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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    My point is that Garrosh's apparent consistency is borne out of his stubborness to admit any fault rather than a strong moral character, as in, he will justify anything as long as it suits his current need and view and won't admit otherwise. That we can say "well, I guess his PoV about Void and Fel makes sense" doesn't make his previous character leaps any less "hypocritical", and no, we can just call the things that don't fit out of character when it's almost a pattern that he's against something until he can make use it/it's different because he is doing it. And that rings true for both the mana bomb and the usage of Warlocks -might as well use them now to inflict losses on the alliance and then just get rid of any when the time comes-

    That's the point, his stubborness is not a strong moral core, is just him justifying himself superior to the rest because if he does something then it's right.
    That would be a viable point to make were his goals to have changed at any point, but that isn't really the case. What changed were his knowledge and circumstances. Garrosh's preoccupation at all times was with what benefitted the orcs and on a personal level to be the ideal orc. Even angsty Outland Garrosh was angsty because he was afraid to make any decisions as, on account of his connection to his father, any decision he did make might screw the orcs over. His entire grievances with the Alliance come down to what he saw of the state of the orcs under Thrall and it's what soured him on Thrall in general. His issues with fel also go back to his dad and the orcs at large and the specific qualities it has that make it non-viable for the interests of his people.

    His stance on fel and void then is consistent on why he approves of one and not the other and doesn't constitute any kind of hypocrisy. The Mana Bomb is even more of a non-issue as it was never even implied to be outside his wheelhouse and the way the morality of the weapon is treated is barking considering both the completely legitimate target, its strategic use and who was actually in Theramore when it hit. Was Garrosh willing to compromise his stances to a point in order to achieve his objectives? Yes, he did send the undead en masse at Gilneas, but he plainly disapproved of both the Blight and necromancy, he just had no means of enforcing this without handicapping the war effort. Since the warlock thing with Garrosh'ar and Darkspear Isle, nonsense though it is, still canonically happened, we can attribute the same to them - he had them lying around, so he might as well use them. By Siege of Orgrimmar they no longer had any utility and amounted to a completely hostile internal element. Hell, the main warlock in Orgrimmar was a Legion cultist that Thrall kept around in order to keep track of his movements, so even disregarding his history and the nature of the magic itself, it's hardly a surprise that a very different kind of manager from Thrall might not consider keeping Neeru around worth the trouble.

    The war effort at large was the driving interest of what he meant to accomplish to benefit the orcs. Garrosh did compromise on the undead and to a far lesser extent the fel, what with it being two solitary cases amidst a policy that was otherwise hostile, but the degrees to which he did so were less than his predecessors and peers when it came to their own supposed values. Unlike Thrall, he outlawed the Blight and implemented overseers with Sylvanas to ensure the war was waged in the way he wanted. Was it used anyway and his overseer subverted? Sure, but the effort was made. Compromises are part of leadership. Garrosh made far fewer of these compromises as regards his values than his predecessor and that's why I can't agree with your position. He was toppled after all in large part because he tried to apply those values on people who didn't care about them and to push his interests on states that didn't have much to gain from them. Also because of post-Tides of War collective amnesia, but anyway.
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  2. #82
    It's kind of difficult to say because there are fundamental differences between the types of deals that the Old Horde made with the Legion and Garrosh's 'arrangement' with Y'shaarj.

    The Orcish Horde under Blackhand and Gul'dan was never an independent force, it was always a pawn of the Burning Legion.
    The Horde under Garrosh never cut a deal or became a pawn of Y'shaarj, he beat the Sha at their own game and properly subjugated its power.
    Garrosh's Horde did the same thing with the elements; the Dark Shaman dominated the elements rather than cutting deals with them.
    If you want to look at Garrosh as though he's a deeper character than he actually is, it makes perfect sense that the dude who has spent most of his adult life dealing with crippling depression is going to fixate on dominating the elemental avatars of negative emotions.

    I dunno if it was a good story direction to really go into and I don't think I would have done MoP the way it was done or I would have written Garrosh the way he was written, but I don't think I can definitively say that Garrosh is a hypocrite for (successfully) trying to conquer the Sha.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  3. #83
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Apparently we have a different definition of the word taboo, and mine is stronger than yours. Mine typically involves people refusing to talk to you and/or calling the guards to kill/arrest you on sight. Something no one in the Horde or Alliance has done, sans Garrosh.
    Taboo:

    a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing.
    prohibited or restricted by social custom.
    Exactly what fel magic using, or the warlocks in general were.

    and not just for the horde though, it was a general consensus:

    During the war against the Lich King, warlocks were still considered as pariahs, operating in the shadows of polite society but were now starting to be respected on the battlefronts
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-07-18 at 01:12 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Fell magic affect orcs just by being nearby, we also ahve other isntances of the mere rpesence being a corruptive factor with blood elves gaining green eyes and the wildlife there going crazy.
    You mean like Mana Sabers and other types of life mutated as a result of the Nightwell? Or even the dependency that causes mental and physical degredation into withered, similar to what happened to the broken? Once again, you're disregarding everything that isn't convenient for your headcanon.

    And we know the well is not a normal font of arcane magic, and there is nothing saying the eredar changed due to arcane amgic, and they lvied trough thousand years fine.
    Prove to me that they did not mutate because of the abundance of arcane magic. I want you to demonstrate to this to me. I already know you can't because we don't know the history of the Eredar and know you're using them as an example because you're trying to appeal to the unknown to try and make a point.

    They used, buthte palce still had arcane energy all around, if it was fell, it would corrupt then, like it did with orcs and would ahve done with the blood elves
    I guess you would also claim that disposing of toxic waste by pouring it in a river would have the same effects as storing it in containers away from groundwater? That's the sort of argument you are making. Reckless and dangerous uses of magic are going to have reckless and dangerous results, hence why the rules of magic are ascribed to by the Wizards of Dalaran, and the internal politics of Lordaeron even caused them to become more stringent, as we saw with Kel'Thuzad.

    No, addiction is one thing, corruption is other,
    Which is a stupid statement. As I've said numerous times, the addiction is a prelude to the physical and mental degredation, such as can be seen with groups like the withered. This mirrors cases of negative instances of Fel corruption like the broken, but you ignore this because you've made headcanon and are sticking to it.

    Literally was made from the well of eternity.
    Which, if you had followed the conversation, you would understand why I clarified. You had said the Sunwell came from the Nightwell, which was not correct.

    another one was amde from the well.
    Now here you are simply lying. The Nightwell was empowered from the Eye of Aman'thul and was never said to have been created from water from the Well of Eternity.

    And you said a thing about spliting hairs hum?
    You don't understand what splitting hairs is.

    Waht lessers?
    The Nightwell and the Sunwell were lesser fonts of energy than the Well of Eternity. That this needs explicitly pointed out when it should be evident from what was said makes it seem like you're not following the conversation.

    that is what happens when you want too much power, again, with other energies you can do it, in Garrosh mind, you could reach that lv without losing sanity because willpower, with fel you can't
    So you've switched your argument again, which is a consistent problem with you. Either you think Kanrethad was mutated by virtue of proximity to Fel magic, which you have never substantiated, or you think that using Fel magic makes you crave more power and is a unique symptom to Fel magic usage, which would be a stupid argument to make, seeing as you wouldn't be able to justify it and could easily be countered by people pointing to notable characters like Benedictus or any other character who craves power.

