Chinese nationalists, Wumao Propaganda and the Rise of China

[uuuhname]

Western nations arent above it either clearly.

so that makes everything ok then? is that what your saying? that since every country that has ever existed has done heinous things and that means no one has the right to criticize other's for their misdeeds? even while acknowledging their own failings? what wacky world view is this? I hope you realize this means you can't say jack shit about the west, right? can you not see how short sighted and self defeating this argument is?

[uuuhname]

No? What I'm saying is what's the point in one murderer condemning another? Canada is hardly acknowledging their own failings, people seem more worried about churches burning down.

I'm quite happy for people who have demonstrated a capacity of viewing Chinese people as human to criticize China and are doing it out of a concern for other, but I dont really have time for those who are doing it for their own agendas or to try defeat the Chinese or w.e.

Every country has done heinous things and there are those who try to ameliorate the impacts that theyve had and do good and those who downplay them or even wish theyd happen again. I know who I want to be critical of issues like these and it's not the people who downplay the attrocities committed by their own people.

again your entire argument is "shut up! clean your room before talking about the mess in the neighbors yard."

also I'm downplaying the atrocities of the Canadian boarding schools by bringing up how they were a part of a systemic attempt at genocide? huuuuuh??? like, just say you don't want people criticizing China so I don't have to bother taking you seriously. because when I criticize China I'm talking about it's government, not the people living there....

[Endus]

No? What I'm saying is what's the point in one murderer condemning another? Canada is hardly acknowledging their own failings, people seem more worried about churches burning down.

Err, what?

You don't get Canadian news at all, do you? Canada's been pretty badly hit by the residential school revelations, and there's been massive calls for meaningful penalties and a lot of public outcry. The new Governor General was likely chosen at least in part as a statement against those abuses. This is all over and above a more than C$3b class action settlement on the matter arranged back in 2006. The biggest issue we're having isn't getting official recognition and shame, which is already achieved, it's getting the Catholic Church to acknowledge their complicity and participation in some concrete manner.

Get the hell out of here with that "hardly acknowledging their own failings" garbage.

[uuuhname]

How come jordan Peterson says it and he gets millions of dollars yet if we try to actually apply to suddenly its wrong?

huh???? I'm saying that argument sucks. I'll repeat myself: that argument is dog shit!

[Endus]

How come jordan Peterson says it and he gets millions of dollars yet if we try to actually apply to suddenly its wrong?

Jordan Peterson is in the business of shilling Nazi conspiracy nonsense to an audience hungry for such nonsense. Answers both parts of that question.

Calls for meaningful penalties. Let me know when people actually face those penalties. 3 billion dollar settlement for how many affected families and communities?

86,000 living people. And sure, it's probably not enough, but it was a settlement, which means it was agreed to by both sides.

And now, there's a push for more. Rightfully. Which is supported by the government. So I don't know what you're talking about when you say we're "hardly acknowledging our own failings".

It really seems like piss all in the face of over a thousand dead children, let alone all the other shit that was inflicted upon them. This is the same shit that happens everytime an attrocitie is uncovered, until there is some proper meaningful attempts to fix the damage caused and the people responsible are held accountable, it's all just a big show.

That's literally occurring. You either have completely unreasonable standards or are completely misinformed about the subject.

[Endus]

Yeah it was a joke.

I also live in a post colonial country and while monetary compensation and apologies from politicians are nice, they're token gestures in comparison to the damage they was done and continues to be propagated by colonialism.

I'll change my tune when we see results how about that? I've just seen how this plays out in post colonial countries and the reality is for most indigenous people it changes nothing.

I mean, you're just admitting to not understanding what's going on in Canada, here.

You literally said you're struggling to get the catholic church to even acknowledge the fact they're complicit.

It's hard when they're, y'know, not located in Canada and not beholden to our government.

I'm of the position if they won't, then the Canadian Government can bring a civil suit in absentia, and start seizing Catholic properties to pay off whatever penalties are assigned. It's not like the Church can pick up and move land back to the Vatican.

