protocol of the Geneva Convention does prohibit attacking dams, unless the dams are in your own territory to keep them from falling into the enemy's hand. However, Taiwan never signed on to the Geneva Convention. China did though.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2021-07-30 at 09:05 PM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Great Britain destroyed Mohne and Eder dams during operation Chastise in WWII. If they had their way, during the operation they would have destroyed another 4 dams - Lister, Ennepe, Sorpe and Diemel. The subsequent flooding destroyed power stations, factories, roads, bridges, and pumping stations for miles around. In addition, gas, electricity, and water supplies were severely interrupted. The casualties from the flooding totaled 1,341.

    .
    That was total war though.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Attempting to mine the straits during peacetime is also not the brightest idea, unless you are knowingly going to confrontation. Economic impact on the whole world would be immediate.
    As was stated before, the build up of forces and their purpose for being there would be no secret. The confrontation would already be at Taiwan's door step. So yeah, it would be great idea to do so.

    And any economic impact can be used as leverage. Call off the mobilization and mines will be removed. If not, be prepared to send tens, if not hundreds of thousands of your troops to a watery grave. Now Taiwan looks like a weaker nation trying to defend itself, but still willing to negotiate and the blame for the economic impact can be placed on China's shoulders.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    That was total war though.
    I mean, would this not be? We are talking about the destruction of an entire country here. Thats seems pretty total to me.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluespiderman57 View Post



    I mean, would this not be? We are talking about the destruction of an entire country here. Thats seems pretty total to me.
    the weakness is the strait, you would use every available weapon there not toppling dams lol. The whole defense would be on detering and defeating a blockade.

    china will use an indirect strategy because that is where it is strong.

    Taiwans best weapon is convincing allies if attacked they should economically blast china. half of chinas energy comes from the persian gulf/africa. They should be cut off.
    Last edited by jonnysensible; 2021-07-31 at 12:11 AM.

  6. #306
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    the weakness is the strait, you would use every available weapon there not toppling dams lol. The whole defense would be on detering and defeating a blockade.
    No that's just part of the equation. Militaries don't put all their eggs in one basket. They have multi-layered strategies.
    china will use an indirect strategy because that is where it is strong.
    Taiwan can also come up with effective indirect strategies against China.
    Taiwans best weapon is convincing allies if attacked they should economically blast china. half of chinas energy comes from the persian gulf/africa. They should be cut off.
    Sure but you don't only use your best weapon, you have different backup weapons and backups of backups, etc. Taiwan's biggest strength is that they have a more liberal democratic society compared to China.
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  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Taiwan's biggest strength is that they have a more liberal democratic society compared to China.
    and this helps in an invasion how?

  8. #308
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    and this helps in an invasion how?
    It's because liberal democracies are freer countries that are more innovative and they're better at creating new qualitative advantages over opponents. Similar societies tend to be allies and work together so the West will support Taiwan much more than China. The West is more powerful than China so you shouldn't just assume there is nothing we can do to save Taiwan.
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  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's because liberal democracies are freer countries that are more innovative and they're better at creating new qualitative advantages over opponents.
    Like what? Be specific, this vague nonsense means literally nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    The West is more powerful than China so you shouldn't just assume there is nothing we can do to save Taiwan.
    Why are we talking about the west when you said it was Taiwan that had the advantage? Do you think western countries will go to go to war against China for Taiwan?

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Attempting to mine the straits during peacetime is also not the brightest idea, unless you are knowingly going to confrontation. Economic impact on the whole world would be immediate.



    Dueling distance for a jet fighter and still too close to mainland unless China has been "supressed". B-52 can either launch cruise missiles from thousands of km away (which is it's main role anyway), or bomb people in sandals with no AA. It has no place in still contested airspace.