    Never said a thing about that, another strawman
    You explicitly said that Void magic does not consume life when it has been shown to consume souls, worlds, magical realms with heavy connection to the plane of life, etc. Either you aren't keeping up with the conversation or you're backing off this point.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2021-07-18 at 08:11 PM.
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  5. #85
    garrosh is the biggest hypocrite in wow along with sylvanas so dont look for any backbone in those characters.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Taboo:




    Exactly what fel magic using, or the warlocks in general were.

    and not just for the horde though, it was a general consensus:
    Except by your very definition warlocks never reached that level. Frowned upon, yes. But not to the level of your own definition.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Except by your very definition warlocks never reached that level. Frowned upon, yes. But not to the level of your own definition.
    what level? cause they def got like that in wow, especially before wtlk/legion, the quote i mentioned before clearly shows that

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    You mean like Mana Sabers and other types of life mutated as a result of the Nightwell?
    Ah yes, another "mutation" coming from something related to the whell of eternity, can you give another example that is not literally already adressed?

    Besides their mutation is not a corruption like with fel, you do not become a demon controled by stronger ones or the legion itself

    Prove to me that they did not mutate because of the abundance of arcane magic. I want you to demonstrate to this to me
    Prove to me they did, your instance is that they did, the burden of proof is yours, unless there is nothing saying that, we go for the normal route

    I guess you would also claim that disposing of toxic waste by pouring it in a river would have the same effects as storing it in containers away from groundwater? That's the sort of argument you are making. Reckless and dangerous uses of magic are going to have reckless and dangerous results, hence why the rules of magic
    You are comparing throwing away garbage waste to literaly nuclear waste, which is fel.

    They already did confirmed fel work like radiation.
    Fel works like radiation, permeating an area and seeping into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel energy will eventually show signs of slight corruption
    That does not happen with other energies, at least not that easy.

    Which is a stupid statement. As I've said numerous times, the addiction is a prelude to the physical and mental degredation, such as can be seen with groups like the withered. This mirrors cases of negative instances of Fel corruption like the broken, but you ignore this because you've made headcanon and are sticking to it.
    Stupid argument is trying to make corruption and addiction the same, an addict can still be in control of his own, he can still look the same, can still be controled and treated like we saw several times with night elves.

    Corruption is no way back, you are changed and become a demon

    An addiction can be to anything, you do not thing nicotine addiction cause fel corruption, the problem is not rly the source but the corruption per se, and of course, ELVES, something related to th well of eternity and the highborne.

    Plus, youa re forggeting how the Broken became like that using a combination of fel and the red pox disease, called the red mist.

    Which, if you had followed the conversation, you would understand why I clarified. You had said the Sunwell came from the Nightwell, which was not correct.
    Unveiling a stolen vial of water from the Well of Eternity, Dath'Remar poured its contents into a lake situated at a convergence of powerful ley lines. A brilliant fount of energy tore through the skies of Azeroth
    literally stating the sunwell came from the well of eternity.

    Now here you are simply lying. The Nightwell was empowered from the Eye of Aman'thul and was never said to have been created from water from the Well of Eternity.
    It was a mistake but they were made from the ley lanes, witch are the "veins" of the azeroth ttian,:

    Suramar, its "noble" citizens greedily slurping at their world's very lifeblood
    in chronicles 1 it is said that the well of eternity is create from the world lifeblood.

    in the end is the same thing, plus, the eye of amanthul is also another titan relted thing

    The Nightwell and the Sunwell were lesser fonts of energy than the Well of Eternity. That this needs explicitly pointed out when it should be evident from what was said makes it seem like you're not following the conversation.
    Exactly, only those 3, which are related to the titan lifeblood

    only that amount of arcane power and titan essence can do that, there is no other stance, as far ima ware, of arcane magic corrupting, like fel does even in the smaller doses

    So you've switched your argument again, which is a consistent problem with you. Either you think Kanrethad was mutated by virtue of proximity to Fel magic, which you have never substantiated, or you think that using Fel magic makes you crave more power and is a unique symptom to Fel magic usage, which would be a stupid argument to make, seeing as you wouldn't be able to justify it and could easily be countered by people pointing to notable characters like Benedictus or any other character who craves power.
    there is no argument switching, you just keep pretending to not understand, or just rly have no clue about the differences in magic.

    trying to make arcane in the same level of fel is just obnoxious.


    You explicitly said that Void magic does not consume life when it has been shown to consume souls, worlds, magical realms with heavy connection to the plane of life, etc. Either you aren't keeping up with the conversation or you're backing off this point.
    you are confusing an energy consuming a thing with what is necessary for an energy to exist.

    Life and souls is the fuel for fel, like oxygen for fire, you have to burn your life force or someone else's to make it happen, that is the fucking risk. You don't need to do that with void, arcane life or nature energies.

    You aren't keeping up with the conversation mixing up things this hard.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-07-19 at 02:10 AM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That would be a viable point to make were his goals to have changed at any point, but that isn't really the case. What changed were his knowledge and circumstances. Garrosh's preoccupation at all times was with what benefitted the orcs and on a personal level to be the ideal orc. Even angsty Outland Garrosh was angsty because he was afraid to make any decisions as, on account of his connection to his father, any decision he did make might screw the orcs over. His entire grievances with the Alliance come down to what he saw of the state of the orcs under Thrall and it's what soured him on Thrall in general. His issues with fel also go back to his dad and the orcs at large and the specific qualities it has that make it non-viable for the interests of his people.

    His stance on fel and void then is consistent on why he approves of one and not the other and doesn't constitute any kind of hypocrisy. The Mana Bomb is even more of a non-issue as it was never even implied to be outside his wheelhouse and the way the morality of the weapon is treated is barking considering both the completely legitimate target, its strategic use and who was actually in Theramore when it hit. Was Garrosh willing to compromise his stances to a point in order to achieve his objectives? Yes, he did send the undead en masse at Gilneas, but he plainly disapproved of both the Blight and necromancy, he just had no means of enforcing this without handicapping the war effort. Since the warlock thing with Garrosh'ar and Darkspear Isle, nonsense though it is, still canonically happened, we can attribute the same to them - he had them lying around, so he might as well use them. By Siege of Orgrimmar they no longer had any utility and amounted to a completely hostile internal element. Hell, the main warlock in Orgrimmar was a Legion cultist that Thrall kept around in order to keep track of his movements, so even disregarding his history and the nature of the magic itself, it's hardly a surprise that a very different kind of manager from Thrall might not consider keeping Neeru around worth the trouble.

    The war effort at large was the driving interest of what he meant to accomplish to benefit the orcs. Garrosh did compromise on the undead and to a far lesser extent the fel, what with it being two solitary cases amidst a policy that was otherwise hostile, but the degrees to which he did so were less than his predecessors and peers when it came to their own supposed values. Unlike Thrall, he outlawed the Blight and implemented overseers with Sylvanas to ensure the war was waged in the way he wanted. Was it used anyway and his overseer subverted? Sure, but the effort was made. Compromises are part of leadership. Garrosh made far fewer of these compromises as regards his values than his predecessor and that's why I can't agree with your position. He was toppled after all in large part because he tried to apply those values on people who didn't care about them and to push his interests on states that didn't have much to gain from them. Also because of post-Tides of War collective amnesia, but anyway.
    I think what ultimately makes the entire premise falls flat is that we never see this supposed difference between Void and Fel. First the True Horde isn't treated as any different or better than the WC1&2 one, in-game it's just a pack of mooks and raid bosses who are the evils of evil, with heavy-handed Nazi undertones even so that you're damn sure who the baddie is. Void is supposedly more controllable, but we see Orcs overcome by the Heart's power in SoO itself or downright turned into consumed monsters. Fel is supposed to always corrupt, but there are a bunch of, if not nice, then at least not lolevil Warlocks running around, especially in Legion, and the class isn't treated as evil or even particularly ruthless by default at all, that would be the Death Knights. Warlocks keep demons as shackled pets, True Horde keeps a bunch of Sha monsters around, and some sentient Void followers as well. Fel corruption also isn't that permanent given that Orcs generally got over it between WC2 and 3. The Void Elves talk about keeping the whispers at bay (all the time) and were all corrupted by accident or outside forces, but by contrast the True Horde seems more keen on juicing up on as much of the stuff as they can get their hands on, not unlike their predecessors with the demon blood. Garrosh is supposed to be in total control, but spends his entire boss fight ranting and raving about prophecies, whispers, and doing a rather impressive Khorne impersonation RE mountains of skulls + rivers of blood. He never does that before or after his boss fight.