I'm informed enough to know that many conservatives arent exactly in agreement with you. They're getting egg on their face which is funny, but they is still a not insignificant portion of canadians who are genuinely more upset by churches being burned than dead indigenous children

They're also rapidly becoming irrelevant. Singh and the NDP are currently polling as the #2 party in Canada, if another election were called. The Conservatives are also facing internal crises of leadership as the old Reform and Progressive Conservative factions in-fight, in ways that just might mean the party splits again (which would guarantee they remain irrelevant).

Like I said; you're not informed.

[Rasulis]

It basically had no details....

Without knowing the rules of engagement, or the force structures, or the exact scenario, there is little to learn from the article.

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Tanks and tactical land based aircraft have long had little place in a war against China. Really, the Army (and to a lesser extent the Air Force) would be there to ensure the US would endure casualties should China attempt to invade Taiwan. If the US had enough time to move heavy armor to Taiwan then the Army would be able to defend the beaches. The Chinese military would be facing the same issues of bases being targeted that the US would, so their local superiority may be fleeting. A smart US commander would also use this time to go on the offensive and take all of China's manned outposts in the SCS.

Also, the confirmed use of offensive biological warfare would likely result in the US retaliating with nuclear strikes.

US does not have any bases in Taiwan. So the nearest support would have to come from Japan or Guam. The same issue that make amphibious landing difficult in Taiwan, the lack of accessible beach heads, also make it difficult to reinforce Taiwan from the sea. All the major ports are located on the Strait of Taiwan side. The first step in the of a China invasion of Taiwan would be to bomb all the major runways. So that route is closed also.

The strategy that make the most sense to me is to deter China from attacking Taiwan in the first place by increasing Taiwan’s capability to hit high impact targets in mainland China. In the past, Taiwan had concentrated on defense and their ability to strike the mainland was limited to the southern coast of China. Taiwan has had long range cruise missile technology since 2004, and chose not to mass produce any out of fear of antagonizing China. Obviously that strategy was not working.

With the introduction of the Yun Feng last year, Taiwan’s capability to strike mainland critical targets increased to cover all of central and western China. Which put tens of thousands of dams, chemical and power plants, including nuclear power plants, and major Chinese cities within striking range. Taiwan’s ability to damage China has increased exponentially.

The problem is that Taiwan started late in mass producing their long range cruise missiles. The US can accelerate this by selling Tomahawk cruise missiles to Taiwan. At the current cost, 1,000 Tomahawk cruise missiles would cost around 2 billion dollars, or 20% of Taiwan’s current annual defense budget. That would increase the range of Taiwan’s porcupine defense all the way to northern China. Also bigger payloads and stealth capability meant more damage and less chance of interception.

[Easo]

Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.

[PC2]

Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.

Pfft nobody is going to get mad at Taiwan for taking counter-measures in response to a Chinese invasion.

[Rasulis]

Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.

Taiwan can not win a war against China. What they can do is make the cost of winning the war for China very high.

Define kill shitload of civilians?

The Inner Mongolian twin dam failures this year destroyed 22 bridges, completely undermined a major highway and flood 22,000 hectares of fertile farmlands. Yet the Chinese claimed no human casualties.

The Henan province flood which hit Zhengzhou, the provincial capital of 12 million people, according to the Chinese only killed 35 people. They were lying btw. They conveniently forgot the 4 km long traffic tunnel with 6 lanes in each direction which was completely flooded in about 5 minutes. That event alone probably killed 6,000. Also, Zhengzhou was caught unaware. The Chinese blew up one dam and opened another one to prevent catastrophic collapse without telling the downstream region until 24 hours later.

The point is that Taiwan can target dams to create economic havoc and flood 75% of PLA bases in central China while minimizing casualties.

Keeping in mind, Taiwan will only attack these soft targets in response to an attack from China. They won't be the aggressor.

Also, I just don't see how China can use their cruise missiles and perform aerial bombs without hitting Taiwan's civilian targets.

Tit for tat.

[Easo]

And China does not give two shits about Taiwan going full retard military wise and creating some losses at home, dead civilians would just give more support to take the island. Look at Azerbaijan - they lost a lot of soldiers compared to Armenia while having upper hand in basically everything. The dead were forgotten instantly after the war was won. In fact, it did not even matter during the war when Armenians started posting piles of corpses. When Scuds started landing in Azerbaijan's cities they enraged Azeri populations in them, not made them think of peace.