    I had heard about that talk between Mao and Khruschev, the latter one supposedly thought that Mao was an idiot who simply does not understand what nukes are. Which, frankly, would not have been surprising.
    Also that take on mass casualties would quickly change in case of nukes falling on coastal cities, though there is zero reason for nuking anyone as of now. As for attack on ROC? Yeah, nothing over there that would inflict enough pain.
    40 miles (more if launched from altitude) of standoff range is sufficient to mine all of the approaches to ROC beaches while staying well away from PRC SAMs. PLAAF fighters will be too busy with ROC fighters to defeat B-52s not attacking mainland China.

    It goes to the mindset of the Chinese, nothing more. There is a point where the cost would exceed the reward, even for China.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Your whole idea of Taiwan's defense is Taiwan successfully hiting dams instead of military targets and not being intercepted, while also being unstoppable in using anti-ship missiles. Brah, stop. I mean if you wanna see Taiwanese leaders get executed after the war, go ahead, but I don't think they would agree with you.
    P.S.
    Your also could be surprised how hard it might be to destroy them.
    Dams are generally not designed to withstand warheads going off inside of them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    That was total war though.
    The ROC defending against the PRC would be total war.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Like what? Be specific, this vague nonsense means literally nothing.



    Why are we talking about the west when you said it was Taiwan that had the advantage? Do you think western countries will go to go to war against China for Taiwan?
    The US likely would. If nothing else, the US should use it as a reason to force China out of the South China Sea and destroy China economically.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post



    The ROC defending against the PRC would be total war.
    would be a terrible idea to start banging civilian infrastructure when totally out gunned. And again a complete waste or resources which can be used blasting the strait (or navy docking yards)

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    would be a terrible idea to start banging civilian infrastructure when totally out gunned. And again a complete waste or resources which can be used blasting the strait (or navy docking yards)
    Not if you are attempting to deter an attack in the first place.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not if you are attempting to deter an attack in the first place.
    we will blow up your civilian infrastructure isnt a deterrent. its a justification for CCP action.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    we will blow up your civilian infrastructure isnt a deterrent. its a justification for CCP action.
    Not if it is based on the idea of attacking only if attacked. Personally, I think the US should give Taiwan 1000 of our withdrawn nukes to give them a proper deterent.

  15. #315
    Emphasis here is on the word "deterrent." It is a horrible last resort option. You don't want to use it, but you want the enemy to know that you will if cornered.

    Seriously, it is a horrible option. The loss of life is estimated to be between 150 to 250 millions. Shanghai, with a population count of half of California, will be permanently under water. Dozens of major cities will be gone permanently. No sane person will want to be responsible for that.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not if it is based on the idea of attacking only if attacked. Personally, I think the US should give Taiwan 1000 of our withdrawn nukes to give them a proper deterent.
    Can really see Chinese warheads deployed on Cuba. Chill bro, that's merely a deterrent
    Lives matter

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Can really see Chinese warheads deployed on Cuba. Chill bro, that's merely a deterrent
    I would have no issue with China wasting nuclear warheads by placing them close enough to be easily intercepted with current ABM systems.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I would have no issue with China wasting nuclear warheads by placing them close enough to be easily intercepted with current ABM systems.
    I imagine that the US government would still consider that a significant escalation and an act of aggression on the part of the ccp which I believe was the gentleman's point.
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  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It seems like you don't even want to find solutions and deterrents though. No matter what people come up with you just see the CCP as an unstoppable goliath, no? Or are you critical of Rasulis's idea because it's a distraction from a better idea?
    Solution/deterrant? Emm, I was quite clear that it's name is USA, in all it's forms, from demonstratively sailing carriers through the straits to attacking China in case of invasion.
    IIRC Taiwan's defence strategy even is based on holding out until America comes to their aid. Imagine if they do not do that - not an impossible scenarion, especially with current state of internal USA politics. That should make a point regarding Rasulis ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    It is meant as a deterrent. The same with having nuclear warheads. Something that you hope you will never have to use.
    As I said I believe that in 10 years time the "question" of Taiwan will be "resolved". Deterrants or not, all that buildup and propaganda has to go somewhere.
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I imagine that the US government would still consider that a significant escalation and an act of aggression on the part of the ccp which I believe was the gentleman's point.
    Basing SSKs there would be of a bigger concern.

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