    As for being pawns or not, Garrosh might have believed he wasn't, but if Azshara was made a pawn, I really don't see how he could escape it given that he's not exactly hard to manipulate and was already heavily dependent on Yshaarj's whispers and power come SoO. The original Horde also didn't think they were pawns, but still were even in WC2 after Doomhammer axed most of the Shadow Council.

    It's all a big game of telling us there's some difference rather than showing us said difference, so no wonder most people don't take that angle seriously, myself included.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Ah yes, another "mutation" coming from something related to the whell of eternity, can you give another example that is not literally already adressed?

    Besides their mutation is not a corruption like with fel, you do not become a demon controled by stronger ones or the legion itself
    The Nightwell, which is where we see Manasabers, is not the Well of Eternity nor a descendent of it. At least get that correct.
    And, again, you are splitting hairs between what you consider corruption and some kind of transformation. You cannot seriously be making the statement that "the wildlife are going crazy," which I would assume you mean things like Hellboars and other mutated flora and fauna, and then on to ignore changes made in proximity to sources of Arcane magic.

    Prove to me they did, your instance is that they did, the burden of proof is yours, unless there is nothing saying that, we go for the normal route
    For someone who throws around strawman, you're very good at passively making them. My stance is that we don't know. You are appealing to cultures that we don't know and to histories that we don't know, which doesn't make for a good example. Why you even thought to appeal to a history we don't know anything about is beyond me, and why you think you've turned something around when my stance has essentially been that we shouldn't be using them as an example because neither of us can actually give accurate information of their history is, frankly, stupid.

    Stupid argument is trying to make corruption and addiction the same, an addict can still be in control of his own, he can still look the same, can still be controled and treated like we saw several times with night elves.

    Corruption is no way back, you are changed and become a demon

    An addiction can be to anything, you do not thing nicotine addiction cause fel corruption, the problem is not rly the source but the corruption per se, and of course, ELVES, something related to th well of eternity and the highborne.
    This is what I mean by splitting hairs. Corruption is what you are calling corruption, but corruption in forms that you, personally, don't consider corruption (i.e.: changes you think are OK) are ignored. It is the pinnacle of bad faith argumentation. We see similar negative effects for both Arcane and Fel magic (mental and physical degradation) and they both have effects on the flora and fauna in regions where it is recklessly suffused into the environment.

    Plus, youa re forggeting how the Broken became like that using a combination of fel and the red pox disease, called the red mist.
    And what about the Broken on Argus? Were they also affected by the Red Mist that only occurred on Draenor? That misuse of Fel magic and being afflicted by it can lead to mental and physical degradation is not something I thought would be up for debate at this point.

    literally stating the sunwell came from the well of eternity.
    That's, quite literally, not what you were saying, but if you're retracting the previous statements you made in order to correct it, that's fine.

    It was a mistake but they were made from the ley lanes, witch are the "veins" of the azeroth ttian,:
    And the ley lines emit what kind of magic? Because according to War Crimes, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, and characters in-game like Malygos, they are channels of Arcane magic. This whole argument based around it not actually being Arcane magic, but some super-special Titan magic is silly. Which, before you say is a strawman, is either what you believe or you have been intentionally making irrelevant statements about distinctions between them for the sake of making argument, or more maliciously as a means to distract.

    in chronicles 1 it is said that the well of eternity is create from the world lifeblood.

    in the end is the same thing, plus, the eye of amanthul is also another titan relted thing
    Which is not relevant. Azerite is a source of Arcane energy, and going this route when we know it's a source of Arcane energy is silly. Even if I were to buy into that idea, the fact that you're even now resorting to the Eye of Aman'Thul is a Titan thing" doesn't matter. Are you going to argue that anything that the Titans created does not actually emit Arcane energy, even it it states that it does in every context? Fine, then I say that Outland is suffused with special Eredar Fel magic, not the normal Fel magic, and will now sit here and ask for you to provide sources to prove me wrong because apparently you're OK with being a pedant and lying by making irrelevant distinctions.

    (Obviously the Fel magic used in Outland was simply Fel magic and not special Eredar Fel magic, but just in case the sarcasm used to illustrate why saying that Leylines and the Eye of Aman'Thul do not emit Arcane energy was silly was not clear, here's an upfront disclaimer)

    there is no argument switching, you just keep pretending to not understand, or just rly have no clue about the differences in magic.
    You're simply lying. These two statements are not the same:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yes, thats exactly what im talking about, when yout ry to sue much of that, you became like that

    Se Garry with the old god heart, he just came back to normal, with fell you don't go back, you ebcame a demon

    Plus, Fel consume life energy, unlike arcane and void.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is what happens when you want too much power, again, with other energies you can do it, in Garrosh mind, you could reach that lv without losing sanity because willpower, with fel you can't
    The first is a statement that using Fel energy naturally results in transformations like Kanrethad, the second is saying that Fel energy leads you to to wanting to undergo apotheosis. These are not the same argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are confusing an energy consuming a thing with what is necessary for an energy to exist.

    Life and souls is the fuel for fel, like oxygen for fire, you have to burn your life force or someone else's to make it happen, that is the fucking risk. You don't need to do that with void, arcane life or nature energies.

    You aren't keeping up with the conversation mixing up things this hard.
    You're lying about what you said again. Let's take a look at what you said. Let's take another look:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Plus, Fel consume life energy, unlike arcane and void.
    You said, quite explicitly, that magics like Void magic do not consume life energy. To which I provided examples of Void: consuming physical worlds, consuming souls, and trying to consuming places tied to Life. There was no setup about whether it was required to use basic magic or anything, you made a blanket statement. You now want to disown this because you realized that you cannot defend it, because you were caught lying again.

    Moreover, even if you were making that argument, which you weren't, using life to power magic isn't even unique to Fel, as blood sacrifice and other practices from races like the Trolls that convert life to magic. Hell, even more obviously the Blood Trolls showed us that life can be used to power what is assumed to be Void magic in their worship of G'huun. That Fel can convert souls and life into power isn't unique to it.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2021-07-19 at 03:02 AM.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The Nightwell, which is where we see Manasabers, is not the Well of Eternity nor a descendent of it. At least get that correct.
    And, again, you are splitting hairs between what you consider corruption and some kind of transformation. You cannot seriously be making the statement that "the wildlife are going crazy," which I would assume you mean things like Hellboars and other mutated flora and fauna, and then on to ignore changes made in proximity to sources of Arcane magic.
    the nightwell still is related to the lifeblood of azeroth and another ttian unflience energy.

    the problem is trying to make any mutation a corruption, stop trying to make those things the same.

    For someone who throws around strawman, you're very good at passively making them. My stance is that we don't know. You are appealing to cultures that we don't know and to histories that we don't know, which doesn't make for a good example. Why you even thought to appeal to a history we don't know anything about is beyond me, and why you think you've turned something around when my stance has essentially been that we shouldn't be using them as an example because neither of us can actually give accurate information of their history is, frankly, stupid.
    We have enough of Draenei and eredar lore to taalk about, if they had suffered magic mutation trough the use of arcane magic, that would be talked, mentioned or something related, we have nothing, so you can't hold an argument of a possibility of that happening, without not even a hint of evidence.