[Rasulis]

And China does not give two shits about Taiwan going full retard military wise and creating some losses at home, dead civilians would just give more support to take the island. Look at Azerbaijan - they lost a lot of soldiers compared to Armenia while having upper hand in basically everything. The dead were forgotten instantly after the war was won. In fact, it did not even matter during the war when Armenians started posting piles of corpses. When Scuds started landing in Azerbaijan's cities they enraged Azeri populations in them, not made them think of peace.

There will be major casualties regardless. All of the suitable beach heads for major invasion are in the heaviest urbanized areas of Taiwan (Taipei, Taoyuan, Zhubei, Tainan, etc.). Short of invading from the east and crossing the steep mountains there is no good way for China to invade Taiwan without inflicting heavy civilian casualties. It would be silly for Taiwan to hold back in fear of Chinese population anger. They are already in a war. What are those angry Chinese going to do anyway? Swim across the strait? They are probably going to be sitting on the roof of their homes trying to stay dry because the PLA is too busy attacking Taiwan and don't have the personnel to do rescue operation.

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Pfft nobody is going to get mad at Taiwan for taking counter-measures in response to a Chinese invasion.

It would be just like China. We are going to invade you without provocation. We are going to bomb your cities and send endless missiles against you. But if you attack our dams, we will get mad.

[PC2]

Tit for tat.

Exactly, the CCP would effectively erase Taiwan's society so I don't see why Taiwan would hold back against an existential threat to their national culture. The fact that most of the population would/could survive is largely irrelevant because who wants live on an island where the people have to live as pets to the CCP...

It's like thinking most all of the Middle Eastern countries could wipe out Israel but then Israelis can't use nukes to defend themselves because they would supposedly "lose" PR points in the world's eyes. But from their perspective why would they even care about the world's opinion if the world is siding with the people who are going to irrevocably destroy their society? Holding back doesn't make a lot of sense from their perspective.

[Easo]

There will be major casualties regardless. All of the suitable beach heads for major invasion are in the heaviest urbanized areas of Taiwan (Taipei, Taoyuan, Zhubei, Tainan, etc.). Short of invading from the east and crossing the steep mountains there is no good way for China to invade Taiwan without inflicting heavy civilian casualties. It would be silly for Taiwan to hold back in fear of Chinese population anger. They are already in a war. What are those angry Chinese going to do anyway? Swim across the strait? They are probably going to be sitting on the roof of their homes trying to stay dry because the PLA is too busy attacking Taiwan and don't have the personnel to do rescue operation.

So you think that instead of using those missiles to try stopping the naval invasion until the end Taiwanese leadership would do some kind of last "screw you" in the face of imminent defeat and shoot them at some dams instead of surrendering? Brah... That's pretty much suicide for them afterwards. This is not WW2 with fanatic Japanese wanting to fight until everyone is dead.
This is not even Israel's case where failure means genocide, here loss would mean change of management on the island and relatively little for the Taiwanese, as long as they don't try to talk too much.

[Rasulis]

So you think that instead of using those missiles to try stopping the naval invasion until the end Taiwanese leadership would do some kind of last "screw you" in the face of imminent defeat and shoot them at some dams instead of surrendering? Brah... That's pretty much suicide for them afterwards. This is not WW2 with fanatic Japanese wanting to fight until everyone is dead.
This is not even Israel's case where failure means genocide, here loss would mean change of management on the island and relatively little for the Taiwanese, as long as they don't try to talk too much.

In the first place you don't use long range cruise missiles to stop naval invasion. That's a waste of valuable resources. Anti-ship missiles are more appropriate, and you could get over a dozen anti-ship missiles for the cost of a single cruise missile.

What I think is not important. The key here is what do PLA generals think. Do they believe that Taiwan will use cruise missiles to attack soft targets such as dams, power plants, chemical plants, etc. The amount of supply, both materials and energy, chain disruption in China due to the current Henan flooding due to controlled blasting of a single dam is massive. Imagine the economic impact of 100 dams failing at the same time. Some may even lead to cascading failure of the downstream dams.

[Kellhound]

US does not have any bases in Taiwan. So the nearest support would have to come from Japan or Guam. The same issue that make amphibious landing difficult in Taiwan, the lack of accessible beach heads, also make it difficult to reinforce Taiwan from the sea. All the major ports are located on the Strait of Taiwan side. The first step in the of a China invasion of Taiwan would be to bomb all the major runways. So that route is closed also.

The strategy that make the most sense to me is to deter China from attacking Taiwan in the first place by increasing Taiwan’s capability to hit high impact targets in mainland China. In the past, Taiwan had concentrated on defense and their ability to strike the mainland was limited to the southern coast of China. Taiwan has had long range cruise missile technology since 2004, and chose not to mass produce any out of fear of antagonizing China. Obviously that strategy was not working.

With the introduction of the Yun Feng last year, Taiwan’s capability to strike mainland critical targets increased to cover all of central and western China. Which put tens of thousands of dams, chemical and power plants, including nuclear power plants, and major Chinese cities within striking range. Taiwan’s ability to damage China has increased exponentially.

The problem is that Taiwan started late in mass producing their long range cruise missiles. The US can accelerate this by selling Tomahawk cruise missiles to Taiwan. At the current cost, 1,000 Tomahawk cruise missiles would cost around 2 billion dollars, or 20% of Taiwan’s current annual defense budget. That would increase the range of Taiwan’s porcupine defense all the way to northern China. Also bigger payloads and stealth capability meant more damage and less chance of interception.

"If the US had enough time to move heavy armor to Taiwan then the Army would be able to defend the beaches." Key sentence. Without that the best the US can do is move in light troops to force China to attack them. It would not be possible for China to assemble an actual invasion force w/o tipping its hand by at least a few days.

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Rasulis, if you think Taiwan's plan is to destroy dams and kill shitload of civilians (let's ignore which side has way more missiles first, or their capability), then they have lost already. Also - best way to loose international support for Taiwan.

If the threat to destroy dams is all they have left to keep China at bay, that is just a "nuclear" deterrent.

[Glorious Leader]

The Conservatives are also facing internal crises of leadership as the old Reform and Progressive Conservative factions in-fight, in ways that just might mean the party splits again (which would guarantee they remain irrelevant).

Like I said; you're not informed.

Its possible they could get a leader to unify them. I haven't seen what Doug is polling but he was the darling of conservatives in Ontario at one point. Erin otoole isn't that guy I dont think.

[Rasulis]

"If the US had enough time to move heavy armor to Taiwan then the Army would be able to defend the beaches." Key sentence. Without that the best the US can do is move in light troops to force China to attack them. It would not be possible for China to assemble an actual invasion force w/o tipping its hand by at least a few days.

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If the threat to destroy dams is all they have left to keep China at bay, that is just a "nuclear" deterrent.

It is exactly that. It is Taiwan's version of a nuclear deterrent. The same with China's 200 - 300 nuclear warheads. Nowhere in the same league as US and Russia with 6,000 warheads each. However, enough to deter any country from launching a first strike against China.

This is something that people do not understand. Every aspects of Taiwan's infrastructure were built with China in mind - collapsible bridges and tunnels that could be used to block access, freeways that double as runways, etc. However, since China did not have to worry about Taiwan being able to strike at mainland targets until recently, their infrastructure, especially their dams are considered soft targets.

[Gestopft]

Look I will give you this, if this was happening in the states, the response would be worse. I can already see the public debates about how dead children was good actually.

Did you miss it? We've had that thread recently.

[Yadryonych]

It is exactly that. It is Taiwan's version of a nuclear deterrent. The same with China's 200 - 300 nuclear warheads.

Yeah no, that's a nope. Nothing like that. Nuclear detterrent is mutual assured destruction. There's no way formosa can inflict any serious damage on china before getting roflstomped. The same with china's 200-300 warheads they will be intercepted, good luck if couple dosens actually make it to americsn soil