    This is what I mean by splitting hairs. Corruption is what you are calling corruption, but corruption in forms that you, personally, don't consider corruption (i.e.: changes you think are OK) are ignored. It is the pinnacle of bad faith argumentation. We see similar negative effects for both Arcane and Fel magic (mental and physical degradation) and they both have effects on the flora and fauna in regions where it is recklessly suffused into the environment.
    Corruption is corruption, addiction is addiction.

    Addiction, to an determinated energy, can cause corruption, does not mean they are the same or means it will always lend to it..

    You are trying to make it similar when they are not, with the slight or medium amounts of fel can corrupt, while you need to have strong and/or gigantic amount of saturated arcane energy due to a titan blood to cause enough mutations that look like fel corruption.

    Youa re trying to make it like an race being turn into broken, totaly corrupted, is the same of the trolls becoming night elves due to arcane magic

    There is no corruption in the second, is a natural mutation with arcane energy acelerating the mutations of the life around the well of eternity.
    And what about the Broken on Argus? Were they also affected by the Red Mist that only occurred on Draenor? That misuse of Fel magic and being afflicted by it can lead to mental and physical degradation is not something I thought would be up for debate at this point.
    which is ttoally different from arcane


    That's, quite literally, not what you were saying, but if you're retracting the previous statements you made in order to correct it, that's fine.
    my statement is that the sunwell came from the well of eternity and that is true.


    And the ley lines emit what kind of magic? Because according to War Crimes, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, and characters in-game like Malygos, they are channels of Arcane magic. This whole argument based around it not actually being Arcane magic, but some super-special Titan magic is silly. Which, before you say is a strawman, is either what you believe or you have been intentionally making irrelevant statements about distinctions between them for the sake of making argument, or more maliciously as a means to distract.
    the onyl time we see the arcane magic causing mutations in a large scale is due to the lifeblood of azeroth, the raw arcane energy of a titian. while the small amount of fel can cause corruption, silly is how you are trying to put those in the same balance and say they are the same.


    Which is not relevant. Azerite is a source of Arcane energy, and going this route when we know it's a source of Arcane energy is silly. Even if I were to buy into that idea, the fact that you're even now resorting to the Eye of Aman'Thul is a Titan thing" doesn't matter. Are you going to argue that anything that the Titans created does not actually emit Arcane energy, even it it states that it does in every context? Fine, then I say that Outland is suffused with special Eredar Fel magic, not the normal Fel magic, and will now sit here and ask for you to provide sources to prove me wrong because apparently you're OK with being a pedant and lying by making irrelevant distinctions.
    Ah yes, the azerite, how many mutations and corruptions did the azerite made friend? can you cite then here? or they just made then better? like making the bugs in silithus more intelligent?

    Again, your problem is thinking every arcane source is the same, and every arcane source will affect things the same, regardless of their quantity and origin.

    You're simply lying. These two statements are not the same:
    yes, they are different statements, saying the same thing, im sorry you don't udnerstand

    The first is a statement that using Fel energy naturally results in transformations like Kanrethad, the second is saying that Fel energy leads you to to wanting to undergo apotheosis. These are not the same argument.
    The first statement says fel enrgy regardless, will affect the user if he go too far in an permanetly level and you can't nothing about because eventually you will become a demon

    The second statement does not say using fel amgic make you want to undergo an apothhosis, thsi si you making up, im saying if you push the boudnaries of the fel magic use, wanting more power, you will eventually become a demon, With the void, you can "push the boundaries" and still maintain control trough willpower, see Alleria and Garrosh doing that.

    You're lying about what you said again. Let's take a look at what you said. Let's take another look:
    You not understanding what i said doe snot amke me lying.

    You said, quite explicitly, that magics like Void magic do not consume life energy.
    I quite said consume in amatter of using as fuel, again, sorry you didn't get that, i though it was obviouslly, since its basic understanding of fel magic.

    Moreover, even if you were making that argument, which you weren't, using life to power magic isn't even unique to Fel, as blood sacrifice and other practices from races like the Trolls that convert life to magic. Hell, even more obviously the Blood Trolls showed us that life can be used to power what is assumed to be Void magic in their worship of G'huun. That Fel can convert souls and life into power isn't unique to it.
    Those are not the same as fel, cause blood amgic does not corrupt like fel, and is fucking pointless because that is not something Garrosh used, you are again making a strawman going off-topic with is about garroshs tance comapring fel and void

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That would be a viable point to make were his goals to have changed at any point, but that isn't really the case. What changed were his knowledge and circumstances. Garrosh's preoccupation at all times was with what benefitted the orcs and on a personal level to be the ideal orc. Even angsty Outland Garrosh was angsty because he was afraid to make any decisions as, on account of his connection to his father, any decision he did make might screw the orcs over. His entire grievances with the Alliance come down to what he saw of the state of the orcs under Thrall and it's what soured him on Thrall in general. His issues with fel also go back to his dad and the orcs at large and the specific qualities it has that make it non-viable for the interests of his people.

    His stance on fel and void then is consistent on why he approves of one and not the other and doesn't constitute any kind of hypocrisy. The Mana Bomb is even more of a non-issue as it was never even implied to be outside his wheelhouse and the way the morality of the weapon is treated is barking considering both the completely legitimate target, its strategic use and who was actually in Theramore when it hit. Was Garrosh willing to compromise his stances to a point in order to achieve his objectives? Yes, he did send the undead en masse at Gilneas, but he plainly disapproved of both the Blight and necromancy, he just had no means of enforcing this without handicapping the war effort. Since the warlock thing with Garrosh'ar and Darkspear Isle, nonsense though it is, still canonically happened, we can attribute the same to them - he had them lying around, so he might as well use them. By Siege of Orgrimmar they no longer had any utility and amounted to a completely hostile internal element. Hell, the main warlock in Orgrimmar was a Legion cultist that Thrall kept around in order to keep track of his movements, so even disregarding his history and the nature of the magic itself, it's hardly a surprise that a very different kind of manager from Thrall might not consider keeping Neeru around worth the trouble.

    The war effort at large was the driving interest of what he meant to accomplish to benefit the orcs. Garrosh did compromise on the undead and to a far lesser extent the fel, what with it being two solitary cases amidst a policy that was otherwise hostile, but the degrees to which he did so were less than his predecessors and peers when it came to their own supposed values. Unlike Thrall, he outlawed the Blight and implemented overseers with Sylvanas to ensure the war was waged in the way he wanted. Was it used anyway and his overseer subverted? Sure, but the effort was made. Compromises are part of leadership. Garrosh made far fewer of these compromises as regards his values than his predecessor and that's why I can't agree with your position. He was toppled after all in large part because he tried to apply those values on people who didn't care about them and to push his interests on states that didn't have much to gain from them. Also because of post-Tides of War collective amnesia, but anyway.
    IDK mate, there's a BIG difference between bringing Honor back to the Orcs and destroying and sacrificing everyone else in order to do so.

    He doesn't get a pat on the back for sticking to that plan when he caused so much damage to everyone else. His narrowmindnesness is not a sign of strength, but of his ability to compromise everything else for one thing. That's not a laudable thing.

    That's why he's a weak character at his core; he will sacrifice everyone else to reach his one goal, and justify himself to the end. He sacrificed the rest of the Horde for the Orcs, and by doing that he broke his own promises when he was named Warchief. He betrayed the Horde, but he would never recognize that, always putting the blase somewhere else.

    Garrosh is a fascinating character, but there's nothing admirable about his path; there's nothing to admire about someone that destroys everything else in pursuit of one goal and justifies himself every step of the way without ever admitting fault.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The heart of Y'shaarj and the void in general requires strength of character to control, but you can control it if you have the will for it. You can focus it while doing so. Garrosh was in control of the power he had in the raid. On twitter they compared it to him wearing it like a suit of armor and that checks out - after we beat him all that stuff melts off and he just carries on the same as he did before.
    Are you really in control if you are doing the bidding of the power you use, to the point your military alliance turns on you?

  13. #93
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the nightwell still is related to the lifeblood of azeroth and another ttian unflience energy.
    Again, you're making arguments you cannot substantiate to prove your point. Leylines are channels of Arcane magic, that you dispute this means you don't even know the basics of WoW (or really, any fantasy universes) lore. Again, they are talked about a bit in War Crimes, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, and are discussed a lot in material around the Nexus War. I would suggest considering reading about it before making more inane statements about how Arcane magic on Azeroth is all special uncategorized Titan magic that's not actually arcane magic.

    We have enough of Draenei and eredar lore to taalk about, if they had suffered magic mutation trough the use of arcane magic, that would be talked, mentioned or something related, we have nothing, so you can't hold an argument of a possibility of that happening, without not even a hint of evidence.
    Again, you are lying. I was not making that argument, I posed the idea to show how silly appealing to histories we do not know is, and I believe I was pretty explicit in that. Moreover, this assertion that we would know when we really only even know about the Troll/Elf relation is from meta material, and we have basically no meta material from the Eredar when they lived on Argus, sorta shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

    Corruption is corruption, addiction is addiction.
    The only difference between the corruption and addiction in this case is that one may lead to physical and mental degeneration, whereas the other inevitably leads to it. I use the term addiction because that is how it is loosely described, but it's really a physical dependency; they require constant supplies of Arcane magic or they deteriorate into a state similar to what happened to the Broken.

    You are trying to make it similar when they are not, with the slight or medium amounts of fel can corrupt, while you need to have strong and/or gigantic amount of saturated arcane energy due to a titan blood to cause enough mutations that look like fel corruption.
    No, it is due to Arcane energy. That you are still lying about these fonts of magic, which are explicitly said to be sources of Arcane energy even in meta sources, is mind boggling. They are never said to be a new, special kind of Titan magic.

    Youa re trying to make it like an race being turn into broken, totaly corrupted, is the same of the trolls becoming night elves due to arcane magic

    There is no corruption in the second, is a natural mutation with arcane energy acelerating the mutations of the life around the well of eternity.
    You've basically admitted that similar changes happen, that environmental changes happen, that changes happen to the flora and fauna, but is dissimilar because you think the changes that Arcane causes is OK.

    which is ttoally different from arcane
    You're right, they're totally different. What happened to the withered left them completely incapable of having normal interactions with other mortals as they physically and mentally regressed into savage husks of their former selves, whereas the Broken mentally and physically regressed and still had some coherence of thought and memory. The mental and physical regression still occurred in both cases, but was much more damaging for the withered.

    my statement is that the sunwell came from the well of eternity and that is true.
    When I mentioned the Sunwell, Nightwell, and Well of Eternity, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    oh right, all the wells who came from the nightwell, hur dur.
    I corrected you by stating that the Sunwell did not come from the Nightwell as you had asserted prior, and you linked something regarding the creation of the Sunwell, which I can either assume was to backup my statement or because of a misunderstanding. You seemed to acknowledge your mistake in saying that the Nightwell came from the Well of Eternity here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    It was a mistake but they were made from the ley lanes, witch are the "veins" of the azeroth ttian,:.
    To which I respond with what essentially amounted to saying that if you're making a retraction, that's fine. Now it appears you're trying to gaslight by saying that you were only trying to say that the Sunwell came from the Well of Eternity, which was not what you were initially saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the onyl time we see the arcane magic causing mutations in a large scale is due to the lifeblood of azeroth, the raw arcane energy of a titian. while the small amount of fel can cause corruption, silly is how you are trying to put those in the same balance and say they are the same.

    Ah yes, the azerite, how many mutations and corruptions did the azerite made friend? can you cite then here? or they just made then better? like making the bugs in silithus more intelligent?

    Again, your problem is thinking every arcane source is the same, and every arcane source will affect things the same, regardless of their quantity and origin.
    Yeah, I point to large fonts of Arcane energy because it's almost like it's very rare to see a reckless use of Arcane energy causing it to become suffused into the environment in game because of the lessons learned during the First Invasion. Strange how recklessly used magic has a different effect on its environment than when it isn't recklessly used isn't it? Almost like the example I gave earlier of storing toxic waste had a meaning that you just didn't understand. Even the examples you wanted me to give, like from Dalaran, wouldn't actually suffice for your skewed understanding of the lore because Dalaran was built on a leyline. By your logic, no Arcane accomplishments exist on Azeroth because virtually every place of power is (1) based on a leyline or (2) based in an area near Azerite.

    Moreover, for Azerite, you know it predates Battle for Azeroth, right? If you knew the lore, you would know that Azerite caused the creation of the Elves and the Arcane dependency of the Blood Elves. That's what made the Well of Eternity a powerful font of Arcane energy... Azerite. Like, they even call Azerite arcane crystals in-game until they are known to be Azerite, because it contains potent Arcane energy.

    yes, they are different statements, saying the same thing, im sorry you don't udnerstand

    The first statement says fel enrgy regardless, will affect the user if he go too far in an permanetly level and you can't nothing about because eventually you will become a demon

    The second statement does not say using fel amgic make you want to undergo an apothhosis, thsi si you making up, im saying if you push the boudnaries of the fel magic use, wanting more power, you will eventually become a demon, With the void, you can "push the boundaries" and still maintain control trough willpower, see Alleria and Garrosh doing that.
    I said they're different statements, but they're two statements you made about the same character to justify their actions and have acted like they're the same argument. The first you never substantiated, you just initially asserted that Kanrethad changed because of his use of Fel magic, which is why you changed to the second after being called out for knowing nothing about the character (i.e.: asserting that the change happened due to use of Fel magic, not because he was intentionally undergoing apotheosis).

    Regarding your second point, let's clarify something. When you refer to someone like Kanrethad within a discussion about changes caused by magic, such as the apotheosis he underwent, and you make claims about him while saying that Fel causes people to crave power, the logical end result is that you are saying that people seek apotheosis to increase their power. That is Kanrethad's story, which I don't believe you know, given as your position has changed over the various posts, including some blatant misapprehensions about how he transformed, where you initially asserted that it was simply by virtue of his proximity to Fel magic. Even ignoring Kanrethad, it doesn't logically follow because people crave power with other sources and many, such as the Void Elves, undergo physical and mental changes because of the change.

    You not understanding what i said doe snot amke me lying.
    You're right, you lying is what means your lying, you wanting to appeal to things we simply do not know because they are not covered in the meta makes you bad faith, and your substitution of headcanon regarding Arcane magic compounds both of those problems.

    Those are not the same as fel, cause blood amgic does not corrupt like fel, and is fucking pointless because that is not something Garrosh used, you are again making a strawman going off-topic with is about garroshs tance comapring fel and void
    You're the one who started the whole "Fel is especially bad" argument, and are now unhappy because you cannot defend it. If this entire back-and-forth has been you trying to convey Garrosh's thoughts on why Fel magic is bad when most of what we know about Fel magic is meta material that virtually no one in the lore fully understands, I don't know what to say about that because Garrosh did not display a huge breadth of knowledge.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2021-07-19 at 06:34 AM.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think what ultimately makes the entire premise falls flat is that we never see this supposed difference between Void and Fel. First the True Horde isn't treated as any different or better than the WC1&2 one, in-game it's just a pack of mooks and raid bosses who are the evils of evil, with heavy-handed Nazi undertones even so that you're damn sure who the baddie is. Void is supposedly more controllable, but we see Orcs overcome by the Heart's power in SoO itself or downright turned into consumed monsters. Fel is supposed to always corrupt, but there are a bunch of, if not nice, then at least not lolevil Warlocks running around, especially in Legion, and the class isn't treated as evil or even particularly ruthless by default at all, that would be the Death Knights. Warlocks keep demons as shackled pets, True Horde keeps a bunch of Sha monsters around, and some sentient Void followers as well. Fel corruption also isn't that permanent given that Orcs generally got over it between WC2 and 3. The Void Elves talk about keeping the whispers at bay (all the time) and were all corrupted by accident or outside forces, but by contrast the True Horde seems more keen on juicing up on as much of the stuff as they can get their hands on, not unlike their predecessors with the demon blood. Garrosh is supposed to be in total control, but spends his entire boss fight ranting and raving about prophecies, whispers, and doing a rather impressive Khorne impersonation RE mountains of skulls + rivers of blood. He never does that before or after his boss fight..
    The point that there can be good warlocks or demon hunters or what have you or that the Void can turn you into a tentacle monster is completely irrelevant to my point, so much so that I've gotten at it myself. Fel corruption is physical corruption, irrespective of will. To put it in the most simple available terms - when Garrosh stops being covered in ooze he turns into an average guy and when the True Horde ceases to be the Underhold remains completely usable by the Horde and uncorrupted. No matter what Illidan does post-Skull of Gul'dan on the other hand he'll always have wings and Outland will always remain fallow even if all the orcs who're still there no longer practice fel magic. The post-WC2 orcs suffered a withdrawal effect that we don't see any of with say, the WoD Shadowmoon or Warsong who used void, purely because of the physical after effects fel. The whole reason orcs are still green is because fel corruption takes an extremely long time to be rid of even once the one who induced it is gone. Meanwhile, even the most powerful void creatures like N'zoth or Y'shaarj maintain their domain as expressions of their will - when they're fully gone, so are (most of) the sha and Ny'alotha.

    This is a difference that's fairly consistently demonstrated. One can disagree with the conclusions drawn by Garrosh in the process - as you point out, most people would still fail to enforce their will and lose their shit, and whether they leech off of the environment or turn green is kind of a moot point when you have to shackle them to keep them from eating their peers. Likewise, while we meme otherwise there's a significant chance that the Heart would wear him down over time if Alleria is any indication purely because controlling it takes 24/7 vigilance and even if it didn't, most of his followers wouldn't have that backbone. Also, there's also how for everyone who isn't the orcs themselves there's no appreciable difference between taking over the world because a squid told you and because you really want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    IDK mate, there's a BIG difference between bringing Honor back to the Orcs and destroying and sacrificing everyone else in order to do so.

    Garrosh is a fascinating character, but there's nothing admirable about his path; there's nothing to admire about someone that destroys everything else in pursuit of one goal and justifies himself every step of the way without ever admitting fault.
    The corrollary to the main point I'm getting at is that Garrosh's decision making regarding fel and the void does relate to orcish honor pretty directly, just of a different kind than the more Frostwolf-based honor code Thrall was using. The orcish preoccupation with control, mastery over one's fate and success in battle doesn't go back to just the Legion but to their time as slaves of the ogres. We see it with Grom on the tree taunted by the Gorian Emperor and by Kargath's rebellion. The main thing there though is that the takeaway of the orcs at large, Frostwolves exempted, isn't that it's bad to bring people down in general, but that the lowest thing you can do to someone is to put them under your control. Hence "victory or death", either you succeed on your own weight by your own abilities (and that of your group) or you die, also on your own terms. Captivity and being unable to carry your own weight breaks the paradigm and it's why peons, slaves and deserters are treated so poorly. The code Garrosh and later the Iron Horde/Mag'har implemented is based on this sentiment. It's a pretty unpleasant sentiment in a lot of regards, but it's just as much if not more based on the orcish background and honor code than what Thrall did. It's why Garrosh tells Thrall to stuff it when he's talking about honor to him in SoO - their honor codes are very different, but they both appeal to that orcish trait.
    He doesn't get a pat on the back for sticking to that plan when he caused so much damage to everyone else. His narrowmindnesness is not a sign of strength, but of his ability to compromise everything else for one thing. That's not a laudable thing.

    That's why he's a weak character at his core; he will sacrifice everyone else to reach his one goal, and justify himself to the end. He sacrificed the rest of the Horde for the Orcs, and by doing that he broke his own promises when he was named Warchief. He betrayed the Horde, but he would never recognize that, always putting the blase somewhere else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Are you really in control if you are doing the bidding of the power you use, to the point your military alliance turns on you?
    Putting these two together, since they're the same sentiment. Being willing to compromise your code in order to benefit the ones under your care I'd call a pretty laudable trait. Likewise, on pretty much every instance he was the one screwed over by his allies first. Despite the orcs carrying the Darkspear and the Darkspear being threatened by the Alliance Vol'jin's first response to a war that Garrosh didn't even declare first was to talk shit and then threaten him with death. Cairne's first response to the Ashenvale false flag is to barge into the throne room, slap him and challenge him to an honor duel. Sylvanas goes without saying and the Blood Elves had to have their arms wrung by Sylvanas to even contribute at all against the Lich King, their mortal nemesis, let alone against the Alliance. Garrosh was given control of a faction where people had said all the same words as the orcs, but save for the shamanism of the trolls and tauren, didn't actually have that much in common and who didn't find the orcish cause their own, despite the orcs seeing the cause of their allies as their own and being the reason behind the troll and tauren's survival. By the time Tides of War rolled around leaders were coming together in secret meetings to plot his overthrow on the basis of an attack against a foe that had attacked their territories, not his, his overseers in the Eastern Kingdoms like Cromush were subverted by Sylvanas and the blood elves outside of a few standouts like Thalen and Fanlyr were still 100% useless.

    This is not to say all of his issues with the other leaders are down to them being intractable ungrateful morons or actively seditious. Only most of them. A craftier leader who wasn't as abrasive to all of them at the drop of a hat and actually understood that he couldn't both impose the orcish way of life on them and get them to achieve his goals to benefit the orcs would've been significantly more successful. He went the entirely opposite direction to Thrall to his own detriment. Thrall created a Horde where few had much of anything in common and just happened to be his personal friends who wouldn't lift a finger when the rubber hit the road and his own race were being driven into the ground. Garrosh neither gave the component races any reason to come along except the Alliance threatening them as well, which they soundly ignored anyway in the case of Baine and Vol'jin, nor had the means to subjugate them to get them to do what he wanted, so their relations were shredded and neither he nor they got anything out of it. The one exception was his accord with Bob against Sylvanas leading up to Tides of War, but that too was sabotaged by Garrosh's failure to balance his opponents against each other in favor of making himself their biggest problem.

    Failing to get his allies along to his goals is a significant failure of leadership on Garrosh's part and pretty much doomed him and his personality and leadership style are big reasons for it. But he was dealt a very shit hand and no Warchief managed to get the Horde near entirely on board with whatever they wanted to do until Sylvanas's inexplicable success at it in BFA.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #95
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The point that there can be good warlocks or demon hunters or what have you or that the Void can turn you into a tentacle monster is completely irrelevant to my point, so much so that I've gotten at it myself. Fel corruption is physical corruption, irrespective of will. To put it in the most simple available terms - when Garrosh stops being covered in ooze he turns into an average guy and when the True Horde ceases to be the Underhold remains completely usable by the Horde and uncorrupted. No matter what Illidan does post-Skull of Gul'dan on the other hand he'll always have wings and Outland will always remain fallow even if all the orcs who're still there no longer practice fel magic. The post-WC2 orcs suffered a withdrawal effect that we don't see any of with say, the WoD Shadowmoon or Warsong who used void, purely because of the physical after effects fel. The whole reason orcs are still green is because fel corruption takes an extremely long time to be rid of even once the one who induced it is gone. Meanwhile, even the most powerful void creatures like N'zoth or Y'shaarj maintain their domain as expressions of their will - when they're fully gone, so are (most of) the sha and Ny'alotha.
    I just want to put a couple things out there:
    1) Garrosh is likely the exception and not the rule, if only because he appears to have not really undergone any form of apotheosis. I put a few examples of permanent changes out there previously, but Illidan is really more akin to characters like Lord Stormsong or Xavius, both of which underwent a permanent change. Unfortunately, there are very few examples of characters undergoing an intentional, self-motivated transformation, and is usually power granted to them by someone else.
    2) The subsequent fatigue and haze that the Orcs felt wasn't really a result of just proximity to Fel magic, but more of a result of withdrawal from the magic that had empowered them (such as Mannoroth's blood), at least as hypothesized by Antonidas.
    3) Outland will never heal, but this is less because of the lingering effects of Fel magic in this circumstance. Currently I believe it is partially or completely stuck within the Twisting Nether, and I believe it is even currently in a state of degradation because of this.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    1) Garrosh is likely the exception and not the rule, if only because he appears to have not really undergone any form of apotheosis. I put a few examples of permanent changes out there previously, but Illidan is really more akin to characters like Lord Stormsong or Xavius, both of which underwent a permanent change. Unfortunately, there are very few examples of characters undergoing an intentional, self-motivated transformation, and is usually power granted to them by someone else.
    I'll admit I've not really followed the side debate going o with you and Syegfryed, but when it comes to the difference between Garrosh and Alleria as compared to someone like Lord Stormsong, you pretty much say what I was going to say at the end. Lord Stormsong takes on a form chosen for him by N'zoth, he submits to another's will and changes accordingly. Garrosh and Alleria are able to use all the same powers as an exercise of their own will. Arguably Malkorok as well since he has no attitude change. With fel, a self-motivated change is still a permanent one. Illidan ate the Skull and the fel magic involved permanently changed him despite him being mentally the same. Garrosh and Alleria, as the top users controlling void magic we know kept both their form and and their mindset, they just have to struggle to keep it hence why Alleria gets whispers telling her to kill her family and Garrosh has visions. The role of self-determination and willpower in each is different. We know void magic can go so far as to manifest places and people out of the user's vision of the world. The Sha of Fear with its sea, Y'shaarj with its temples, Garrosh with the fully functional fleet in the alternate universe conquered Stormwind and obviously N'zoth.

    2) The subsequent fatigue and haze that the Orcs felt wasn't really a result of just proximity to Fel magic, but more of a result of withdrawal from the magic that had empowered them (such as Mannoroth's blood), at least as hypothesized by Antonidas.
    The book emphasizes the point I'm getting at regarding fel magic having a physical effect and withdrawal. Fel magic doesn't just change them in the moment or due to the curse, but has lasting effects even once the proximate cause in Mannoroth is away:

    Antonidas theorized that the orcs' communal lethargy was not actually a disease, but a consequence of racial withdrawal from the volatile warlock magics that had made them fearsome, bloodlusted warriors.
    We didn't see this with void users. There you're either full tentacle monsters or a normal person.

    3) Outland will never heal, but this is less because of the lingering effects of Fel magic in this circumstance. Currently I believe it is partially or completely stuck within the Twisting Nether, and I believe it is even currently in a state of degradation because of this.
    The Twisting Nether is the origin point for demons precisely because it's saturated with clashing void and light, which (also) results in fel. While the world detonating due to Ner'zhul's portals obviously fucked it up one of the reasons it's falling apart on top of that is because it's partially in a place that's constantly sucking out the world's life force. I.e, it being partially in the Twisting Nether supports rather than debunks the fact that it's screwed due to demonic magic.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Are you really in control if you are doing the bidding of the power you use, to the point your military alliance turns on you?
    Except most of his military had turned on him before he got it, and the rest who did turn on him did so when he got it, destroying the Vale.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Fel is supposed to always corrupt, but there are a bunch of, if not nice, then at least not lolevil Warlocks running around, especially in Legion, and the class isn't treated as evil or even particularly ruthless by default at all, that would be the Death Knights.
    Speaking as a Death Knight stan.

    They had it comming.
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  19. #99
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll admit I've not really followed the side debate going o with you and Syegfryed,
    The back and forth has basically deteriorated into claims that anything that is impacted by Azerite (by the way of the Sunwell or Well of Eternity), is on a Leyline (such as the Nightwell), or is using a Titan artifact (such as the Eye of Aman'Thul) should be disregarded as an aftereffect of Arcane magic (such as the affliction of Elven races deterioration into Withered with resembles what occurred with the Broken, or mutations in flora and fauna, etc.) when discussing the effects magic has on the environment. Frankly, it's not worth following.

    Garrosh and Alleria as compared to someone like Lord Stormsong, you pretty much say what I was going to say at the end. Lord Stormsong takes on a form chosen for him by N'zoth, he submits to another's will and changes accordingly. Garrosh and Alleria are able to use all the same powers as an exercise of their own will. Arguably Malkorok as well since he has no attitude change. With fel, a self-motivated change is still a permanent one. Illidan ate the Skull and the fel magic involved permanently changed him despite him being mentally the same. Garrosh and Alleria, as the top users controlling void magic we know kept both their form and and their mindset, they just have to struggle to keep it hence why Alleria gets whispers telling her to kill her family and Garrosh has visions. The role of self-determination and willpower in each is different. We know void magic can go so far as to manifest places and people out of the user's vision of the world. The Sha of Fear with its sea, Y'shaarj with its temples, Garrosh with the fully functional fleet in the alternate universe conquered Stormwind and obviously N'zoth.
    It's a fair comparison. The main things people would have to point to for most changes are going to be environmental changes, as we even see with things like the Void that it can still mutate the environment, but most people seem to undergo different kinds of changes, typically psychological. What complicates it even further is that we see that there is some transitive factor that allows a being of Death to become another type of being (most notably the Nathrezim) and we even see the same with Demons (Xe'ra looking to either transform Illidan into a being of Light or restore his "mortality" by removing the taint), which makes it super weird that we don't see more instances with mortals.

    That said, the instance with Garrosh specifically could possibly be due to the influence being Y'shaarj. We saw throughout Pandaria that the Sha in all instances of infestation have the mutations afflicted upon their host revert on death, so far as I'm aware. It's possible that there's something specific about this kind of "corruption", though this is obviously this is 100% speculation.

    The book emphasizes the point I'm getting at regarding fel magic having a physical effect and withdrawal. Fel magic doesn't just change them in the moment or due to the curse, but has lasting effects even once the proximate cause in Mannoroth is away:

    We didn't see this with void users. There you're either full tentacle monsters or a normal person.
    This could just be me being a Pedant Peter, but I would be hesitant to say that this is an effect of Fel magic more generally. It strikes me as something more tied to the application of magic than the magic used (i.e.: long term effects of enhanced strength, aggression, etc., suddenly stopping), which I don't think we've ever seen an analog to from any other kind of magic. Obviously that's not a hill I would want to die on though.

    The Twisting Nether is the origin point for demons precisely because it's saturated with clashing void and light, which (also) results in fel. While the world detonating due to Ner'zhul's portals obviously fucked it up one of the reasons it's falling apart on top of that is because it's partially in a place that's constantly sucking out the world's life force. I.e, it being partially in the Twisting Nether supports rather than debunks the fact that it's screwed due to demonic magic.
    The reason I bring this up is because I think there's a difference between there being a wound and there being a wound in an environment that allows it to fester. The Blasted Lands is a good example of an area that isn't really anywhere remarkable that had a heavy demonic taint, and we can see a slow progress to it healing with the Tainted Forest, which still has issues but is slowly healing. Felwood being an analog to show the persistence of the corruption in an area that still suffers from heavy demonic infestation, but is sort of in a corruption stasis. Outland is probably on the latter half of that, likely being far more tainted by Fel than Felwood, but instead of being in a form of stasis like we see on Azeroth, it is in a state of decline. This is probably because it is in a place that will continue to bombard it with additional Fel energy (i.e.: it cannot reach a state of equilibrium because more Fel magic is constantly being added to the system), and if not because of it at least exacerbated by it.

    Ironically, given the Void is typically seen as the more dangerous, we do see some instances of "corruption" by other cosmic forces, and I think the most notable recently is actually the Light. It has permanently scarred Revendreth in a way that Denathrius is either unable or unwilling to deal with. It would be good to know if this is an effect specific to competing cosmic forces or if it is applicable to the mortal realm too.
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  20. #100
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Again, you're making arguments you cannot substantiate to prove your point. Leylines are channels of Arcane magic, that you dispute this means you don't even know the basics of WoW (or really, any fantasy universes) lore. Again, they are talked about a bit in War Crimes, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, and are discussed a lot in material around the Nexus War. I would suggest considering reading about it before making more inane statements about how Arcane magic on Azeroth is all special uncategorized Titan magic that's not actually arcane magic.
    Ley lines are the lifeblood of azeroth, the titan "blood", i did proved with a quote, you ignored that is your problem.

    Again, you are lying. I was not making that argument,
    So it was a weak attempt of red hearing all right

    The only difference between the corruption and addiction in this case is that one may lead to physical and mental degeneration, whereas the other inevitably leads to it. I use the term addiction because that is how it is loosely described, but it's really a physical dependency; they require constant supplies of Arcane magic or they deteriorate into a state similar to what happened to the Broken.
    In the end, you were wrong and tried to make then the same, because reasons.

    No, it is due to Arcane energy. That you are still lying about these fonts of magic, which are explicitly said to be sources of Arcane energy even in meta sources, is mind boggling. They are never said to be a new, special kind of Titan magic.
    It is not arcane energy alone, you are again, pretending all sources of arcane magic are somehow the same.

    The lifeblood of a titan is arcane energy but in higher levels, those are the only ones that show to be potent enough to mutate and cause addiction, not corruption.


    You've basically admitted that similar changes happen, that environmental changes happen, that changes happen to the flora and fauna, but is dissimilar because you think the changes that Arcane causes is OK.
    Yes changes happened, just because "changes happened" don't mean they are the same, so rly, stop trying to make then the same.

    And yes, one is ok, because the last it can do is make you addict to it, which is something you can turn around.

    Fel corruption is permanent and makes you a demon or distorted being.

    Trying to comapare a troll becoming a night elf and a draenei being fucked up by fel and becoming broken is just bonkers.

    You're right, they're totally different. What happened to the withered left them completely incapable of having normal interactions with other mortals as they physically and mentally regressed into savage husks of their former selves, whereas the Broken mentally and physically regressed and still had some coherence of thought and memory. The mental and physical regression still occurred in both cases, but was much more damaging for the withered.
    do you realise the withered are the ones without arcane energy to feed right? the absence of arcane energy changed then while with the broken the presence of fel energy changed then.


    And you are saying this is the same thing because "changes happened"


    I corrected you by stating that the Sunwell did not come from the Nightwell as you had asserted prior
    That was clearly a typo and i confused the damn wells, you are nitpicking that because its the only thingk youc an hold to not lost ana argument

    Yeah, I point to large fonts of Arcane energy because it's almost like it's very rare to see a reckless use of Arcane energy causing it to become suffused into the environment in game because of the lessons learned during the First Invasion.
    hat lessons to the first invasion? what about other races who were not presented in the first invasion? they did get by fax or something?

    Even the examples you wanted me to give, like from Dalaran, wouldn't actually suffice for your skewed understanding of the lore because Dalaran was built on a leyline. By your logic, no Arcane accomplishments exist on Azeroth because virtually every place of power is (1) based on a leyline or (2) based in an area near Azerite.
    And why the humans of dalaran are not being changed, affected or corrupted by arcane magic then?

    Because fucking arcane energy does not work like fel energy.
    Moreover, for Azerite, you know it predates Battle for Azeroth, right? If you knew the lore, you would know that Azerite caused the creation of the Elves and the Arcane dependency of the Blood Elves. That's what made the Well of Eternity a powerful font of Arcane energy... Azerite. Like, they even call Azerite arcane crystals in-game until they are known to be Azerite, because it contains potent Arcane energy.
    Azerite as we know, is the name given to the crystallized blood, so no the "azerite" didn't caused the creation of then.

    And yes, i know that, that was some weird flex you tried to do, like you just read on wowpedia

    (i.e.: asserting that the change happened due to use of Fel magic, not because he was intentionally undergoing apotheosis).
    hum? he changed literally because he consumed too much fel energy
    Regarding your second point, let's clarify something. When you refer to someone like Kanrethad within a discussion about changes caused by magic, such as the apotheosis he underwent, and you make claims about him while saying that Fel causes people to crave power,
    I didn't say fel cause people to crave for power, you made that assumption from what i said.
    the logical end result is that you are saying that people seek apotheosis to increase their power. That is Kanrethad's story, which I don't believe you know,
    Again, you are trying too much to flex, over something you barely know, you already show to not know how fel works, and the difference between fel and other energies, i did that quest myself, so don't try

    given as your position has changed over the various posts, including some blatant misapprehensions about how he transformed, where you initially asserted that it was simply by virtue of his proximity to Fel magic. Even ignoring Kanrethad, it doesn't logically follow because people crave power with other sources and many, such as the Void Elves, undergo physical and mental changes because of the change
    .

    I never said he changed due to his proximity to fel, you are straight up mixing different statement and trying to put like they are the same.

    You're right, you lying is what means your lying, you wanting to appeal to things we simply do not know because they are not covered in the meta makes you bad faith, and your substitution of headcanon regarding Arcane magic compounds both of those problems.
    there is no lie here, except the ones you tried to make like i was saying, simple because you misunderstand things and flat out not knowing about it.

    You're the one who started the whole "Fel is especially bad" argument, and are now unhappy because you cannot defend it. If this entire back-and-forth has been you trying to convey Garrosh's thoughts on why Fel magic is bad when most of what we know about Fel magic is meta material that virtually no one in the lore fully understands, I don't know what to say about that because Garrosh did not display a huge breadth of knowledge.
    Fel it is especially bad, do you play the game? you are trying to look like you know a lot but you don't know the fundamentals of fel energy?

    1- Fel fuel is literally Life and souls
    2- Fel work just like radiation
    3- The mere presence of fel energies, even the small amounts is enough to affect people nearby(The blood elves just being close by fel energies got affected, that does not happen with arcane energy)
    4- Fel energy corruption is much worse(showed by the broken)
    5- Eventually Fel energy turns you into a demon.

    You lame ass attempt to put arcane energy in the same patamar because some gigantic sources of arcane energy changed some races(not nearly in a bad or detrimental way like fel did) and give then addiction is just pathetic.

    And yes, we are talking about Garrosh stance, and with the knowledge the characters have, Void was better than fel, as one, you can control it and tamed with your will, and you don't become a demon in the end.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-07-19 at 09:22 AM.

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